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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Colo Millz

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(β) Tradition.—The historical objections to the doctrine of eternal punishment may really be reduced to one head—viz. the views of Origen. In his “De Principiis,” i. 6, this great man gives it as his opinion that even the devils will undergo a long course of purification and be saved at last; and in his commentary on Josue (Hom. viii.) he asserts the same thing of men who have been condemned at the day of judgment. In “Princip.” iii. 6, he puts forward the interpretation of St. Paul’s words, “God will be all in all,” which we combated a little further back. Origen’s piety, genius, and learning, and his reputation as a commentator on the Bible gained for him a wide and an enduring influence in the Church, so that we cannot be surprised to find that other Fathers followed him in his hopes of a universal restoration. Petavius (“De Angelis,” iii. 7) shows that St. Gregory Nyssen did so, that St. Gregory Nazianzen entertained the hope that the punishment of sinners in the next world would not last for ever—a hope which St. Jerome limits to such sinners as had died in the Catholic faith. St. Ambrose, as quoted by Petavius, says that men may, though angels will not, be purified and restored, even after an adverse sentence has been passed upon them at the judgment. Carefully to be distinguished from this error is the opinion of Augustine and other Fathers, viz. that the sufferings of lost souls may be mitigated by the prayers and good works of the faithful. “Concerning this amelioration of the condition of lost men at least” (so Petavius writes in words which Cardinal Newman has made familiar to all) “the Church as yet has laid down nothing as certain, so that for this reason this opinion held by Fathers of high sanctity is not to be dismissed offhand as absurd, though it differs from the common feeling of modern Catholics.”

We have tried to give as fairly as possible the patristic evidence for the view that the torments of hell will come to an end. But the whole stream of tradition runs in the contrary direction. There is no real trace of such a view within the Church before Origen’s time. Theophilus of Antioch (“Apol.” 1, ad fin.) contrasts the eternal joys of heaven with the eternal woes of hell. St. Irenæus (iv. 28, 2) and St. Cyprian (“Ad Demetrium,” cc. 24, 25) express themselves in a way which puts their meaning beyond all possibility of misapprehension. “Those,” says the former, “to whom Christ addresses the words ‘Depart into everlasting fire’ (perpetuum, not œternum) will be always condemned, and those to whom he says, ‘Come ye blessed,’ &c., always obtain the kingdom.” “Hell ever burning,” says St. Cyprian, “will consume those who are given over to it, nor will there be any means by which their torments can ever rest or cease.”

Petavius has collected a catena of passages from later Fathers, some of them expressly reprobating the error of Origen. It is doubtful whether or not his error was condemned at the Fifth General Council. Certainly his name stands in the present text of the eleventh anathema, which is levelled at “Arius, Eunomius, Apollinarius [sic], Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, together with their impious writings,” and Hefele (“Concil.” 2. 898) defends the authenticity of the text as we have it against Garnier and many other critics. But no particular doctrine of Origen is mentioned in the anathema. Cardinal Noris and the Ballerini in their edition of his works tried to show that part of the Acts of the council have perished, and that a special investigation and specific condemnation of Origen’s errors took place. There are plausible grounds for this opinion, which is, however, rejected by Hefele (loc. cit. p. 858) after an elaborate discussion. He thinks that the Church historian Evagrius, one of the chief witnesses cited by Cardinal Noris, confused the general council of 553 with another held ten years earlier at the same place. But whether or no Origen was expressly condemned by a general council, it is a plain matter of fact that a council has defined that the punishment of hell lasts for ever. The Fourth Council of Lateran (anno 1215) speaks of the “everlasting punishment” (pœnam perpetuam) which awaits the reprobate, and the force of the word “perpetuam” cannot be evaded even by those who explain away the word “eternal.” And, apart even from this definition, the question is closed by the constant teaching of the Church through her pastors.



William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary (New York: The Catholic Publication Society Co., 1887), 398–399.
 
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Colo Millz

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(γ) If we turn from the history of the doctrine to the doctrine itself, and ask “Is it reasonable or credible?” the difficulties are unquestionably great and terrible enough, and never have they been felt more keenly than in the present age. We must of course put aside erroneous or even unwarranted presentation of the Church’s belief. God condemns no single soul unless He has first bestowed upon it full opportunity of securing a life of eternal happiness with Himself. Moreover, He desires the salvation of all, whether Catholics or Protestants, Christians or heathen, and will judge all according to the advantages or disadvantages they have had. “Thou sparest all, because they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls.” Again, He remembers the frailty of our nature and condemns to eternal banishment from his presence, those only who die separated utterly from Him by mortal—i.e. by deliberate and grievous—sin. Nor can we say who these persons are, or guess with any degree of probability what proportion they bear to the whole race of man. Sins which seem grievous to us may be excused by ignorance or want of deliberation, and even men who appear to end evil lives with evil deaths may nevertheless be enlightened by God’s mercy at the last—perhaps just as their souls are passing out of their bodies—and so die in peace with Him. Even after these and other abatements have been made, the awful and mysterious character of the doctrine remains. Why does not God, who holds all hearts in his hand, turn the hearts of sinners to Himself? It is no answer to say that He chooses to confer the gift of free will on men with its attendant responsibilities, for it is the common doctrine of theologians that God could soften the heart of each and every sinner, and yet leave the freedom of the will in its integrity; and one who seriously reflects on the meaning of omnipotence as a divine attribute will scarcely venture to contradict the proposition. The only safe reply is that God so acts for reasons inscrutable to us, and that if reason cannot penetrate God’s designs, it is at the same time unable to show that the conduct which the Scripture attributes to God is unjust.

“Retributive justice,” Cardinal Newman writes (“Grammar of Assent,” p. 415), “is the very attribute under which God is primarily brought before us in the teachings of our natural conscience.” If, then, God will by no means clear the guilty, it is not at any rate inconceivable that He should punish a man who ends the period of trial in utter rebellion against Him who is at once his sovereign and his loving benefactor, by the most extreme punishment which can be conceived. “The great mystery,” to continue our quotation from Cardinal Newman—“the great mystery is, not that evil should have no end, but that it had a beginning.” From this latter mystery there is no escape to those who believe in a God at all.

Some other arguments have been adduced for the Catholic doctrine, but we have preferred to rest our belief on the words of merciful warning spoken by Christ Himself. For it is not surely without significance that it is from Christ Himself rather than from the Apostles that we have the plainest statements of the doctrine.

Christ on Himself, considerate Master, took
The utterance of that doctrine’s fearful sound;
The fount of love his servants sends to tell
Love’s deeds; Himself proclaims the sinner’s hell.



William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary (New York: The Catholic Publication Society Co., 1887), 399–400.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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WHERE did you find that quote?? I did some research and found this site:


And there is NOTHING -- NOT ONE DARN THING!!! -- that even comes close to that quote! Go to the site and check it out yourself!!! Use Google translate to translate the text from Greek to English.

IT
AIN'T
THERE!!!

And this is a problem I discovered when researching the Early Fathers. What we have are ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE GREEK WORDS AND THEY ARE WRONG. This is one of the things that I have a serious problem with - the translators were driven by AGENDA and not by good translation practice. For instance, there is one translation of a Father who is speaking of "eternal punishment." The problem I found, when I was fortunate enough to find an original Greek text of his epistle, is that he used the word "aionios" which does not have the meaning of "eternal."

The Greek word most commonly used for "eternal" is "adidios." NOT AIONIOS. The root of aionios is aion, from which we get the English word "eon" and is properly translated as "age." So if the root of that word is "age," then where do people get off translating it as "eternal?"

Sorry, my brother, that doesn't fly with me.
Well done sir … to the question you posed above, I submit the following equation:
AGENDA + AIONIOS - INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY = ETERNAL. Someone once asked me, in an effort to cast contempt on the correct rendering of Aionios, why does it take two or more English words to translate one Greek word? Well. I think a better question is why does God need two Greek words to mean eternal? Are there two kinds of eternal?

blessings
 
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Lukaris

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WHERE did you find that quote?? I did some research and found this site:


And there is NOTHING -- NOT ONE DARN THING!!! -- that even comes close to that quote! Go to the site and check it out yourself!!! Use Google translate to translate the text from Greek to English.

IT
AIN'T
THERE!!!

And this is a problem I discovered when researching the Early Fathers. What we have are ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE GREEK WORDS AND THEY ARE WRONG. This is one of the things that I have a serious problem with - the translators were driven by AGENDA and not by good translation practice. For instance, there is one translation of a Father who is speaking of "eternal punishment." The problem I found, when I was fortunate enough to find an original Greek text of his epistle, is that he used the word "aionios" which does not have the meaning of "eternal."

The Greek word most commonly used for "eternal" is "adidios." NOT AIONIOS. The root of aionios is aion, from which we get the English word "eon" and is properly translated as "age." So if the root of that word is "age," then where do people get off translating it as "eternal?"

Sorry, my brother, that doesn't fly with me.

ADDENDUM: Lukaris, is there more than one Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians? The wording in the link you gave me isn't even close in any of the chapters to what I linked. Could it be there is more than one epistle? This is strange.
I scrolled down to the link I posted to early Christian writings and it is there. It is mentioned that there is a long & short version of his letter to Ephesus.

Here is the 1891 translation of Lighfoot & Hammer of chapter 16 which appears to be the short version.


CHAPTER 16
16:1 Be not deceived, my brethren. Corrupters of
houses _shall not inherit the kingdom of God._
16:2 If then they which do these things after the
flesh are put to death, how much more if a man through
evil doctrine corrupt the faith of God for which Jesus
Christ was crucified. Such a man, having defiled
himself, shall go into the unquenchable fire; and in
like manner also shall he that hearkeneth unto him.




Here is the translation on the Catholic New Advent site ( which appears to be the short version):


Chapter 16. The fate of false teachers​

Do not err, my brethren. James 1:16 Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.




From the Penguin edition translated by Staniforth & edited by Louth ( 1968). It took a photo & copied by touch since I am not photo downloading savvy.

For in fact, that is literally the case; and in proportion as we rightly love Him, so it will become clear to our eyes.


16. But let us have no misunderstanding about this, my brothers.


No man who is responsible for defiling a household can expect any share in the kingdom of God. Even in the world, defilement of this kind is punishable with death;*? how much more when a man's subversive doctrines defile the God-given Faith for which Jesus Christ was cru-cified. Such a wretch in his uncleanness is bound for the unquenchable fire, and so is anyone else who gives him a


EARLY


CHRISTIAN WRITINGS


The Apostolic Fathers


Translated by Maxwell Staniforth

Revised translation,

Introductions and new editorial material by Andrew Louth

PENGUIN BOOKS
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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I scrolled down to the link I posted to early Christian writings and it is there. It is mentioned that there is a long & short version of his letter to Ephesus.

Here is the 1891 translation of Lighfoot & Hammer of chapter 16 which appears to be the short version.


CHAPTER 16
16:1 Be not deceived, my brethren. Corrupters of
houses _shall not inherit the kingdom of God._
16:2 If then they which do these things after the
flesh are put to death, how much more if a man through
evil doctrine corrupt the faith of God for which Jesus
Christ was crucified. Such a man, having defiled
himself, shall go into the unquenchable fire; and in
like manner also shall he that hearkeneth unto him.




Here is the translation on the Catholic New Advent site ( which appears to be the short version):


Chapter 16. The fate of false teachers​

Do not err, my brethren. James 1:16 Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.




From the Penguin edition translated by Staniforth & edited by Louth ( 1968). It took a photo & copied by touch since I am not photo downloading savvy.

For in fact, that is literally the case; and in proportion as we rightly love Him, so it will become clear to our eyes.


16. But let us have no misunderstanding about this, my brothers.


No man who is responsible for defiling a household can expect any share in the kingdom of God. Even in the world, defilement of this kind is punishable with death;*? how much more when a man's subversive doctrines defile the God-given Faith for which Jesus Christ was cru-cified. Such a wretch in his uncleanness is bound for the unquenchable fire, and so is anyone else who gives him a


EARLY


CHRISTIAN WRITINGS


The Apostolic Fathers


Translated by Maxwell Staniforth

Revised translation,

Introductions and new editorial material by Andrew Louth

PENGUIN BOOKS
Again, well done sir. We ought never shrink back from acknowledging truthfulness. Wish all translators pursued truthfulness as they interpreted the Holy Writ.
 
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Colo Millz

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We find in the prophet Isaiah, that the fire with which each one is punished is described as his own; for he says, “Walk in the light of your own fire, and in the flame which ye have kindled.” By these words it seems to be indicated that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire, and is not plunged into some fire which has been already kindled by another, or was in existence before himself. Of this fire the fuel and food are our sins, which are called by the Apostle Paul wood, and hay, and stubble.”2 And I think that, as abundance of food, and provisions of a contrary kind and amount, breed fevers in the body, and fevers, too, of different sorts and duration, according to the proportion in which the collected poison supplies material and fuel for disease (the quality of this material, gathered together from different poisons, proving the causes either of a more acute or more lingering disease); so, when the soul has gathered together a multitude of evil works, and an abundance of sins against itself, at a suitable time all that assembly of evils boils up to punishment, and is set on fire to chastisements; when the mind itself, or conscience, receiving by divine power into the memory all those things of which it had stamped on itself certain signs and forms at the moment of sinning, will see a kind of history, as it were, of all the foul, and shameful, and unholy deeds which it has done, exposed before its eyes: then is the conscience itself harassed, and, pierced by its own goads, becomes an accuser and a witness against itself. And this, I think, was the opinion of the Apostle Paul himself, when he said, “Their thoughts mutually accusing or excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.” From which it is understood that around the substance of the soul certain tortures are produced by the hurtful affections of sins themselves.

Origen, “De Principiis,” in Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. Frederick Crombie, vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 295.
 
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Lukaris

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Here is what C.S. Lewis writes in a conversation within a dream a person is having with a departed Scottish preacher named George McDonald ( who was a real person )about heaven & hell in his book the Great Divorce on the Lord’s descent into hades ( “hell” in the Apostles Creed) as per 1 Peter 3:18-4:6, Ephesians 4:8-9 etc.):





Only the Greatest of all can make Himself small enough to enter Hell. For the higher a thing is, the lower it can descend—a man can sympathise with a horse but a horse cannot sympathise with a rat. Only One has descended into Hell.'


'And will He ever do so again?'


'It was not once long ago that He did it. Time does not work that way when once ye have left the Earth. All

moments that have been or shall be were, or are, present in the moment of His descending. There is no spirit in prison to Whom He did not preach.'

'And some hear him?'

'Aye."


From pp. 139-140 of the 2001 Harper Collin’s edition ( finger photocopied).

Much of John 5:22-30 comes to mind to me personally here.
 
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Jipsah

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You are cutting my post so that you don’t have to actually address the scripture that I’m posting and then make fun of what you did quote. Goading is against the forum posting rules.
TBF, I reckon goading is what a moderator says it is, and yes, I fiond the "free will uber alles" doctrine ridiculous, and wholly unsupported by Scripture. It's a bit of secular philosophy used by Christians to keep God from interfering with their favorite doctrines.

The phrase "God can't..." is always, without exception, followed by a ration of rubbish. "God can't violate our Free Will" is no exception. He does allow human will to prevail from time to time, but He has shown that this is in no way something He is bound to do. Notable cases are Pharoah, Balaam, arguably Gideon, Jonah, St Paul, Lot's wife, and others. Those folks ere all subjected to threats and/or actualy physical duress to force their obedience. Unless you consider that a person faced with a "give me all your money or I'll shoot you" threat hands over his wallet as an act of "free will", at which point the "discussion" enters the real
This is a wall of words with no meaning or evidence. It is non responsive.
You seem to have some difficulty with concepts that don't conform with your presuppositions. That doesn't really add any weight to your ideas
If you want to be taken seriously then address the whole post including the scripture. Your opinion is not evidence.
Nor is your feigned inability to understand fairly simple ideas. So let me simplify them even further:

Can God "force" people to do His will? Yes, He does so many times in Scripture.
Is it moral for God to force people to do His will? Yes, because God's Will must be assumed to be unarguably righteous, as rightness and propriety are to be judged using God's will as the standard. So yes, it's OK for God to "inspire" someone to do as He tells them by, say, causing their ship to founder in a storm of His making, having him chucked over the side of said ship, and then eaten by a fish. To claim that God didn't force the person thus persuaded to obey, or that the subject of that persuasion decided to obey as a result of "free will" is one of the dumbest assertions that one can easily imagine. All it took to reing St. Paul to heel was being knocked down in the road, struck blind, and adressed by our Risen Lord Himself. No "force or coercion there, no siree! All God had to do to get Pharoah to behave was kill all of Egypt's firstborn. Just gentle persuasion, huh?

So spare us the "free will" rubbish. God's Will is gonna be done, end of. "Oh, but He can't!" "Oh yes He can, and will if pepole are stiff necked as to make it necessary.

Still no response to the observation that "eternal torment" requires the tormented to be eternally alive so as to be tormented. So forget "the wages of sin is death", Old Nick himself said "you shall not surely die", so he must have known. And most of all forget all the Scriptures that explicitly say that God wants everyone saved, and that our Lord came to make that happen.

Other than that, anything else I've said you'd like clarified? Feel free to ask,
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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Yes because if everyone will be saved at the end then there is no reason to believe in Christ now and no reason to not continue in the life of sin. After all all will be redeemed.
I've never said "everyone" will be saved. Since the composition of all people includes the person and the tempter and/or his own, the devil and his messengers will not be saved, and will end up in the eternal containment area.
He has not deceived me. Gas he deceived you?
God deceives the devils and confuses them as well. God does work against them, actively, to this day.
Sin comes from our sinful human nature. All will indeed sin. The devil merely takes advantage of the weak.
The devil deceives the whole world. There are no exceptions.
Your position is the one without accounting. All will be redeemed so why live a Christ like life? What is the point?
Your "ideas" of what constitutes salavation are merely skewered to suit.

John the Apostle says anyone who loves knows God and is born of God, 1 John 4:7

I try to meet every person I meet on that basis, so there is no need for me to condemn anyone. They already believe and simply don't know it yet in the ways we might as believers. We merely make a more formal introduction in the person of Christ.
Nah. I’m not one of those and I think that you are not one either.

Do you spend time just finding verses to quote out of context? Here is what Paul says about that.
You know the drill I employ. Every Word of God applies to everyone so no quote mining required.

The good portions of God's Words are for mankind

The ugly for the devil and his messengers

Quite a clean cut arrangement, right down the middle.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:1

Jesus can (and will) look everyone straight in the eye and condemn the tempter and/or his own in them.

The captives will go free. The captors will be tossed aside at the end of the program, this wicked age.
“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Neither are the impious, the demons, and those that deny Christ.
Pity you can't differentiate between the parties.
The real enemies included those that deny Christ. There is no way around that.

Yours. No mistake on my part.
You simply haven't learned to divide. Nothing more.

It's a very powerful tool. Not meant to be handled by everyone. Especially when engaging the enemies "in the church."
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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To claim that God didn't force the person thus persuaded to obey, or that the subject of that persuasion decided to obey as a result of "free will" is one of the dumbest assertions that one can easily imagine.
Brilliant observation!

God could, if He wanted to, strike every last person on earth like He struck Saul. But God chooses not to. Not for the accounting of freewill, but to enforce the hard line fact that we are ALL quite bound to disobedience by God's Will, as we Christian Universalists are fond of quoting:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The promise of the Gospel is to be UNBOUND at the time of our completion, every person in their proper order.

The finale transpires at the end, when the devil and his messengers are "divided from" or "separated from" mankind.

In the meantime it's a little ugly. Some times a lot of ugly.

Ah, but love. How much can we take anyway? That is a much more exiting prospect for the long game.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Exactly. I don't understand how someone can redefine "death" into eternal life in hell. Especially since it's called the "second death" And Christ specifically states "I make all things new" I for one believe the Lake of Fire will be a former thing at that point. It will cease to exist after it's served it's purpose at Judgement Day. I can't believe in UR because I do believe it's eternal life or death. I've seen too many verses that state exactly that. But I certainly don't believe in ECT.
It's ECT:

Rev. 14:
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In our presence no less

Bet you didn't count on having that in your presence "for ever and ever."

Is God going to zombify us or what? How could that possibly equate to "heaven," being in the presence of the lamb and having the torture transpire in the presence of the Lamb? Are we going to watch all the people who ever lived and didn't believe including every friend, relative or acquaintance be burned alive forever?

I might certainly hope NOT. That would be hell for ALL.

How the E.O. can claim that as heaven is a little strange to me. Very strange.

BUT, if it is only our enemies, the spirits of disobedience, the devil and his messengers, no problem with me. Might grab some marshmellows and watch while warming myself by the fire

It was no accident that after the first healing touch on a blindman by Jesus he saw people like trees, walking.

It's going to be a great fire.
 
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