Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

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Gospel Guy

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I have studied it long enough to know IT DONT EXIST. A knowledge you are still lacking.

Apparently, you are one of those that pick and choose which scripture you wanna believe... and then claim the ones you don't like or lies that got put in their by mistake... :doh:

Here, let me give you some Bible references on this subject so you can know hell IS real according to Jesus... that you obviously have a problem believing to be truthful:


"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8)

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17)

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

"unquenchable, inextinguishable"
"not quenched"
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."
"unquenched, unquenchable"
"that cannot be put out"
"inextinguishable"

Daniel 12:2
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up. some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt

And of course there's the Rich Man and Lazarus – Luke 16:19-31... Jesus said this was the account of a “certain” rich man, and a “certain” poor man so this is a real account where Jesus says the rich man is in hell, and he is tormented.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is pretty well the smoking gun right here... if God is going to put those in hell asleep and they cease to exist, then why is Jesus saying they will experience the same everlasting fire satan and his devils will experience? Certainly, satan and his devils aren't going to be put to sleep and Jesus is saying those that are going there with him will be in "everlasting fire" meaning they gonna be burning forever and ever.

Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Also, the Bible warns of the eternity and permanency of hell!

everlasting fire ’ Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment ’ Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains ’ Jude 1:6
eternal damnation ’ Mark 3:29
eternal judgment ’ Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire ’ Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire ’ Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched ’ Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable ’ Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever ’ 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever ’ Jude 1:13


The lake of fire is said to be the second death in two verses. Rev 21:14, 21:8. But the lake of fire is not synonymous with death. Three beings are thrown into the lake of fire but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. At least one of those beings is a person, the false prophet.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:15 and 21:8 show that many people will be thrown into the lake of fire. But Rev never says that anyone dies (cease to exist as some try to teach) in the lake of fire and it says nothing about changing man's sinful nature.

Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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texascowgirl

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everlasting fire ’ Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment ’ Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains ’ Jude 1:6
eternal damnation ’ Mark 3:29
eternal judgment ’ Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire ’ Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire ’ Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched ’ Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable ’ Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever ’ 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever ’ Jude 1:13

Wow you need a lot of study but definitely not from a wordly preacher. None of those things have anything to do with a hellfire. Not even one.

"unquenchable, inextinguishable"
"not quenched"
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."
"unquenched, unquenchable"
"that cannot be put out"
"inextinguishable"

None of that has anything to do with a hellfire
 
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Gospel Guy

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everlasting fire ’ Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment ’ Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains ’ Jude 1:6
eternal damnation ’ Mark 3:29
eternal judgment ’ Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire ’ Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire ’ Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched ’ Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable ’ Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever ’ 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever ’ Jude 1:13

Wow you need a lot of study but definitely not from a wordly preacher. None of those things have anything to do with a hellfire. Not even one.

:doh:OK, so you don't knoiw what these mean, do you?....."everlasting fire", "eternal fire", "unquenchable fire", "fire that never shall be quenched"...
 
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Timothew

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I'm not about to help GG, but what about Matthew 5:22?
"τὴν γέενναν τοῦ πυρός."
"the Gehenna the fire" or "the fire of Gehenna".
Of course it doesn't mean what GG thinks it means, being alive and on fire in hell forever, but it does say there is fire. (Which also supports the doctrine of Conditional Immortality...the fire that destroys :cool:)
 
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Der Alte

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everlasting fire ’ Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment ’ Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains ’ Jude 1:6
eternal damnation ’ Mark 3:29
eternal judgment ’ Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire ’ Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire ’ Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched ’ Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable ’ Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever ’ 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever ’ Jude 1:13

Wow you need a lot of study but definitely not from a wordly preacher. None of those things have anything to do with a hellfire. Not even one.

"unquenchable, inextinguishable"
"not quenched"
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."
"unquenched, unquenchable"
"that cannot be put out"
"inextinguishable"

None of that has anything to do with a hellfire

Jesus needs to quit talking about hell fire cuz Cowgirl says it don't exist. Jesus mentions hell fire nine [9] times.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be [1] in danger of hell fire.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into [2] a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them [3] into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be [4] cast into hell fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [5] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mar 9:43-48
(43)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to [6] go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to [7] be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be [8] cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luk 16:22-24
(22)
. . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And [9] in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
 
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texascowgirl

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I'm not about to help GG, but what about Matthew 5:22?
"τὴν γέενναν τοῦ πυρός."
"the Gehenna the fire" or "the fire of Gehenna".
Of course it doesn't mean what GG thinks it means, being alive and on fire in hell forever, but it does say there is fire. (Which also supports the doctrine of Conditional Immortality...the fire that destroys :cool:)
Whatever was burned there was sinful men doing it not God.
I have heard it was people who were burning dead bodies that were not claimed like a john doe type thing but I have slso heard it was garbsge burned there but I have not done study on gehenna to make a conclusion on what went on there. Whatever it was had nothing to do with God torturing
people in hell
 
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Der Alte

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I certainly do, but unlike yours, mine has the complete definition of [SIZE="+1"]ὄλεθρος[/SIZE]. But wait a minute the BAG online does not have "eternal death, the cheat, the pest!" and Liddell, Scott, Jones classical Greek lexicon is not part of BAG.

[SIZE="+1"]ολεθρος ou, oJ[/SIZE] # Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348# destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 #Pr 1:26 #. aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . [SIZE="+2"]ολ. αιωνιον[/SIZE] eternal death [Here [SIZE="+1"]ολεθρος[/SIZE] is abbreviated [SIZE="+2"]ολ.[/SIZE]]# Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9 # s. ojlevqrio" #. paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 #handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby#. Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the # spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

[SIZE="+2"]Note above, "ολ. αιωνιον eternal death" [Here ολεθρος is abbreviated ολ.] Two words not ολεθρος alone.[/SIZE].

Let us look at the complete definition from Liddell, Scott, Jones, Classical Greek lexicon, instead of the selective partial quote, above.

[SIZE="+2"]Does this lexicon translate olethros as "the cheat?" No it does not. Here is what it says "τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest!" The first word "τὸν βάσκανον" is "the cheat."

The second word "τὸν δ' ὄ.". The word "τὸν" is the definite article. The word "δ'" is "διά" it means "through." It is written "δ'" when it precedes a word which begins with a vowel. And the word "ολεθρος" is abbreviated "ὄ." thus "the pest." But to be translated "the pest" it must have the prefix δ', thus "δ'ολεθρος". The word "ολεθρος" standing alone does not mean "pest."

It seems you have a problem correctly quoting lexicons.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="+1"]ὄλεθρ-ος , ὁ , ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il. 11.174 , al. ; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al. ; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od. 4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il. 22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο , the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm. 8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον ; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S. OT 430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th. 7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E. Ph. 534 ; ἐκκλησιάζειν ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Ar. Th. 84 ; οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες οὐδ' ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Pl. R. 471a : pl., Phld. Rh. 2.140S. II that which causes destruction, pest, plague, Hes. Th. 326 ; contemptuously of persons, γεγονὼς κακῶς καὶ ἐὼν ὄ. Hdt. 3.142 ; ὑπὸ γερόντων ὀ. Ar. Lys. 325 ; ὄ. ἄνθρωπος Eup. 376 , cf. Men. 533.13 ; ὄ. Μακεδών, of Philip, D. 9.31 ; ὄ. γραμματεύς a pestilent scribe, of Aeschines, Id. 18.127 ; τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest! Id. 21.209 ; ἀνθρώπους οὐδ' ἐλευθέρους ἀλλ' ὀ. Id. 23.202 ; πολλοὶ ὄ. καὶ μεγάλοι Pl. R. 491b . III seduction, Ἑλένης E. IA 1382 (troch.). [/SIZE]

[SIZE="+2"]"τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ." the cheat, the pest!" τὸν βάσκανον, = "the cheat." "τὸν δ' ὄ[λεθρος]"." = "the pest!" To say this in any other way is dishonest! [/size]
 
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Der Alte

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Whatever was burned there was sinful men doing it not God.
I have heard it was people who were burning dead bodies that were not claimed like a john doe type thing but I have slso heard it was garbsge burned there but I have not done study on gehenna to make a conclusion on what went on there. Whatever it was had nothing to do with God torturing people.

Perhaps you should actually do some study on this. What you heard is dead wrong. There is no evidence that the valley of Hinnom, Gehenna, was ever used for burning bodies or garbage. It is a convenient fiction that people who don't bleieve in hell can point to, "See Gehenna is not hell, it was kept burning constantly to burn garbage and indigent bodies."

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

And once again. How did Gehenna come to be known as hell?

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
 
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