Hebrew Christian

Dave-W · Feb 11, 2015

NR - WHEN are you going to accept the fact that there exists a Judaism that is a TRUE Judaism - more true than Rabbinic Judaism - that fully embraces the New Covenant scriptures and DOES believe in Paul's "One New Man?" (but not in a way that denies being Jewish)

We do not deny the talmudic rabbis had no good thing to say about Yeshua or his followers and set their lives to keeping the Gospel away from their people. If you do not accept their pronouncements against Yeshua/Jesus and His followers, why do you let THEM define "Judaism?"

visionary · Feb 11, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
NR - WHEN are you going to accept the fact that there exists a Judaism that is a TRUE Judaism - more true than Rabbinic Judaism - that fully embraces the New Covenant scriptures and DOES believe in Paul's "One New Man?" (but not in a way that denies being Jewish)

We do not deny the talmudic rabbis had no good thing to say about Yeshua or his followers and set their lives to keeping the Gospel away from their people. If you do not accept their pronouncements against Yeshua/Jesus and His followers, why do you let THEM define "Judaism?"

4000 years of searching the scripture, does give them some insight. Remember even Paul said that they were only "blind in part". That means there are things they saw that we can benefit from. Some of that insight is in the very colloquial sayings found within the New Testament that help us understand what "the camel through the eye of a needle" means, for example.

Danoh · Feb 11, 2015

visionary said:
4000 years of searching the scripture, does give them some insight. Remember even Paul said that they were only "blind in part". That means there are things they saw that we can benefit from. Some of that insight is in the very colloquial sayings found within the New Testament that help us understand what "the camel through the eye of a needle" means, for example.

Not necessarily - it depends on one's approach and the dogma said approach can lead to over time and that then becomes the system through which all things are determined right or wrong.

The warning bell against that being the possibility ever sounds the same - "well, that goes against the tradition of the fathers..."

The Lord encountered this very issue throughout His three and a half year ministry. So much so that even He would at times lament "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word," John 8:43.

What happens in such cases is that one who appears a sage before others is in reality still one fitting the description below; thus the Lord's warning...

Luke 20:

46. Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
47. Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

What is actually the case in such cases is what the writer of Hebrews [whoever he was] lamented as having been his own experience among his own when attempting to speak on the New Covenant's actual basis - Jesus the Christ; Son of the Living God: the King of Israel:

Hebrews 5:

11. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

What can sometimes be the case is the sage appearing the sage, and yet, actually still a babe as to his true skill in the eyes of the Scripture.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" your ears "dull of hearing" your own tradition...over the Scripture.

visionary · Feb 11, 2015

Then Nicodemus comes to learn. Then one of the leaders of the Sanhedrin comes forward to warn them that this might not be a good idea. In other words, not all are "dull of hearing" not all are uninspired. Anna and Simeon were spiritually awake to know the time and they came because they were prepared, look forward, and seeking to see their Messiah.

What I am getting at is that the few leaders that got a chewing out is not everyone. It is just like today. It is a mixed bag no matter what group you look at. Those voices of the truth, speak to the heart of fellow hearers of the word, and they know when God's signature is upon it. We can do the same today. We fear no evil, for He is with us, He will guide us.

Dave-W · Feb 11, 2015

visionary said:
NR - WHEN are you going to accept the fact that there exists a Judaism that is a TRUE Judaism - more true than Rabbinic Judaism - that fully embraces the New Covenant scriptures and DOES believe in Paul's "One New Man?" (but not in a way that denies being Jewish)

We do not deny the talmudic rabbis had no good thing to say about Yeshua or his followers and set their lives to keeping the Gospel away from their people. If you do not accept their pronouncements against Yeshua/Jesus and His followers, why do you let THEM define "Judaism?"

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4000 years of searching the scripture, does give them some insight. Remember even Paul said that they were only "blind in part". That means there are things they saw that we can benefit from. Some of that insight is in the very colloquial sayings found within the New Testament that help us understand what "the camel through the eye of a needle" means, for example.

I was specifically addressing NotReligious whom I know from another forum. (GraceCentered) He and I have mixed it up several times over there. He has an agenda of proving that Messianic Judaism is false and that we are tied to the rabbinic authority. He dislikes what he sees as Jewish "ethnic superiority." (and accepts no other viewpoint)

I usually do not do personal attacks but I am just saying he has an agenda against us.

Lulav · Feb 11, 2015

Then take it to PM, it doesn't belong out on the forum, it only causes confusion.

The basic difference between Christian and Messianic is that most (and getting less, sadly) Jews and Gentiles believe that the Torah was not done away with. That G-d created the Holy Days and these are his days to be kept date with. Others are made 'Holy' by mans authority. But there are those who do everything in between. So it's more of a leaning, than cut and dried.

Steve Petersen · Feb 11, 2015

I have been reading the Talmud for several years. The passages that most post to denigrate the Talmud and rabbinics are always distorted or poorly researched.
For the very few that are interested in knowing the truth about the alleged Talmudic calumnies against Jesus I suggest this site:

Jesus In The Talmud

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

pat34lee · Feb 11, 2015

visionary said:
4000 years of searching the scripture, does give them some insight. Remember even Paul said that they were only "blind in part". That means there are things they saw that we can benefit from. Some of that insight is in the very colloquial sayings found within the New Testament that help us understand what "the camel through the eye of a needle" means, for example.

That is like the saying "Practice makes perfect" and is not true. Practice makes permanent. You can read the scriptures all your life, and unless Yahweh opens your eyes, they are mere stories.

This is not even an example of reading works by someone before Yeshua came or who didn't know him. The talmud was written by those who knew exactly who he was and rejected him. You cannot separate that from the books.

visionary · Feb 11, 2015

pat34lee said:
That is like the saying "Practice makes perfect" and is not true. Practice makes permanent. You can read the scriptures all your life, and unless Yahweh opens your eyes, they are mere stories.

This is not even an example of reading works by someone before Yeshua came or who didn't know him. The talmud was written by those who knew exactly who he was and rejected him. You cannot separate that from the books.

Blanket statement.. we know that "all" "always" "never" is not an accurate statement. This forum has many collected Talmud finds that we can see Yeshua described.

I have no disagreement that unless God opens your eyes, the life found within the words will be missed.

Danoh · Feb 11, 2015

visionary said:
Then Nicodemus comes to learn. Then one of the leaders of the Sanhedrin comes forward to warn them that this might not be a good idea. In other words, not all are "dull of hearing" not all are uninspired. Anna and Simeon were spiritually awake to know the time and they came because they were prepared, look forward, and seeking to see their Messiah.

What I am getting at is that the few leaders that got a chewing out is not everyone. It is just like today. It is a mixed bag no matter what group you look at. Those voices of the truth, speak to the heart of fellow hearers of the word, and they know when God's signature is upon it. We can do the same today. We fear no evil, for He is with us, He will guide us.

Gxg (G²) · Feb 18, 2015

Open Heart said:
As a Hebrew-Catholic I certainly call myself a Christian. I feel a sense of solidarity with Christians in the churches, especially of course my fellow Catholics. And although there are no other Hebrew-Catholics in my parish, there are many around the world with whom I am connected.

If I may say...

I am glad for the many places within Apostolic Christianity/Ancient Faith that really make the practice of Jewish living a prominent issue. In example, one can consider this article about a Hebrew-speaking Orthodox community in Israel, headed by an Arab priest and attended mostly by Russians. There's also Father Alexander Winogradsky Frenkel , an Orthodox priest serving a small community of mostly Jewish believers in the Old City of Jerusalem. He serves liturgy in Hebrew, though his tremendous linguistic abilities and repertoire of languages enable him to incorporate several other spoken languages for the benefit of those who come to worship with him - and for more one can investigate Support A Hebrew Priest in Jerusalem..or go to the following:

Hebrew in the Church

There's also the work of Brother Gilbert who has done a lot of good review on what's known as Second Helsinki Conference: Jews in the Church (more shared here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here), a gathering of Jewish-Christian scholars from multiple denominations for a “discussion of crucial issues concerning the relationship of the Body of Christ to the people of Israel.”

More on the issue of Jews within Liturgical circles has been covered elsewhere - as seen before here (if interested):

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Jews in the early Church looked at gentiles that wanted to be Christians with skepticism and now it seems it is the reverse. There IS an Orthodox Priest in Jerusalem that celebrates the Liturgy in Hebrew and it is incredible! Shalom

Gxg (G²);65996327 said:

I know I'm a bit late to this thread - but I must say that it is interesting to see some of the responses that I've witnessed over the years. For what's ironic to me is that Orthodoxy in the Early Church used to be where Jews wondered "What to do with the Gentiles?" (Acts 10-11, Acts 15-16, etc.) and then it switched over time to "What to do with the Jews?" - and yet it has switched again with both Jews (who are angry and have seen a lot of stereotypes) and Gentiles (within Messianic Congregations) say "Who needs the Church!!!"....but the reality is that the Church itself was always Jewish in origins.

Some of this reminds me of what happened when others were over-reacting to other Orthodox wishing others a "Happy Hannakuh" and reacting with the caricature that all who do so are promoting "Judaizing" - but thankfully, that was addressed there - well as here and in #114.

It is for this reason that I will always be thankful for others such as Fr. James Bernstein ( co-founder of Jews for Jesus and a long-time Orthodox priest) share on the essential concepts of Christianity and setting the record straight - just as other Jews have within Orthodoxy (NOT a minority experience, to be clear) have noted.

The Jewish Roots of Orthodox Christian Worship - Fr. A.J. Bernstein - YouTube

This is something one of my Jewish friends noted to me when it came to his processing on the matter - and why attending Messianic Jewish synagogues (as well as Orthodox Jewish Synagogues ) was helpful for him and yet something he had to wrestle with A LOT when it came to some of the views he advocated before coming to Christ that kept him from really seeing Christ because of his desire to remain separate from the Church

As he said best:

When Yeshua came, the Jews of that day had a choice to either get on the bus with Jesus or not. Judaism chose to go another way and has been going their own way since Messiah.

Now even though we had no choice about our not being connected to the real body of Christ.... (and I say real because they were the only ones to stay with the same body since 33 AD, we as the Messianic movement are truly a type of Protestantism that was an offshoot of Roman Catholicism which was an offshoot of the Orthodox Church which are the guys doing it since 33AD.

Ok, so here's the crux of what I'm saying: We are at a point in our lives and walk where we have the same choice as the Jews in Jesus' time. We can either get on the Jesus bus or go off and do it our way, with the real possibility that we would only be connected to the body of Christ in our imaginations.

As weird, foreign and just seemingly wrong as some things may look to us now, could it not be because we were so far removed from what the continuous and historical body of Christ was doing, that it looks to us like they're the ones that are off base?

We like Martin Luther an all Protestants believe in sola scriptura (only scripture) but didn't Jesus say that the only way for us to be healed and become more like Him is to do it in the context of His body? And as precious as Scripture is, I don't believe anymore that Jesus intended us to live with just the Bible.

....I, for one, cannot with good conscience and full knowledge of the mistake my Jewish brothers made at the time of Yeshua, choose to go my own way. I must learn the ways of the church, as they have been going since 33AD and I have been at it 30 yrs (at a disadvantage at that).

I love you guys and am so very excited that God brought us all together with hearts in agreement and that He loves us enough to get us reconnected with our true roots. The truth is, when I got on the Jesus bus I had to say goodbye to my Jewish brothers because I just cant be on two busses at once. I was just thinking I could. I will always be a Jew but I am a Christian first. And I need to remember where my allegiance belongs.

Gxg (G²);65169708 said:

...Father James Bernstein who did an excellent study on the issue via his book Surprised by Christ.

For more:

Fr. James Bernstein and Orthodoxy; Jewish and Christian - OoCities

Fr. James Bernstein: From co-founder of “Jews for Jesus” - Ancient Christian Defender
[*]

Being Jewish himself and coming out of Modern Judaism after seeing the ways Orthodoxy echoed the Judaism of Christ's day/what the Hebrews advocated, Bernstein did some wonderful study on the subject. I found it amazing that one of the early J4Js (Jews for Jesus) Founders ended up an Orthodox priest, saying that Orthodoxy is more Jewish - something that's not really surprising since many Jewish believers have always desired a more Temple Like format with prayer/intercession - and for the former J4J leader as well as many others, it's significant to have a much more liturgical environment than what's found in most Messianic fellowships since they are influenced by much of the Evangelical Protestant culture that is not of a liturgically oriented venue.

Father Bernstein’s most valuable contribution in the book, to my mind, is an account of his quest to trace the history of the original Jewish Church in Jerusalem, headed by St. James. Studying sources from the New Testament to Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew to the 3rd and 4th century historians Eusebius and Epiphanius, to St. Jerome in the 5th century and onward. I was very thankful for much of what he noted when it came to Divine Liturgy and the ways it reflects the Temple era/Judaic heritage - as seen in Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church - The Divine Liturgy - Father James Bernstein .

Gxg (G²);65060703 said:

And as far as attending a traditional synagogues, I can definitely see the dynamic of others still appreciating what they grew up with. You don't reject all things you learned growing up in elementary school (from arithmetic to ABCs) simply because of being at more advanced levels - nor do you claim that nothing one learned from an atheist father (from how to drive to valuing being with family) is to be practiced simply because you came to believe in Christ and have completion in who you are.

ContraMundum said:

let's not forget for every disgraceful sentence aimed at the Jews there are plenty in Church history taking the other side of the argument. But good news and good words are not going to get any attention in the current political or religious climate, so let's just focus on bad stuff and be miserable about everything.

Gxg (G²);61384621 said:

There are always people on both sides of the spectrum...and indeed, others throughout church history do seem to be blasted for many of their stances and yet many in the Church who supported Jewish culture/history are ignored selectively. And for every complaint against people in Church history that've said damaging things against the Jewish people, there oftens seems to be a double-standard in promoting Philio-Semitism in thinking Jews have never done wrong/are incapable of it and ignoring the repeated anti-Christian/anti-Messianic sentiment that has also been done in many damaging ways......and ignoring the Anti-Gentile sentiments that've been expressed in multiple ways as well, from verbal damage to even times of physical harm. There is good/evil in all people...and demonization never is a good thing to do at any point when it comes to objectively seeing all sides of an issue---something I'm glad you've brought up before in other discussions whenever the issue has arisen (such as in threads like Jewishness of Ancient Church Tradition and #6 ). A lot of the things that were used to support anti-semitic thought from a religious perspective was often taken WAY out of context. In example, even individuals famed for being considered anti-semitic such as Martin Luther himself were known to be "pro-Jewish" at certain points---and I'm glad you pointed that out before...

.. Sadly, there are many others in differing camps that have often tried to make it out as if all things by the Fathers were automatically anti-semitic ..despite where there were Jewish fathers as well and many are not understood in the context they existed in when it came to living in an Empire already hostile toward Jewish people and many Jews having to go "undercover" ( more discussed on that here for example). I'm thankful for others who have sought to do so as well when not understanding the full context that the Early Church Fathers existed in....and other Jewish believers within the Church have often sought to note this--and for more, one can consider seeing Not My Church? | The Groom's Family and Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church .
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Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2015

notreligus said:
-A Jewish person who converts to Protestantism is referred to as a Hebrew Christian, not a Messianic Jew. -Messianic Judaism and Protestantism teach the biblical doctrine that salvation is a free gift from G-d, by faith in Yeshua.

Differences between Messianic and Christian

Why is this true? Why do Messianics seem to shy away from being called simply a Christian, and why is it that a Jew who converts to Christ and is a member of a Protestant denomination instead of becoming a member of a Messianic congregation called a Hebrew Christian rather than a Messianic Jew?

I know of a real life example. Zola Levitt, founder of Zola Levitt Ministries, was a Jew who converted to Christ and he referred to himself as a Hebrew Christian. He was a member of a Baptist congregation and I heard him speak at a Baptist church. He would have many Jews on his program who converted to Christ but he never made any issue out of Messianic Judaism vs. Hebrew Christianity. Why do Messianics make an issue of this?

How does one, being a Jew, "convert" to believing in their own Messiah? Gentiles would be the converts.

annier · Feb 21, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
How does one, being a Jew, "convert" to believing in their own Messiah? Gentiles would be the converts.

How do you define convert?

Lu 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn <1994> to the Lord their God.

Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted <1994>, strengthen thy brethren.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted <1994>, and I should heal them.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2015

Convert to a DIFFERENT religion. Convert to a different belief. I agree that we are all of Adam and Noach and Yeshua came for us all. My meaning was that a "Jew" does not "convert" to belief in our own Messiah. If anything, Gentiles would be the "converts" in that instance and under those definitions (which I was not the author of).

annier · Feb 21, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Convert to a DIFFERENT religion. Convert to a different belief. I agree that we are all of Adam and Noach and Yeshua came for us all. My meaning was that a "Jew" does not "convert" to belief in our own Messiah. If anything, Gentiles would be the "converts" in that instance and under those definitions (which I was not the author of).

Sorry, I am really not getting the distinction you are making. We are all converts (turned) to Christ IMO. Jew and Gentile alike.

aniello · Feb 21, 2015

It's like this:

Uncle Ben's® Original Converted® Brand Rice | White, Microwave Rice

It's still what it was, just filled with the indwelling of what makes it complete, full, finished, in a manner of speaking.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2015

Really? Gentiles followed Judaism? Gentiles were waiting for a Messiah? Gentiles received the Commandments? A Jew does not stop being a Jew whether they believe or do not believe in Yeshua. Acts 15 decided that non-Jews could follow Yeshua without converting to Judaism...for Jews there were no changes or converting to "Christianity". It is just a continuation as the post above allude to See the difference?

annier · Feb 21, 2015

Why doesn't the quote function work?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 21, 2015

Here is one way of looking at it...

To the Jew First, and Also to the Greek | Desiring God

annier · Feb 21, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Here is one way of looking at it...

To the Jew First, and Also to the Greek | Desiring God

Thanks for the link. I will have to finish it later, but I did read some. I still do not see the connection between the link and converting to religion or belief though. But I would like to address some of what I read uin the link anyway if that is ok?
First I do not agree with the ideas presented concerning the priority of the Jew's as natural son's.
I personally tend to the view that the natural son's are as firstborn, and have a double portion of inheritance.

One portion pertains to the earthly inheritance given for this world and this life. Covenant of Circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh.
And the other portion pertains to heavenly inheritance for the next world and the next life. Covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the heart

So yes Jew's have a portion not given Gentiles I agree. But the more glorious and excellent portion is the second. Which Gentiles are included.

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Just as Israel entered into the earthly portion of the promises as spoken here.......Gen 15 covenant with the fourth Generation of Abraham's seed...

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning : Heb. a lamp of fire}
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The second covenant, made with Abraham, beginning with the first generation of his seed, as sole heir, is as AN ONLY BORN SON, as sole heir.
Gentiles here share in this promise made to Abraham.
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
That's just a hint of my read of scripture, as a noachide Messianic.

So yes, Jews turned to Christ remain Jew's, as they do keep the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant their kinsman in the flesh also keep. The earthly worldly promises still remain for those which keep the circumcision by faith. They are back in the land today because of their double portion. But in Christ, like Isaac as an only born sole heir, we all have been given the much more excelling portion in him.

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