Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

[Der Alte]

But.but.but....

Do you have some kind of objection here or just spamming? Were you to read my post in context you would learn that the "but" introduced a part of your post which was run up together with a quote from BAG but this second part was not part of the BAG definition. I explained this in my post. Thus proving once again that you don't even read my posts. You certainly don't reply to any of them in a meaningful manner.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What a bunch of babbling.

A true master of the obvious.
Believe it or not I learned long ago that He-man is not orthodox. Why someone UT would feel the need to reply to every post that is explaining the OT view with a response indicating that they do not agree with the OT is beyond me. I really get that they do not agree.

As there is also an abundant and obvious inability to answer questions relating how their view makes sense to them (since it does not to me) I guess we are left to wonder at these things. At least it makes the threads colorful

 

[Der Alte]

A true master of the obvious.
Believe it or not I learned long ago that He-man is not orthodox.

No! Tell me it it ain't so?

Why someone UT would feel the need to reply to every post explaining the OT view that they do no agree it is beyond me.
As there is also an abundant and obvious inability to answer questions relating how their view makes sense to them (since it does not to me) I guess we are left to wonder at these things. At least it makes the threads colorful

I agree with this.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Mistake.

Greatest post yet!




.

 

[Der Alte]

No discussion can take place when your angry. And the discussion is not about me. You have no reason to accuse me of not checking hebrew. Everytime I disagree with some people false accusations begin. How about we just agree to disagree?

[SIZE="+1"]Post #525 BAG is correct but[/SIZE],

But.but.but....

How about we do not cheat and you do not know Hebrew anymore than you do Greek?

[SIZE="+1"]Good! When are going to stop? You have the chutzpah, the blatant gall to imply that I am cheating on something when in this post you quote me out-of-context and make it appear that I was replying to cowgirl when I was replying to you. Here is the post where I said “BAG is correct.”[/SIZE]

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich definition: ordeal;
βάσανος ου, η, (Theognis, Pind. + orig. 'touchstone, test'; pap.,LXX, En., Philo, Jos. Ant. 12, 255; 13, 241). BAG Page 134

[size=+1]BAG is correct but,

1. An ancient form of test to determine guilt or innocence, by appealing to a supernatural decision, -- once common in Europe, and still practiced in the East and by savage tribes. Any severe trial, or test; a painful experience.

This is not a part of the BAG definition. Just something you stuck in to make it fit your assumptions/presuppositions.[/size]

[SIZE="+1"]This second part, which begins with “An ancient form” is not part of the BAG definition but you ran them together to make it appear that it was. When are you going to start properly identifying all your sources and stop taking parts of one source and running it together with another source making it appear they are one source?

I know enough Hebrew and Greek to know when some people are trying to mislead and deceive other people with false definitions and interpretations, much as you have done, several times, with the Greek word ζιζάνιον. It does not, never has and never will mean “cheat” as in swindle, bilk, deceive, etc. People who don’t know Greek any better than this should not try to deceive people with false definitions.[/SIZE]

 

[Timothew]

[SIZE=+1]
I know enough Hebrew and Greek to know when some people are trying to mislead and deceive other people with false definitions and interpretations, much as you have done, several times, with the Greek word ζιζάνιον. It does not, never has and never will mean “cheat” as in swindle, bilk, deceive, etc. People who don’t know Greek any better than this should not try to deceive people with false definitions.[/SIZE]

I looked back over the thread and didn't see where anyone defined zizanion as cheat in the sense of swindle, bilk or deceive. It is possible that I just missed it. Isn't "cheat" an old word for a kind of weed in a wheat field?

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for your thoughts now would you mind also explaining how DEATH IS SWALLED UP IN VICTORY if hellfire existed at all. There is no victory in a hellfire. What you are teaching is sin won and God lost but I forgive you for you not know what you do.

and might you also explain how is hell is cast away with or done away with in the lake of fire how then could anyone be tortured forever in it if its destroyed. And if hell is the lake of fire how on earth can be even be cast into itself.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

Physical death is swallowed up. Read you proof text in context. Paul is quoting Isa 25:8.

Isa 25:8-10
(8) He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
(9) And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
(10) For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.​

Although death is swallowed up in victory God still treads down His enemies.

This is the death your proof text refers to. Death is equated with the grave.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?​

Physical “death is swallowed up in victory” and everyone is resurrected to face the judgment.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Is Death and hell cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and destroyed? Death is the point in time cessation of life. It has no physical substance it cannot be cast anywhere. Death is not alive, it cannot and never has died the first death, so it cannot die a second death.

Hades is either the grave or hell, God can cast it into the lake of fire. But hades is not alive it cannot and never has died a first death, so it cannot die a second death.

There is a scriptural solution.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

This death and hell are living beings. I call them the angel of death, first seen in Exodus, and the demon/angel of hell. This death cannot be the physical death that everyone faces, he can only kill 1/4 of the earth. When their purpose is completed, they will be cast into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

Where are all the warnings about burning forever? If it was the doctrine of Jesus, why not explicitly say "torment that lasts forever" instead of death and destruction or ruin etc? For something so infinitely important like never ending torture... I would expect a direct irrefutable quote.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Worm that never dies, fire that never ends was not explicit enough I guess. If those things do not reflect an unending pain, what did He mean by having those things never ending?

 

[Timothew]

Worm that never dies, fire that never ends was not explicit enough I guess. If those things do not reflect an unending pain, what did He mean by having those things never ending?

Isaiah 66

 

[BrianJK]

Isaiah 66

What do you believe was the purpose of the allusion to that particular Scripture there?

 

[Der Alte]

Where are all the warnings about burning forever? If it was the doctrine of Jesus, why not explicitly say "torment that lasts forever" instead of death and destruction or ruin etc? For something so infinitely important like never ending torture... I would expect a direct irrefutable quote.

Jesus was talking to first century jews not 21st century Christians. The Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending punishment, they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom, that is what they understood when Jesus said "eternal punishment" "the fire that is not extinguished and their worm does not die," and "in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth" Jesus said or did nothing which contradicted the Jewish belief

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Talmud Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Timothew]

What do you believe was the purpose of the allusion to that particular Scripture there?

Isaiah 66 specifically says that the fire burns dead bodies and the worms eat dead bodies. And this is something that the Ectists should already know, so I just said "Isaiah 66" as a reminder to them.

 

[BrianJK]

Isaiah 66 specifically says that the fire burns dead bodies and the worms eat dead bodies. And this is something that the Ectists should already know, so I just said "Isaiah 66" as a reminder to them.

Sorry I meant what do you believe was the purpose of using that same language in the NT passages in which the language is used?

 

[Der Alte]

See what the 1st century Jews believed about Isaiah 66 in this [post=64191201]Post[/post], above.

 

[Gospel Guy]

Worm that never dies, fire that never ends was not explicit enough I guess. If those things do not reflect an unending pain, what did He mean by having those things never ending?

According to these guys that don't believe some part of the Bible... apparently the Lord was on break and was just telling meaningless stories until break time was over

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Isaiah 66 specifically says that the fire burns dead bodies and the worms eat dead bodies. And this is something that the Ectists should already know, so I just said "Isaiah 66" as a reminder to them.

So the contention is that when Jesus was contrasting people entering the kingdom of God, compared to people being cast somewhere else - we are suppose to think of eternal life in Heaven being contrasted the fate of the damned - as dead bodies being eaten by worms that never die and a fire that never ends. Is that it?

Since the concept is the damned have gone "poof" how is the reward of eternal life in Heaven able to be contrasted with something that has nothing to do with going "poof". And for that matter if the damned went "poof" whose bodies are being consumed by worm and fire that never die?

Did Jesus not know that a fire that never goes out and worms that never die feasting on dead bodies would eventually run out of material to consume?
Why would Jesus ask people to imagine something that had no meaning/purpose?

Did Jesus not realize that a person going "poof" could not be said to care what happens to a pile of a dead bodies?

Or for that matter a person who has gone "poof" cannot be said to have any care, did He not realize that?

Is Jesus seen as having a habit of speaking in terms that make no sense at all?

 

[Gospel Guy]

Why would Jesus ask people to imagine something that had no meaning/purpose?

Did Jesus not realize that a person going "poof" could not be said to care what happens to a pile of a dead bodies?

Or for that matter a person who has gone "poof" cannot be said to have any care, did He not realize that?

Is Jesus seen as having a habit of speaking in terms that make no sense at all?

Like I've been saying... some folks just refuse to accept what Jesus says!

They get nine kinds of bent out of shape if you tell them they are calling Jesus a liar or they are in unbelief on this subject... but, they still refuse to believe what Jesus says.

Some er just gonna have to find out fo themselves

 

[Timothew]

Sorry I meant what do you believe was the purpose of using that same language in the NT passages in which the language is used?

To call to mind what the scriptures said. Jesus did that a lot. Eli Eli Lama Sabbachthani - Psalm 22

 

[Timothew]

Like I've been saying... some folks just refuse to accept what Jesus says!

They get nine kinds of bent out of shape if you tell them they are calling Jesus a liar or they are in unbelief on this subject... but, they still refuse to believe what Jesus says.

Some er just gonna have to find out fo themselves

You don't believe Jesus. Matt 7:13, Matt 10:28.

You will accept the truth on Judgment Day. Until then you can believe whatever you want.