Hebrew Christian

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So yes, Jews turned to Christ remain Jew's,

That's nice that you agree Greeks "turned" to Christ remain Greeks. My point is that Yeshua was a JEW...not a Greek. Greeks convert, Jews do not. Greeks are grafted in...that was my only point. Belief in Yeshua IS the continuation of Judaism. Jews do not convert to something they are already a part of...

 

[annier]

That's nice that you agree Greeks "turned" to Christ remain Greeks. My point is that Yeshua was a JEW...not a Greek. Greeks convert, Jews do not. Greeks are grafted in...that was my only point.

You keep switching gears on me. At least from my own point of view. Making it difficult for understanding.
You mention grafting. Again this to me is the kingdom of Messiah which is the heavenly kingdom not the earthly. We are not graft into the earthly inheritance with the natural sons of the fourth generation. Those which are cut off, are those which are made void of the earthly inheritance. They can be graffed into the heavenly at anytime they turn to Christ.

Belief in Yeshua IS the continuation of Judaism. Jews do not convert to something they are already a part of...

First of all: the Judaism of first century as well as scripture, was Levitical, temple ministration. What is called Judaism today is not the same. They are not equal.
Second of all, Gentiles need not convert to either the temple ministration of Levi, nor are Gentiles heirs of the earthly inheritance, with the 4th generation. Nor was Abraham an heir with them. Take note of verse 15..

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Abraham is told he would die. This covenant is made concerning the fourth generation of his seed.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Acts tells us this as well

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

As the book of Hebrews also tells us
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Bottom line for me. I do not need to become an heir of the earthly kingdom of this life God promised concerning the fourth generation of his seed. The kingdom inherited in Christ is much more excellent.

 

[mercy1061]

Thanks for the link. I will have to finish it later, but I did read some. I still do not see the connection between the link and converting to religion or belief though. But I would like to address some of what I read uin the link anyway if that is ok?
First I do not agree with the ideas presented concerning the priority of the Jew's as natural son's.
I personally tend to the view that the natural son's are as firstborn, and have a double portion of inheritance.

One portion pertains to the earthly inheritance given for this world and this life. Covenant of Circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh.
And the other portion pertains to heavenly inheritance for the next world and the next life. Covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the heart

So yes Jew's have a portion not given Gentiles I agree. But the more glorious and excellent portion is the second. Which Gentiles are included.

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Just as Israel entered into the earthly portion of the promises as spoken here.......Gen 15 covenant with the fourth Generation of Abraham's seed...

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning … : Heb. a lamp of fire}
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The second covenant, made with Abraham, beginning with the first generation of his seed, as sole heir, is as AN ONLY BORN SON, as sole heir.
Gentiles here share in this promise made to Abraham.
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
That's just a hint of my read of scripture, as a noachide Messianic.

So yes, Jews turned to Christ remain Jew's, as they do keep the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant their kinsman in the flesh also keep. The earthly worldly promises still remain for those which keep the circumcision by faith. They are back in the land today because of their double portion. But in Christ, like Isaac as an only born sole heir, we all have been given the much more excelling portion in him.

Peter was already following Yeshua before his conversion or maturity. Sole heir means one heir, firstborn owns everything. Sole heir does not mean only one son. Abraham and Sarah planned for Ishmael to become heir, since he is the firstborn.

 

[mercy1061]

You keep switching gears on me. At least from my own point of view. Making it difficult for understanding.
You mention grafting. Again this to me is the kingdom of Messiah which is the heavenly kingdom not the earthly. We are not graft into the earthly inheritance with the natural sons of the fourth generation. Those which are cut off, are those which are made void of the earthly inheritance. They can be graffed into the heavenly at anytime they turn to Christ.

First of all: the Judaism of first century as well as scripture, was Levitical, temple ministration. What is called Judaism today is not the same. They are not equal.
Second of all, Gentiles need not convert to either the temple ministration of Levi, nor are Gentiles heirs of the earthly inheritance, with the 4th generation. Nor was Abraham an heir with them. Take note of verse 15..

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Abraham is told he would die. This covenant is made concerning the fourth generation of his seed.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Acts tells us this as well

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

As the book of Hebrews also tells us
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Bottom line for me. I do not need to become an heir of the earthly kingdom of this life God promised concerning the fourth generation of his seed. The kingdom inherited in Christ is much more excellent.

Abraham existed prior to the temple or Levi. Gentiles make a grave mistake insisting that Jews need the levitical priesthood or temple in order for a man to worship as a Jew. Abraham practiced circumcision and he built the altar. Noah built the altar and ark, Moses servant built the ark of the covenant.

 

[mercy1061]

Thanks for the link. I will have to finish it later, but I did read some. I still do not see the connection between the link and converting to religion or belief though. But I would like to address some of what I read uin the link anyway if that is ok?
First I do not agree with the ideas presented concerning the priority of the Jew's as natural son's.
I personally tend to the view that the natural son's are as firstborn, and have a double portion of inheritance.

One portion pertains to the earthly inheritance given for this world and this life. Covenant of Circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh.
And the other portion pertains to heavenly inheritance for the next world and the next life. Covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the heart

So yes Jew's have a portion not given Gentiles I agree. But the more glorious and excellent portion is the second. Which Gentiles are included.

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Just as Israel entered into the earthly portion of the promises as spoken here.......Gen 15 covenant with the fourth Generation of Abraham's seed...

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning … : Heb. a lamp of fire}
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The second covenant, made with Abraham, beginning with the first generation of his seed, as sole heir, is as AN ONLY BORN SON, as sole heir.
Gentiles here share in this promise made to Abraham.
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
That's just a hint of my read of scripture, as a noachide Messianic.

So yes, Jews turned to Christ remain Jew's, as they do keep the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant their kinsman in the flesh also keep. The earthly worldly promises still remain for those which keep the circumcision by faith. They are back in the land today because of their double portion. But in Christ, like Isaac as an only born sole heir, we all have been given the much more excelling portion in him.

Abraham was a gentile before he converted, gentiles were never excluded. The book of Hebrews and Torah mention Noah.

 

[annier]

Abraham was a gentile before he converted, gentiles were never excluded. The book of Hebrews and Torah mention Noah.

Gentiles do not inherit the promised land given to the twelve sons of Jacob.

 

[annier]

Abraham existed prior to the temple or Levi. Gentiles make a grave mistake insisting that Jews need the levitical priesthood or temple in order for a man to worship as a Jew.

Jew's need the temple to worship accordeing to the law given them by the hand of Moses.

 

[mercy1061]

Gentiles do not inherit the promised land given to the twelve sons of Jacob.

The promise was made to Abraham not the 12 sons of Jacob. This is the point Pharisee Saul is making, the promise was made to a gentile not a Jew. The law concerning circumcision, the altar, ark, were given to gentiles not Jews. Consequently, Gentiles must honor Torah like any devout Jew.

 

[mercy1061]

Jew's need the temple to worship accordeing to the law given them by the hand of Moses.

This is wrong, Abraham, Abel, Noah worshipped at the altar, even Enoch walked with G-d. If you do not honor Torah you can not properly teach a Jew how to obey Torah. Moses was not the first Jew, Moses only continued what was already taught by the fathers. Moses and Aaron were priests before the temple was built. It is very difficult to teach what you dont practice.

 

[annier]

This is wrong, Abraham, Abel, Noah worshipped at the altar, even Enoch walked with G-d. If you do not honor Torah you can not properly teach a Jew how to obey Torah. Moses was not the first Jew, Moses only continued what was already taught by the fathers. Moses and Aaron were priests before the temple was built. It is very difficult to teach what you dont practice.

Your posts do not respond well to what people post? It is as though you are responding to someone else's post not mine.
I said ...........
Jew's need the temple to worship according to the law given them by the hand of Moses.

Other than the above statement being obviously true, I spoke nothing of all this other stuff your post above is talking about.

 

[Lulav]

Where does it say that the promise of the covenant was to the fourth generation?

 

[mercy1061]

Your posts do not respond well to what people post? It is as though you are responding to someone else's post not mine.
I said ...........
Jew's need the temple to worship according to the law given them by the hand of Moses.

Other than the above statement being obviously true, I spoke nothing of all this other stuff your post above is talking about.

Do you understand that Moses and Aaron lived and died prior to the temple being built? The temple was built much later by Solomon. You do not need the temple to honor Torah. Jews do not need the temple to worship, Abraham and Moses worshipped at the altar.

 

[annier]

Where does it say that the promise of the covenant was to the fourth generation?

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

 

[mercy1061]

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Do you read the word again in the text? Again means not the first time, Abraham already lived in the promise land.

 

[faroukfarouk]

People are not born again of blood in any case (John 1.13).

 

[annier]

Do you read the word again in the text? Again means not the first time, Abraham already lived in the promise land.

Really mercy, not trying to be rude but.....Your posts tend to take things off topic. The conversation was not about where people would live. Slaves lived in all kinds of lands including the Hebrews in Egypt. Inheriting the land, is different than living in the land. As in a land of promise, for an inheritance..

 

[mercy1061]

Really mercy, not trying to be rude but.....Your posts tend to take things off topic. The conversation was not about where people would live. Slaves lived in all kinds of lands including the Hebrews in Egypt. Inheriting the land, is different than living in the land. As in a land of promise, for an inheritance..

You have to live in the land before you can inherit the land. In order to inherit the land, your father must already own the land. If you inherit the land, you must also live in the promise land.

 

[annier]

Do you understand that Moses and Aaron lived and died prior to the temple being built? The temple was built much later by Solomon. You do not need the temple to honor Torah. Jews do not need the temple to worship, Abraham and Moses worshipped at the altar.

So Mercy are you saying the temple is not required for the ministry of the Levites to be performed?

 

[mercy1061]

People are not born again of blood in any case (John 1.13).

How are Jews born again according to Torah?

 

[mercy1061]

So Mercy are you saying the temple is not required for the ministry of the Levites to be performed?

Levi lived and died before the temple was built. The temple was not built until King Solomon. Israel needed a very wise king to build the first temple.