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Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Awaken4Christ, Aug 9, 2013.

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  1. Awaken4Christ

    Awaken4Christ Guest

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    I am not seeing any definitive sound doctrine on the concept of eternal torment. The closest I can see is Revelation 20:10, but should 1 verse( or maybe 2) from one book dictate the entire belief of hell or should the overwhelming verses that tell us that those not saved will destroyed, perish, reduced to ashes etc. To me this is truly a debatable topic and yet often times there are groups who are against eternal torment but are widely considered heretical groups. So it saddens me that heretical group(s) have kind of turned off people to the possibility. This is just tearing me apart. Any help or insight would be welcomed.
     
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Because hell is described metaphorically. The eternal torment is being separated from God forever.

    Jesus said "their worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched"
     
  3. Awaken4Christ

    Awaken4Christ Guest

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    I see eternal worms and fire but no torment or a soul that lasts forever in hell. Whether the flames are metaphorical or perhaps a very different fire, I am uncertain. Some stuff is eternal in hell as the bible mentions but says nothing of mans eternal torment that lasts forever(that i can see anyways). the smoke rises for ever and ever, the worms do not go away, the fire does not go away. Do you see where i am going with this? I know that informed Christians already reject the version of the Devil as a big red guy with horns that looks like he is on steroids. But seriously how far has paganism penetrated our understanding of what happens to those who are not saved?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2013
  4. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

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    Found this just looking around.

    What Does Jesus Mean by 'Their Worm Does Not Die' (Mark 9:44, 46, 48)?

    Some believe that Jesus refers to sinners as worms and says that those people would never die but would live on in agonizing torment. Those who say this fail to notice that Jesus does not call wicked people "worms," but speaks of "their worm." The original Greek word for worm means "grub" or "maggot."
    Jesus refers to a local method of garbage disposal to emphasize the permanent consequences of unrepented sins. The margins of some Bibles show that the words "hell fire" in Mark 9:47 should be translated "Gehenna fire." Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is located outside Jerusalem. Trash, refuse, animal carcasses, and even the dead bodies of despised criminals were thrown there to be destroyed by the fires that burned perpetually on the valley floor. If some animal or vegetable matter fell on one of the ledges below the rim, escaping the fire, it would instead be devoured by maggots.
    Jesus' point is that whatever was thrown into the valley never came out again; it was totally consumed, either by fire or by worms or maggots. In other words, just as nothing and no one exterminated the maggots or extinguished the flames in the valley of Gehenna, so there will be no escape from the certain fate that God has decreed for all unrepentant sinners—death in the "lake of fire" (Revelation 22:14). Some of these same principles apply to Isaiah 66:24. The meaning is not that unrepentant sinners or worms live forever. In fact, the opposite is the point of the passage. If the worms that infest a dead body are not killed, the rotting flesh will be consumed until none remains. Maggots, which are simply larval flies, go through a process known as pupation and turn into adult flies. These, in turn, deposit additional eggs, and the process is repeated until nothing is left for maggots to feed on. Similarly, any fire which is not quenched—not deliberately put out—will last only as long as there is fuel to keep it burning and then go out. The whole point is that, when a person does not repent of sin, the results are absolute and permanent—eternal oblivion!






    ..
     
  5. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    ya u got it fine...
    at judgement, all the bad guys will be destroyed for ever
     
  6. Bible2

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    There are two literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they're tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

    After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went to Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6) and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

    At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

    Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside the wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

    What's eternally punishing/tormenting (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the hell of Gehenna (Luke 12:5, Greek) is fire eternally burning the body, and worms eternally eating the body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The bodies of the unsaved in Gehenna needn't be natural bodies like people have now, which don't regenerate parts of themselves when those parts are burned or eaten. For before the unsaved are cast into Gehenna (also called the lake of fire), they will be resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could subsequently be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on forever: an everlasting torment (Revelation 14:10-11).

    In Gehenna, the fire won't ever go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish/torment the unsaved forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the resurrection bodies of the unsaved are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies won't be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish/torment the unsaved forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

    In Matthew 10:28b, "destroy" doesn't have to mean annihilate. For the original Greek word (apollumi, G0622) can be used to refer to something simply being ruined (Mark 2:22), yet still existing in its ruined state (Mark 9:45-46).

    Also, in Matthew 25:46, in the original Greek, the same word (aionios, G0166) is used to refer to the "everlasting" punishment of the unsaved as is used to refer to the "eternal" life of the saved. So to claim that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved can't be everlasting, but must be only temporary, would suggest that the eternal life of the saved can't be everlasting either, but must also be temporary.

    *******

    Are you thinking of the mistaken idea of "soul sleep"? If so, note that only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

    So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

    Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).
     
  7. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

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    I am not allowed to discuss this outside of the "Unorthodox Theology" section.
    I would love to talk to you about this though, I believe you are correct.
    John 3:16
    Romans 6:26
     
  8. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist Still striving for health Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This thread is closed for staff review. As a reminder, the site rules include:

     
  9. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    Thread moved to Unorthodox Theology and reopened.[/c]
     
  10. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    What about the scripture that some would be "beaten with few stripes" and some would be beaten with "many stripes"?

    Is this also speaking about "hell"? I think it is.

    And if so - there are degrees of punishment in hell -- and in both cases - few and many - there is assumed a "last stripe" - iow - the beatings with "stripes" are not going to go on forever; whether few or many - the stripes will come to an end.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
     
  12. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    "portion with the unbelievers" -- I believe this is just as legitimate a word-picture of "hell" as anything else like the rich man in the flames, worms dying not, torments, gehenna, hades -- in other words - there are different DESCRIPTIONS in the New Testament that cannot be doubted as APPLYING TO THE AFTERLIFE (the afterlife which is NOT "the Good Place)

    the chapter where the "few stripes - many stripes" quote came from said earlier in it:

    Luk 12:4 ¶ And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

    Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


    Talking about HELL -- uses "beaten with stripes"; a punishment that assumes it HAS AN END TO IT whether few or many -- as a description of HELL

    ya ever look at it?

    Maybe NONE of the descriptions of "hell" are meant to be taken LITERALLY - but here is ONE DESCRIPTION (receiving whippings in different DEGREES)

    where "endlessness" is obviously NOT insinuated, where an ENDING to the "stripes" is logically assumed
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  13. PrayerandPeace

    PrayerandPeace I Believe!

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    Revelation 20:11-15

    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
     
  14. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell"

    why FEAR anything or anyone after Death if you would be annihilated?

    You would not have any AWARENESS of being "cast" anywhere - you would have no consciousness, and it would be meaningless to speak of "fearing" him who could do something "after he hath killed"

    You have to look at ALL the "descriptions" of "hell" in the New Testament and consider the descriptions for what they are

    I do not believe the whole list of descriptions consistently paints a picture of ENDLESS punishment.

    I do not believe in Annihilation because consciousness is a part of some of the descriptions.

    I do not believe in Soul Sleep for the same reason - consciousness of a soul after death is pictured in some of the descriptions.

    Bout the only thing I am SURE OF about HELL from New Testament descriptions is that

    I DONT WANNA GO THERE
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    The book of Revelation is in the Bible; the book of Luke is in the Bible.

    Does Luke's description deserve consideration as well as Revelation's?

    Should we not look at ALL descriptions in the Bible concerning "the unfavorable afterlife" or should we ONLY look at the "goriest of all"?
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    These are popular fictions concocted by those who hold the presupposition that a loving God would not eternally punish those who disobey His commandments, but will either, as some say, reconcile all people, or, as others say, annihilate the wicked.

    First, there is no evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used for a garbage dump or a place for disposing of bodies.

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

    Long before the time of Jesus the ancient Jews believed in a place of unending punishment for the wicked and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. In the NT Gehinnom is transliterated as Gehenna and Sheol is translated hades.

    Here are some of my previous posts documenting that from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE), and the Talmud. Before the time of Jesus the Jews believed that "hell shall pass away, but they [heretics] shall not pass away." "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them.""The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" and "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11."

    [post=63318413]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]

    [post=63598623]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]
     
  17. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    The word picture in Rev 20:13 describes THREE different "places" or "realms" where the dead shall be GIVEN UP

    FROM -

    the SEA

    "death" itself and

    Hades

    It's a word-picture

    Do you really think one guy is LITERALLY going to come "from the Sea"

    and another guy "from Hades"

    and a third guy "from DEATH"

    and all these people from the 3 different realms (why was one guy in the SEA - thalassa - and NOT in HADES -the unseen realm - if he was going to the BAD PLACE)

    and were not ALL the people destined for the Lake of Fire - were they not ALL coming from the realm of DEATH (thanatos)?

    Take it LITERALLY - and you have one guy checking into the lake of Fire saying

    "Oh, I'm coming from THE SEA - I was not in DEATH or HADES"

    and so on
     
  18. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    I don't see CONSISTENCY in how the OT spoke of Sheol - in one place it seemed there was no consciousness on the part of the departed - in other places there was consciousness - in one case Samuel was LITERALLY CALLED UP FROM THE DEAD!

    So he was obviously conscious in that passage
     
  19. Anto9us

    Anto9us Neo-Middle

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    Here's one that the annihilation groupies just jump up and down about - of course, it's hardly the last word - as we'll put up more OT verses about grave, death, Sheol that tell a different story

    Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is not talking about one person but all the dead in the graves and in the sea. People who were lost at sea were not buried.
     
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