Hebrew Christian

[faroukfarouk]

How are Jews born again according to Torah?

The witness of the Old Testament has been complemented by the New Testament, where in John 3 the Lord Jesus says: 'Ye must be born again'.

 

[annier]

You have to live in the land before you can inherit the land.

Not true. The heirs of the promise were living in Egypt when the time of the promises to be fulfilled, to go in and inherit.

In order to inherit the land, your father must already own the land.

Nope. Abe did not have any inheritance in the land,

If you inherit the land, you must also live in the promise land.

Not true. Israel several times were not living in the land of their inheritance.....
I really do not see your posts addressing all the scripture I brought forth. Your posts just ignore them.

 

[mercy1061]

Not true. The heirs of the promise were living in Egypt when the time of the promises to be fulfilled, to go in and inherit.

Nope. Abe did not have any inheritance in the land,
Not true. Israel several times were not living in the land of their inheritance.....
I really do not see your posts addressing all the scripture I brought forth. Your posts just ignore them.

Do you understand that Abraham already lived in the land? You can never inherit anything unless it is already owned by your father. Israel was commanded to go in and possess the land.

 

[mercy1061]

The witness of the Old Testament has been complemented by the New Testament, where in John 3 the Lord Jesus says: 'Ye must be born again'.

Can you use Torah to explain the born again experience? If you can't, your understanding may be lacking. If a man is born, he must be born from his mother's womb. Do you agree?

 

[annier]

Do you understand that Abraham already lived in the land? You can never inherit anything unless it is already owned by your father. Israel was commanded to go in and possess the land.

I gave you scripture Which your posts are ignoring.
Here is what the promise says.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

As you can see this covenant tells Abraham he will die, and the covenant concerned the seed of the 4th generation.

As we are also told in acts

7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

As Hebrews explains

11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had faith they would inherit the land after the fourth generation did. After they had DIED.
As Joseph himself spoke of here

Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph knew their inheritance was in the next world and the next life. Their hope was always in the resurrection unto the heavenly inheritance.

WHY? because there would be no hope for what he already had.......

Because faith is the substance of things hoped for , and nobody hopes for what they already have.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Can you use Torah to explain the born again experience? If you can't, your understanding may be lacking. If a man is born, he must be born from his mother's womb. Do you agree?

This is what Nicodemus thought, but the Lord Jesus in John 3 corrected him.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I gave you scripture Which your posts are ignoring.
Here is what the promise says.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

As you can see this covenant tells Abraham he will die, and the covenant concerned the seed of the 4th generation.
As we are also told in acts
7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

As Hebrews explains
11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had faith they would inherit the land after the fourth generation did. After they had DIED.
As Joseph himself spoke of here
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph knew their inheritance was in the next world and the next life. Their hope was always in the resurrection unto the heavenly inheritance.

WHY? because there would be no hope for what he already had.......

Because faith is the substance of things hoped for , and nobody hopes for what they already have.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ms. annier:

Faith is indeed the key, as Hebrews 11 and Romans 8 and other passages say.

 

[mercy1061]

I gave you scripture Which your posts are ignoring.
Here is what the promise says.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

As you can see this covenant tells Abraham he will die, and the covenant concerned the seed of the 4th generation.

As we are also told in acts

7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

As Hebrews explains

11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had faith they would inherit the land after the fourth generation did. After they had DIED.
As Joseph himself spoke of here

Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph knew their inheritance was in the next world and the next life. Their hope was always in the resurrection unto the heavenly inheritance.

WHY? because there would be no hope for what he already had.......

Because faith is the substance of things hoped for , and nobody hopes for what they already have.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

You posted several scriptures showing that Abraham did not receive what he was promised, yet you say that you can not hope for what you already received. It is clear, that Abraham hoped for what he did not receive, however he also lived in the promise land hoping for a heavenly kingdom, the Amorites were evil in that day and grew more evil afterward. The problem with your theology is that you wish to claim Abraham's faith, yet you do not wish to walk like Abraham walked, you do not wish to walk where Abraham walked. Abraham walked by faith to the promise land, while he lived in the promise land. Abraham was a stranger or alien in the promise land, but he hoped for a day when his children would no longer be foreigners, but would become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel. Abraham's descendents would be called citizens in the kingdom of G-d, not least or illegal aliens, but great with an inheritance of their own.

 

[mercy1061]

This is what Nicodemus thought, but the Lord Jesus in John 3 corrected him.

I thought every man is born from his mother's womb? You care to post scriptures from Torah that support your view concerning born again experience?

 

[mercy1061]

Ms. annier:

Faith is indeed the key, as Hebrews 11 and Romans 8 and other passages say.

Faith is found in Torah, what about the born again experience?

 

[annier]

You posted several scriptures showing that Abraham did not receive what he was promised, yet you say that you can not hope for what you already received. It is clear, that Abraham hoped for what he did not receive, however he also lived in the promise land hoping for a heavenly kingdom,

Ok, so all the above you agree with the scripture in my post.

the Amorites were evil in that day and grew more evil afterward. The problem with your theology is that you wish to claim Abraham's faith, yet you do not wish to walk like Abraham walked, you do not wish to walk where Abraham walked. Abraham walked by faith to the promise land, while he lived in the promise land. Abraham was a stranger or alien in the promise land, but he hoped for a day when his children would no longer be foreigners, but would become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel. Abraham's descendents would be called citizens in the kingdom of G-d, not least or illegal aliens, but great with an inheritance of their own.

What, you want me to sacrifice my Children or what? Abe did that by faith too. this post makes no sense

 

[mercy1061]

Ok, so all the above you agree with the scripture in my post.

What, you want me to sacrifice my Children or what? Abe did that by faith too. this post makes no sense

When did Abraham sacrifice his children? Again it is very difficult to teach Torah if you are not practicing Torah.

 

[annier]

When did Abraham sacrifice his children? Again it is very difficult to teach Torah if you are not practicing Torah.

 

[annier]

Levi lived and died before the temple was built. The temple was not built until King Solomon. Israel needed a very wise king to build the first temple.

Again Mercy. Are you denying a temple is required for the Levites to perform their ministry? A straight answer will suffice.

 

[annier]

The promise was made to Abraham not the 12 sons of Jacob. This is the point Pharisee Saul is making, the promise was made to a gentile not a Jew. The law concerning circumcision, the altar, ark, were given to gentiles not Jews. Consequently, Gentiles must honor Torah like any devout Jew.

This is the problem with your posts. They do not address the points made from scripture in my posts ( I note this is how your posts respond to others regularly as well). Your posts just skip right over what they do not desire to address. Which spoke of the covenant concerning heirs of the land. Your post acknowledged Abraham received no inheritance in the covenant promises to the fourth generation of his seed. The seed which came from his own loins. So why are your posts going on about the covenant of circumcision, and the covenant law given at Sinai? Please address what my posts put forth.....
Paul does not say that the covenant was made to a Gentile. Do you wish to argue a Hebrew is a Gentile? Rather Jew is a term used to mean, one which is circumcised in the foreskin of the flesh. Why? Because the covenant of circumcision was in operation from the first generation of his seed. While the promises concerning the fourth generation may have been uttered first, it was not in force of operation first. Or as Hebrews puts it
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Gentiles, are not the fourth generation of his seed.
Abraham received the covenant of circumcision as a symbol of the faith that he had while yet uncircumcised.
Address for me please the covenant promises made to the fourth generation please. If not, then I will leave you to your monologue.

 

[Lulav]

Abraham

1. Isaac
2. Jacob
3. Levi
4. Kohath
5. Amram
6. Moses, Aaron, Miriam
7. Eleazar who went in with Joshua

Seems like more than four generations according to my count.

 

[mercy1061]

Again Mercy. Are you denying a temple is required for the Levites to perform their ministry? A straight answer will suffice.

Do you understand that the levites performed their duties in that days of Aaron when there was no temple? You have been been indoctrinated by those who do not honor Torah, I have heard this weak argument before, presented by those who wish to exempt themselves from keeping the whole Torah. Again, if you do not honor and obey Torah you present a very weak argument to those who truly practice Torah.

 

[annier]

Abraham

1. Isaac
2. Jacob
3. Levi
4. Kohath
5. Amram
6. Moses, Aaron, Miriam
7. Eleazar who went in with Joshua

Seems like more than four generations according to my count.

How are you reckoning the fourth generation Lulav?

Levi did not inherit with Israel. Nor was Levi counted among Israel.

Nu 1:49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:

Nu 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

De 10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.

So, it would appear the covenant to the fourth generation was not a covenant concerning Israel as a priesthood, nor the Lord being an inheritance either. As Levi, had no inheritance or count among them.

 

[mercy1061]

This is the problem with your posts. They do not address the points made from scripture in my posts ( I note this is how your posts respond to others regularly as well). Your posts just skip right over what they do not desire to address. Which spoke of the covenant concerning heirs of the land. Your post acknowledged Abraham received no inheritance in the covenant promises to the fourth generation of his seed. The seed which came from his own loins. So why are your posts going on about the covenant of circumcision, and the covenant law given at Sinai? Please address what my posts put forth.....
Paul does not say that the covenant was made to a Gentile. Do you wish to argue a Hebrew is a Gentile? Rather Jew is a term used to mean, one which is circumcised in the foreskin of the flesh. Why? Because the covenant of circumcision was in operation from the first generation of his seed. While the promises concerning the fourth generation may have been uttered first, it was not in force of operation first. Or as Hebrews puts it
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Gentiles, are not the fourth generation of his seed.
Abraham received the covenant of circumcision as a symbol of the faith that he had while yet uncircumcised.
Address for me please the covenant promises made to the fourth generation please. If not, then I will leave you to your monologue.

The promise was made to Abraham not the fourth generation. Do you think the law concerning circumcision, the altar, ark of the covenant including the mercy seat should be obeyed by Jews and gentiles? Even Noah built an altar and offered burnt offering. Do you agree with Noah?

 

[annier]

Do you understand that the levites performed their duties in that days of Aaron when there was no temple?

I understand the tabernacle was built. If this is the semantics your post plays with, it is tiresome Mercy. A temple was built as well. Once the temple was built, the tabernacle was no longer needed. So I ask you again the same question. Please just a simple response.

You have been been indoctrinated by those who do not honor Torah, I have heard this weak argument before, presented by those who wish to exempt themselves from keeping the whole Torah. Again, if you do not honor and obey Torah you present a very weak argument to those who truly practice Torah.

Again, I quoted Torah to you.I was talking torah to you Mercy! What are you talking about? Genesis is Torah too you know.