Hell and a Moral God

[Hands Open]

There are many religions in the world. They do not all teach the same thing. In fact, many of them contradict each other. So, they can't all be true and it cannot be said that each is a different path to God. What are we to say about all those other religions compared to Christianity? To get to the point, all of the religions are false.

Yes that is what christianity hold to be true. But the real question is why. You pose some answers to this shortly.

If Jesus is who He said He was, God in flesh, then whatever He says is authoritative and true. He said that He was the way the truth in the life and that nobody comes to the father except through Him (John 14:6). Right there, we see that any other way, according to Jesus, is not true.

This is what may other religions state. That they are Monotheistic gods. They suffer no other gods. If you believe in any others other than them then you go to their own personaly devised hell.

Christianity bases its truth and its doctrine on the word of God, the Bible. In the word of God, Jesus claims to be the only way. Since He performed many miracles, raised people from the dead, commanded a storm to be still and it obeyed, healed diseases, and rose from the dead Himself, then we are forced to face the reality of His words. Is what He said true or not? Either Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord. No one else in history, except Jesus, has fulfilled detailed prophecies, performed many miracles before eyewitnesses, and risen from the dead. Jesus is unique.

So let me be the first to tell you that it is only supoosed that Jesus even lived, much less did these miracles or fullfilled these prophecies. By the way every other religion has it's miracles.
All of which cannot be proven.
Oh on another point, aside from his belivers who wrote the books, all the other "eyewitness" writers were dated at least 60 years after he died.

For those of us who are Christians, we have trusted what Christ has said. We believe in what He said and did. Like it or not, Jesus is the one who said He was the only way. It is not the Christians who are being "narrow-minded." It is Jesus.

Not quite. All kinds of religions have the quote "Follow me or burn in hell." Other religions even have "Follow me or freeze in hell." And saying that Jesus is narrow-minded is not a view that will get you very far in most debates with athiests or agnostics. Or Theists for that matter.

Therefore, to say that other religions can be true means that Jesus is false. To say that there are other ways to God, also means that Jesus is false. This is what it comes down to. Either Jesus is who He said He was and what He said is true, or He is false. This is a choice you must make. To trust what He said or reject His words.

Yes exactly. If these other religions are true then what is writen about jesus is false. I say that daily. you say the same thing about Mohammedan's every time you say that Jesus is lord. The fact is that Jesus gives us no good reason to belive him. If we are to burn in hell because of that fact then it's his own fault and it in no way makes him some morally perfect god.

 

[Hands Open]

I believe the title of this thread is Hell and a Moral God. What other subject would we be discussing?

None. It is that very fact that we are discussing it that makes me want to hurl. And it's my upchuck reflex that urges me to write.

I do not have the power to damn anyone. That is God's place, and God's alone. And you are right, I am no better than you or anyone else in this world. I am a wretched sinner, who deserves to spend eternity in hell, that has been saved by God's amazing grace. You can have that too, so can Lucretius and anyone else in this world that wants it.

You can also be saved my Timmy. WHY WHY WHY WHY! You have no answers other than your book. And you can't use the book to prove the book! You have no power to damn but you profess it to be true! Might as well just say it: "Hands you are damning yourself to hell.'" Then we can stop beating around the bush and I can show your religion for what it is.

 

[Charlie V]

yes of course Charlie V, God does forgive all things and loves us always; it is we who do the punishing in our choosing to be away from God

Nonsense. If it were true, though, it would be akin to blaming a three year old child who ran away from home. He made his choice.

Our intellect is less than a three year old child compared to God. If we truly choose such a thing, and I don't think we do but if we do, we "know not what we do," as Christ said in Luke 23.

If a three year old child runs away, we do not turn our backs on him. We bring the child home. If we're loving parents, of course. A three year old doesn't have "free will" to run away. A three year old is immature and cannot make such a decision. And so are we, and neither can we!

Charlie

 

[Hands Open]

Nonsense. If it were true, though, it would be akin to blaming a three year old child who ran away from home. He made his choice.

Our intellect is less than a three year old child compared to God. If we truly choose such a thing, and I don't think we do but if we do, we "know not what we do," as Christ said in Luke 23.

If a three year old child runs away, we do not turn our backs on him. We bring the child home. If we're loving parents, of course. A three year old doesn't have "free will" to run away. A three year old is immature and cannot make such a decision. And so are we, and neither can we!

Charlie

I have to admit Charlie that you have a viewpoint that isn't quite mainstream. I can't say I've met any other Protestants who think in the same line you do. Not that I have any reason to tell you that your reasons are false. I've also heard the idea that the earth was made while god wasn't looking. It as well is an idea I don't wish to dispute as there can be alot said for it.

But seeing how your view is so unique I'd like to ask a question of it. Exactly what do you believe is in store for you in the after life? Is there any punishment or do all go to heaven? Is hell simply being removed for god?
Seeing how eternal hell is an idea that we both disagree with I wonder what you replace it with.

 

[charis4fr]

?

 

[charis4fr]

?

 

[craig_on_fire]

You can't really CHOOSE to go to hell anyways… God made you, he made you with choices and the knowledge you would choose those choices and their consequences. If God made you, the choices you will make, and the knowledge you will make the choices, how are you free to choose? If you don't take the choice he knows you will take then you are doing something God didn't know you would do, and because God knows all, this is impossible. So you are condemned to hell from day 1.

Very thin ice your skating on there to suggest pre-destination. What would be the point in being born if you had no control over your own actions?? God may know the choices you are going to make... but you are the one to decide them. Don't make God out to be some kind of puppet master. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but you need to realise that.

 

[Hands Open]

Very thin ice your skating on there to suggest pre-destination. What would be the point in being born if you had no control over your own actions?? God may know the choices you are going to make... but you are the one to decide them. Don't make God out to be some kind of puppet master. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but you need to realise that.

You don't seem to give god enough credit. You say we make our own choices. I say how? With knowledge. What we decide in any given moment is rooted in how much we know about that situation. If god is truly omnipotent then knowledge is his to give freely. If he chose to withhold knowledge then that's his own fault. You may say he brought knowledge in the form of the bible, but that doesn't cut it. He never gives us knowledge of himself. If god simply made himself undeniable then there would be no need for anyother religion in the world. He withheld fact.

So in the end the realization is for someone else. I choose to do what makes the most sense. If god created a world in which he knew he wouldn't make any sense to me, then that, as the all powerful creator, is his own sorry fault.

 

[Charlie V]

Thanks charis! One point I want to make.

Good thoughts, Charlie! When it comes to the subject of hell, many Christians simply reiterate: God is just! God is just! God is just!

I reiterate that too!

Justice is balanced. Jusice is fair.

Infinite punishment for finite sin is unjust.

If God is just, eternal torment in an unlimited hell cannot exist. Even the worst, most horrific sin committed by any human being, is finite. No person has murdered infinite people, caused infinite pain, committed infinite adultery, broken infinite commandments. Justice requires the punishment never exceed the crime.

If the punishment for sin is eternity in an unlimited hell, then God cannot be just.

Charlie

 

[Poohbear246]

It is pointless. Proving the Bible being the Word of God by quoting the Bible is quite circular. It is a shame that this kind of barrier will always exist in a discussion on religion.

I wonder the same thing as you Lucretius, it's something that has always bothered me. Heaven is supposed to be perfect, no more tears or sadness, right? Hypothetically, let's say that you have a relative whom you loved very deeply and have always prayed for. That person is in hell and you are in heaven. Wouldn't you be sad knowing that your relative was suffering? Isn't empathy and compassion a part of what it is that makes us dynamic spiritual beings? It seems to me that if we just suddely understood and accepted the suffering of those in an eternal hell, that would be reversing the great gift of compassion that God has given us.

Further: how can complete and total perfection even *exist* with the presence of suffering. Happiness vs. unhappiness strikes me as a distinctly terrestrial dynamic....that's what goes on right here, right now. It seems that eternal suffering as part and parcel of divine perfection is counterintuitive.

What about forgiveness? Wouldn't a denizen of heaven -- who is supposed to be more inspired and evolved than they were on earth -- be more apt to forgive those who hurt him or her, and persuade God to end such torment?

I honestly struggle with this issue.

 

[john14_20]

I don't get how people can find hell a product of a perfectly good God. Why does anyone believe it is moral to condemn someone for an eternity into a fiery pit of torment for their years on Earth (at most about 120 years). This seems so far from any sense of morality that I find it odd people still believe in a hell. Clear this up for me if you can.

Thanks,
Lucretius

Christians who believe in a literal hell of flames and torture that lasts eternally, believe in an immoral and unjust God, one who I would unashamedly spit in the face of.

Thier vision of God is my vison of the devil.

And the whole logic that God does not send anyone to hell but we choose to go there is totally illogical and non-sensical.

No-one would choose hell if they truly knew what it was and if they were not enslaved by sin. No Christian I have ever met will argue this point. They agree that the choice is illogical but they say 'well that's the nature of sin'.

But if the choice is made from a will that is enslaved by sin - as it must be - then it is not a free will decision then is it?

Regards, Pete

 

[elman]

Without free will there is no sin.

 

[Lucretius]

I was merely asserting I found a moral god and eternal punishment a contradiction of terms.

 

[elman]

I was merely asserting I found a moral god and eternal punishment a contradiction of terms.

I agree if by eternal punishment you mean eternal torture, but if by eternal punishment one means eternal non existence or death, I see no reason a moral God could not be part of that. God it seem to be could be absolutly moral and not grant eternal life to the wicked.

 

[Lucretius]

Non existence is not punishment. I won't exist as I do now when I die. I will just be a rotting organic mass.

What is eternal death? Getting reborn and dying endlessly?

 

[Amurphycat]

A hard topic to discuss outside of the bible(which already outlines hell, in numerous occasions.

I think that Hell, is reserved for people who are extremely wicked. Also for Satan, and Angels who have been cast out of Heaven; since what was created in heaven, cannot be destroyed(so it much sit eternally, untill it can change- which I am not sure about that happening-- Change of those few)

Most people (as in everyday christians), are most likely looking at judgement(actually all of us), so I think that this is not so much as hell, but not immediatly gifted heaven(a feat for a select few.....).

Hell, in some minds, provides a way of making people believe in something. It is so easy to believe in something if you are scared into it. And to an extent it works. The only obvious solution that MAY result in this equation is, can one achieve the most amount of GOOD with Hell in the picture.(well, what I said earlier about the select few, may answer the question).

There is something else at stake here though.
And this is very important, and provides means for how the Christian Religon(and others that have HELL), are looked at, and what they can do indirectly to culture(or civilization).
(a few senerios)
1. certinatly, heaven being an Unachivable Place, would hamper people wanting to persue something. example, Why would I rake the leaves when all they do is fall, and mount and then their is more leaves. (but this is not the divine purpose of religon, to be BETTER PEOPLE is the most important, and the first step. Heaven is such a gift, and a valuable one for being such a great person, but it is just that a Gift. where as being a better or good person should be mandatory).

2. The idea of hell makes people think power exists in it. Certinatly there are people, who think that Hell, and the devil have power(although, I always chuckle at such thought- as God is the Power). If there was no hell, then some people might not confuse it.

3. Does the idea hell make people not want to try to be better.(does it prematurely, and/or indirectly cause discouragement) Certinatly the emphisis of Punishment, makes some weary to get involved in religon. They feel that it is punishment to join(not what I think, but i have heard it).

4. Does Hell scare small children(kind of humorously put!-sorry), but indeed the Idea being put into the mind of a small Human, might scare them. Eternal Suffering--- OUCH!!

The idea of hell, is a strange topic to look at in one manner. Being from god, there is a divine purpose for it. So we cannot fully understand it from just two testamets(two books, written of all the religous experiences, that were fortunate enough to make it).

There is an Idea though, that I am missing. Hell, provides us something(good, or better people; who try not to be wicked) that makes life a bit more whole at the moment. I can feel it, but I can not pinpoint its exact feel at the moment, perhaps at a later time, it will be more clear.

I am comfurtable with Hell, because would be true if I was to suffer eternal suffering. If God wants it, and since he knows all, then it must be the truth. Therefore hell is not so scary, becuase if you go there, then there is still good(which is what we would feel best about).

 

[Lucretius]

Huh? Eternal punishment for a finite amount of sinning can never be a rational decision of a moral God. That's like me kicking you in the face for eternity because you angered me last year.

 

[rasul]

Lucratius, your feelings about traditional concept of hell are understandable. If God doesn't love his enemies, could he expect that of us? And if he returns evil (enternal punishment) for evil (our temporal sins), can he expect us to return good for evil? If he doesn't love us first, how can we love him back? And holding a gun to your head unless you love him certainly doesn't seem like love. The descriptions of hell don't have to be taken literally (some of them are contradictory) so even if there is a hell, many Christians believe it doesn't involve physical torture. That may not help much, because emotional or spiritual torture can be just as much torture as the physical one. However, this non-physical kind of torture is self-inflicted and not inflicted by God. And you may be experiencing it even now, because hell is not an eternal torture chamber, but a condition of separateness from God. Just as God loves you now, God will continue loving you in the next life also, whatever your opinion of him. Just as you resist him now (although it's probable that you are resisting false notions of God: if someones is trying to persuade you to believe in a God who doesn't seem loving, continue looking elsewhere), it may be possible to resist him in the next life also. If someone decides against going to heaven even in the next life, is the eternal hell the only remaining option? If God really values our freedom so much, I believe he will give an option of metaphysical suicide (annihilation) to those who absolutely refuse God's love. However, refusing God's love once one experiences it remains for me in the realm of logical possibility but actual impossibility. Ultimately, it's not a question of anyone going to hell, but how soon will everyone enter heaven. Heaven and hell are happening right here, right now. Evangelism should never be out of fear that those who have never heard the gospel will go to hell. The fact is, they already are in hell, and it's Christian's duty to rescue as many out of this earthly hell and bring them into heavenly kind of life already here on earth. As for the end of times, God will make sure to destroy hell and evil out of any part of his universe and make everything very good again:

1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You can't really CHOOSE to go to hell anyways… God made you, he made you with choices and the knowledge you would choose those choices and their consequences. If God made you, the choices you will make, and the knowledge you will make the choices, how are you free to choose? If you don't take the choice he knows you will take then you are doing something God didn't know you would do, and because God knows all, this is impossible. So you are condemned to hell from day 1.

How can the Creator of all, create something that can create something that is totally free of him? A paradox.

If you agree that what I just stated is reasonable and fair, the following may be superfluous, but here it is. Even if there is no God, how are you free, because there is only one future? Even if there is no God, you are not free to do anything else tomorrow but what you will do tomorrow. Just wait until tomorrow and you will see I'm right. None of us, whatever our beliefs, has a time travel device by which we can prove that we were really free and could have chosen otherwise in a specific situation. So if you consider yourself free in a godless, random universe, adding an outside observer -- God -- doesn't change your freedom at all. Because God decided to create a universe and knew that you will be born in it, in some sense he did predestine everything that you have done and will do, but your freedom remains intact: God is not forcing you to do anything. Now, if God is not just a passive observer, a distant first cause, he may try to win you to his side, but this is persuasion, not possession, so you still remain free. God knocks on the door of your heart, and if you don't open it, rest assured that he will never break in.

It's reasonable to expect of God not to be only an abstract concept out of an old book, if he is real and interested in us. If you need him to prove to you that he is real, that's what the prayer is for. Debates never accomplish much of value in the end. In the meantime, I think it's reasonable to try to live morally even if morality is just a human construct, even if God doesn't exist (and I'm not saying that you don't, only you and God know if that's the case). And we humans, whether by our own reason or with the help from God, still haven't figured out anything better than the Golden Rule, whether Jesus or Confucius says it. As Albert Camus said: 'Can one be a saint if God does not exist? That is the only concrete problem I know of today.'

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18 (Buddhism)

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12 (Christianity)

"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23 (Confucianism)



God bless you in your seeking after truth.

 

[Lucretius]

If you agree that what I just stated is reasonable and fair, the following may be superfluous, but here it is. Even if there is no God, how are you free, because there is only one future? Even if there is no God, you are not free to do anything else tomorrow but what you will do tomorrow. Just wait until tomorrow and you will see I'm right.

Time is linear. What I do today will have an affect tomorrow but it is not predestined. I don't have to adhere to the choices God made in me. I can do what I wish. That is free will.

None of us, whatever our beliefs, has a time travel device by which we can prove that we were really free and could have chosen otherwise in a specific situation. So if you consider yourself free in a godless, random universe, adding an outside observer -- God -- doesn't change your freedom at all. Because God decided to create a universe and knew that you will be born in it, in some sense he did predestine everything that you have done and will do, but your freedom remains intact: God is not forcing you to do anything. Now, if God is not just a passive observer, a distant first cause, he may try to win you to his side, but this is persuasion, not possession, so you still remain free. God knocks on the door of your heart, and if you don't open it, rest assured that he will never break in.

If God knows what you are going to do, and he is always right, you have to adhere with what he knows you are going to do, or else he is wrong and that is impossible. Without God, I can do whatever I want, without a puppetmaster in the background.

It's reasonable to expect of God not to be only an abstract concept out of an old book, if he is real and interested in us. If you need him to prove to you that he is real, that's what the prayer is for. Debates never accomplish much of value in the end. In the meantime, I think it's reasonable to try to live morally even if morality is just a human construct, even if God doesn't exist (and I'm not saying that you don't, only you and God know if that's the case). And we humans, whether by our own reason or with the help from God, still haven't figured out anything better than the Golden Rule, whether Jesus or Confucius says it. As Albert Camus said: 'Can one be a saint if God does not exist? That is the only concrete problem I know of today.'

Prayer is pointless, you know I tried it once? I asked God to let the Mariners win a baseball game, and they lost, and now they are horrible. I live perfectly morally without a God. He is not necessary for me to do good deeds. I use my reasoning over my emotions; that is how I act moral.

This was a good post btw.

 

[rasul]

Time is linear. What I do today will have an affect tomorrow but it is not predestined. I don't have to adhere to the choices God made in me. I can do what I wish. That is free will.

If God knows what you are going to do, and he is always right, you have to adhere with what he knows you are going to do, or else he is wrong and that is impossible. Without God, I can do whatever I want, without a puppetmaster in the background.

The Christians generally believe that in our natural state we have a free will only to sin: it's possible to avoid a specific sin at a specific time through sheer force of will, but over a longer period of time it's pretty much certain that every human being that lives into adulthood will sin. Now the point of a major division in Christendom is whether we can by our own will accept gospel once we hear it, or whether a supernatural intervention on our free will is required.

The Calvinists say the latter: we are so spiritually dead that we wouldn't even want to get saved, even if the gospel was presented to us in all its glory, so God has to override our will and give us a new will which will chose him. This is predestination in a classical sense, and the major problem with it as I see it is that evil wouldn't have any chance of existing in the world for any period of time if God decided so, and everywhere around us we can see that that's not the case. Another problem is that some Christians think this God predestines people to eternal hell (or annihilation, it doesn't change the moral picture much) by leaving them in their captivity to sin, even though he has the necessary power to put a stop to all sin by simply overriding everyone's will to sin. This would be analogous to the allies storming the Auschwitz, freeing some people, and leaving others at the mercy of the Nazis. This would be a major flaw in the benevolence of the diety, so I personally can't believe in such a God.

The Arminians say the former: none of us is totally spiritually dead to not recognize what is good and what is evil. We have the proof of that everywhere: our natural response is to love those who love us. Almost all religions contain the golden rule and affirm that it's good, although it's hard to practice it consistently. So God takes us in the place where we are -- knowing what is good and wanting to do it but being unable to -- and enables us to do good even beyond what is natural for us. When we see that God is love and that he is the perfect father, we naturally love him back, and after that even start doing supernatural things like loving our enemies, forgiving those who hurt us, etc.

This certainly seems better than Calvinism, but for the Christians who believe in eternal hell there still remains a moral problem, although it's not so obvious as in Calvinistic system. If God knew that if he created the world, everyone would reject him, and thus condemn themselves to eternal hell, almost all Christians would affirm that God would then refrain from creating the world. What if a large or small number of people chose against God? God would be pulled in two directions: he would want to create the world because all of those who would chose him, and he wouldn't want to create the world because all of those who would reject him. Now, if God still created the world, and eternal hell exists, it's certainly logically deductible that God loves the saved more than he loves the damned, or that he even hates the damned. The often given excuse that the damned had their chance doesn't help much. So, the only two moral alternatives are annihilationism (the damned chose to cease to exist, so in a sense, they role-play their vision of a godless universe right until the end, with the exception that their illusion is briefly shattered) and universalism (everyone choses God freely in the end; rejecting God and ultimate bliss of heaven wouldn't be a sign of free will but of insanity). I'm leaning toward the latter because I believe that God's will to save is stronger (though never intrusive) than any human will to reject God. There are good historical reasons to believe that in the early church there were many universalists. Augustine, who believed in eternal hell, wrote: "There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures do not believe in endless torments."

I'm sorry for going into all this if you are already familiar with different sects within Christianity. Of course there are many other Christian belief systems, but most of them are calvinistic, arminianistic, or universalistic, depending on their beliefs on God's foreknowledge, predestination, and human nature and will. To go back to the main issue, you seem to think that if God exists, he is a calvinistic God. Or it may be you are picking an easy target, because it's so easy to point out moral deficiencies of a calvinistic God. Whichever the case, this is not the understanding of God of most Christians (I may be wrong on this, I'll have to find some statistics). God is the first cause, but his foreknowledge of your future doesn't cause or determine in a strict sense your choices: God made a choice to make you but is not making choices in you. In fact, it's the other way around: your future choices cause and determine God's foreknowledge. It's like God has a time-travelling machine and travels into the future to see what you will do. If he then goes back into the past, does this violate your free will in any way? Most Christians believe that God is outside of time, as he created it together with space; even many atheist scientist believe that time had a beginning. So who knows what a being outside of time can and cannot do, without destroying our free will? To put it another way, if a God creator who doesn't know the future existed, you would probably agree that you had a free will: you do what you want to do and no one, including God, knows what you will do. Now, what if this God, 5 years from now, somehow acquired the ability to predict the future (by building a supernatural supercomputer for this purpose)? Five years from now are you still the same old you with the ability to make free choices, or did you suddenly lose that ability, just because a God, another human, or an alien can perfectly predict what your choices will be? You are not that concerned with the fact that some people around you know the pieces of your past, and you know that your past choices were free (or they wouldn't be choices, just outworkings of a complex machinery which even has an illusion of making free choices). So if your future is like your past from God's perspective, how does any of this change your free will? If you wish you had some choice in the decision whether you'd exist or not, your free will certainly doesn't extend that far even if God doesn't exist. In either case, your free will is within the confines of reality: you might say something like 'I swear that by my own free will I will become richer than Bill Gates' but all you could do is try, and in the end to wish is not the same as to will. To conclude, God predestined you to do what you wish. God may be a time-travelling voyer in the background, but he is not 'a puppetmaster in the background'.

Prayer is pointless, you know I tried it once? I asked God to let the Mariners win a baseball game, and they lost, and now they are horrible.

Well, you put God in a tight spot. What if there were many more prayer warriors praying for the other side? Or what if God has a rule that he never interferes in sports games? Even God cannot do the impossible -- both sides winning the same game . Anyways, you can always you try it again with something that you know no one else has any motives in praying against.