Heaven

[AlexDTX]

From what I understand, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He is in Heaven currently. I know that there will one day be a new Heaven and a new Earth. I tnink that is true, we will be able to travel between both.

We are in heaven already if you have been born again. God made one creation. This creation has many dimensions. The spirit world is part of this creation. As people we have a body, which is three dimensions, but we also have a soul and a spirit, of which we do not know how many dimensions they have. Nonetheless, our soul and spirit are in us and Christ, through the new birth, dwells in our hearts and is joined to our spirits (1 Cor. 6:17). If then, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20), then we are at the right hand of the Father in Christ, too.

The quote you made, "to be absent from the body" does not refer to our deaths, but our walk of faith. Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that as long as we are focused on our natural lives we are blinded to the Lord, but if we die to selves and keep our focus on the Lord we will "see" him in the Spirit. We are in both worlds right now, but wear the blinders of mortality. When we have our glorified bodies, those blinders will be off.

Remember, there are only two people with natural bodies in heaven right now: Enoch and Elijah. Jesus is the only person in heaven with a glorified body. The rest of the saints in heaven are "ghosts", if I may use such a term, in that they are spirits wrapped in souls. When Jesus returns then everyone will have glorified bodies: first the dead in Christ then those who remain on Earth. We return to Earth in glory, which is our intended home.

 

[Galatea]

We are in heaven already if you have been born again. God made one creation. This creation has many dimensions. The spirit world is part of this creation. As people we have a body, which is three dimensions, but we also have a soul and a spirit, of which we do not know how many dimensions they have. Nonetheless, our soul and spirit are in us and Christ, through the new birth, dwells in our hearts and is joined to our spirits (1 Cor. 6:17). If then, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20), then we are at the right hand of the Father in Christ, too.

The quote you made, "to be absent from the body" does not refer to our deaths, but our walk of faith. Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that as long as we are focused on our natural lives we are blinded to the Lord, but if we die to selves and keep our focus on the Lord we will "see" him in the Spirit. We are in both worlds right now, but wear the blinders of mortality. When we have our glorified bodies, those blinders will be off.

Remember, there are only two people with natural bodies in heaven right now: Enoch and Elijah. Jesus is the only person in heaven with a glorified body. The rest of the saints in heaven are "ghosts", if I may use such a term, in that they are spirits wrapped in souls. When Jesus returns then everyone will have glorified bodies: first the dead in Christ then those who remain on Earth. We return to Earth in glory, which is our intended home.

I disagree with your interpretation, as would most people who read the Bible. If you read the entire chapter of II Corinthians chapter 5, it is pretty apparent that Paul is referring to losing this old body and gaining a new glorified body once in Heaven.

If this sin sick world is Heaven, my friend, we are a sad people. I hear of horror every day and am glad this is not my home, I'm just passing through. I know that the New Heaven and New Earth will one day be one, but we will live in Heaven until that time comes.

 

[AlexDTX]

I disagree with your interpretation, as would most people who read the Bible. If you read the entire chapter of II Corinthians chapter 5, it is pretty apparent that Paul is referring to losing this old body and gaining a new glorified body once in Heaven.

If this sin sick world is Heaven, my friend, we are a sad people. I hear of horror every day and am glad this is not my home, I'm just passing through. I know that the New Heaven and New Earth will one day be one, but we will live in Heaven until that time comes.

I do not say this sin sick world is heaven. I say our spirits are already in heaven. If you would like me to explain 2 Cor 5 in more depth, I will be glad to do so. But, I need to take a rain check right now, since I have to go to work. After I come back home, I will answer more fully for you.

 

[Radrook]

Descriptions of heaven are always provided in anthropomorphic ways in order to aid our understanding because very possibly our human language is inadequate in describing the things in the heavenly realm. Perhaps a description of heaven as an actual place would be more accurate if God would have conveyed it mathematically. But then the biblical readers would have been lost in the ensuing confusion and the Bible's message watered down for the sake of another agenda-description of a realm totally alien to our human senses-heaven. So all we can do is arrive at the general conclusion that residents of heaven experience it as a wondrous realm in which to live beyond our wildest human imaginations.

BTW
To me the greatest thing about heaven isn't heaven. To me the greatest thing about heaven is finally being close to my heavenly Father.

 

[Femina]

Yes, I understand. For you an image will focus your thoughts on the contemplation of divine things- or a beautiful stream or forest or flower will do the same. The quality and balance of something will generally decide its veracity.

Yes I went to Heaven itself in spirit so that it was a literal experience. I saw Jesus Christ and also Mary. Mary is obviously of Semitic origin and features and of course not 'Aryan' as on so many medieval icons. Mary is very beautiful as opposed to serene but plain. This also controverts a religious stereotype...

It is interesting however that not the traditional churches nor the post Reformation churches and not modern sects would accept the truths of heaven for the simple reason that spiritual reality always contradicts blind dogma, religious assumption and unfounded or partially founded tradition.

The more a believer fulfills the bible the more it will be quoted against them: The more they reveal Christ the more frightening they become to religious theorists: The closer they are to God the more believers will withdraw from them. So, how on earth is it possible you are comfortable in the Eastern Orthodox church? Tell me also about the heaven in your heart; you Femina, or anyone here so inclined.

Also, as you are new here you may find stories of miracles on CF edifying as in them Christ often reveals his power and grace- and what a qualitative change from the stress in the political threads!

Peace out

I find some of the things you write perplexing. Are you attacking my faith? I will do my best to answer your questions. I will begin by the heaven in my heart. You say heaven is a real place and to us Orthodox heaven is not so much a place as an experience of union with God- if we receive his love we are in bliss. Those who reject his love feel pain- hell. For me in my own humble way heaven begins on earth as I am blessed with union with God. It is like a lamp on the inside giving me warmth and light. I find it easy to pray and sometimes I cannot stop and sometimes I weep with joy. I sometimes see small pictures in my mind I think are put there by God. I don't say they are visions. Once I saw a beautiful red rose that gave off a wonderful scent. I keep such things to myself but since you asked...

Heaven is for real was a book about a little boy who saw the saints in heaven as people that were alive. He saw the Queen of heaven, Mary kneeling before the Father’s throne. This is how Orthodoxy sees her as one who intercedes for us. I believe all the saints pray for us but we are not meant to have conversations with saints. Do you speak to the saints you see in heaven? If so I would question that.

How can I bear the Eastern Orthodox church? Lol. A good tree bears good fruit, that's how!!!
St. Isaac the Syrian said,
“Blessed is the man who knows his own spiritual weakness, because this knowledge becomes for him the foundation, the root, and the beginning of all goodness.”
I am one in the true church in weakness, not as a teacher but I hope that sometimes my words will do good.

I hope I have answered your questions but not as well as you would like I think. You were trying to provoke me weren't you?

Peace also with you and with all.

 

[LinkH]

I feel rather chagrined about making a thread speculating about Hell, especially since it is not our final destination. It's a bit like wondering about a country you don't intend to visit. I'd rather talk about Heaven and some of the things we hope we'll get to do or see.

Are you implying that heaven is the 'final destination' for the believer? That's a common folk Christian belief, but where does the Bible teach it.

I had a conversation with a dean of a Bible college many years ago. I mentioned the idea of 'going to heaven when you die' to him. He told me something that I sort of know already. He said the Bible never says you go to heaven when you die. Since then, I tried to take this folk Christianity concept out of my vocabulary.

Paul said he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. That, and maybe another hint or two, may be used to argue for 'going to heaven.' But the Bible never teaches the final destination of the believer is disembodied bliss in heaven.

The hope of believers is not the 'hope of heaven'-- a phrase I've actually heard preached on. When we read about 'hope' we read about the hope of the resurrection. We read about the hope of Christ's return.

Christ will return to earth and the saints will be resurrection. We shall be like Him, John writes, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[7trees]

I find some of the things you write perplexing. Are you attacking my faith? I will do my best to answer your questions. I will begin by the heaven in my heart. You say heaven is a real place and to us Orthodox heaven is not so much a place as an experience of union with God- if we receive his love we are in bliss. Those who reject his love feel pain- hell. For me in my own humble way heaven begins on earth as I am blessed with union with God. It is like a lamp on the inside giving me warmth and light. I find it easy to pray and sometimes I cannot stop and sometimes I weep with joy. I sometimes see small pictures in my mind I think are put there by God. I don't say they are visions. Once I saw a beautiful red rose that gave off a wonderful scent. I keep such things to myself but since you asked...

Heaven is for real was a book about a little boy who saw the saints in heaven as people that were alive. He saw the Queen of heaven, Mary kneeling before the Father’s throne. This is how Orthodoxy sees her as one who intercedes for us. I believe all the saints pray for us but we are not meant to have conversations with saints. Do you speak to the saints you see in heaven? If so I would question that.

How can I bear the Eastern Orthodox church? Lol. A good tree bears good fruit, that's how!!!
St. Isaac the Syrian said,
“Blessed is the man who knows his own spiritual weakness, because this knowledge becomes for him the foundation, the root, and the beginning of all goodness.”
I am one in the true church in weakness, not as a teacher but I hope that sometimes my words will do good.

I hope I have answered your questions but not as well as you would like I think. You were trying to provoke me weren't you?

Peace also with you and with all.

No, I'm not attacking your personal faith but wondering about its nature.

As for union with God, it is easy to see of course that you are spiritual. I'll say more about this later.

I don't speak with saints or with God- as a norm. In the bible there are stories of believers speaking with God, angels and in the Revelation John sees the 24 elders. I try to question everything. Having visions of course I saw God, angels and saints.

I understand you are a fruit on a tree on EO but I wonder about how many fruits may be with you. You represent hope not typical experience...

Was I trying to provoke you? Yes. You answered like a Christian. Sometimes I ask a straight question hoping for a straight answer but get disdain and dismissal or get patronised in a very 'devout' way of course!

I'll ask you a question about the kingdom of Heaven within you- about your union with God. Others may answer this question but I may speak in a way that few may comprehend.

In regards the mortification of the flesh: At what point does the purification of the soul from sin extend to the 'deification', I believe EOs call it, of the soul to be peace and love itself- with no detection of darkness? Since it is one thing to be holy and not sin but another to be as Christ, which as you know the beloved apostle says we should, 'walk as he walks'.

Also to what extent in being immersed in God does one become one will with him? That is an extension of God himself: One essence like a sponge in the ocean.

When does the natural man desist its unconscious activity to so abide in Christ that every yoke is easy?

Also have you seen Christ- even in your mind's eye? If so we can share on that- or any other of the loved ones of God who may have seen Heaven or the Lord...

God bless people.

 

[LinkH]

I disagree with your interpretation, as would most people who read the Bible. If you read the entire chapter of II Corinthians chapter 5, it is pretty apparent that Paul is referring to losing this old body and gaining a new glorified body once in Heaven.

If this sin sick world is Heaven, my friend, we are a sad people. I hear of horror every day and am glad this is not my home, I'm just passing through. I know that the New Heaven and New Earth will one day be one, but we will live in Heaven until that time comes.

I can't speak for most people, but it seems to me that historically, rejecting the idea of the actual resurrection of the body would be considered heretical, based on the creeds and the Bible. Paul believed in an actual resurrection of the body and corrected those who disagreed with it, and those who believed it had occurred already.

 

[AlexDTX]

I can't speak for most people, but it seems to me that historically, rejecting the idea of the actual resurrection of the body would be considered heretical, based on the creeds and the Bible. Paul believed in an actual resurrection of the body and corrected those who disagreed with it, and those who believed it had occurred already.

Way to mindlessly step into a conversation without knowing what is being talked about.

 

[Galatea]

One of the things I hope to get to do in Heaven, or the New Earth, is to go to school. I know this might sound strange, but I'd like to learn all that I can about everything and be taught by some of the most brilliant minds that lived. I would just like to listen, too. To listen to them talk. This is something I've thought about often.

 

[LinkH]

Way to mindlessly step into a conversation without knowing what is being talked about.

If I've misunderstood your view, misunderstood it, or you have misstated it, please point that out.

I suppose one could believe that our corpses rise to 'heaven' or use 'heaven' to describe the air to which our bodies rise. But there is also a belief that our spirits get a new body 'up in heaven' after we die, and this one just stays in the earth. I thought you were subscribing to that belief.

 

[Femina]

No, I'm not attacking your personal faith but wondering about its nature.

As for union with God, it is easy to see of course that you are spiritual. I'll say more about this later.

I don't speak with saints or with God- as a norm. In the bible there are stories of believers speaking with God, angels and in the Revelation John sees the 24 elders. I try to question everything. Having visions of course I saw God, angels and saints.

I understand you are a fruit on a tree on EO but I wonder about how many fruits may be with you. You represent hope not typical experience...

Was I trying to provoke you? Yes. You answered like a Christian. Sometimes I ask a straight question hoping for a straight answer but get disdain and dismissal or get patronised in a very 'devout' way of course!

I'll ask you a question about the kingdom of Heaven within you- about your union with God. Others may answer this question but I may speak in a way that few may comprehend.

In regards the mortification of the flesh: At what point does the purification of the soul from sin extend to the 'deification', I believe EOs call it, of the soul to be peace and love itself- with no detection of darkness? Since it is one thing to be holy and not sin but another to be as Christ, which as you know the beloved apostle says we should, 'walk as he walks'.

Also to what extent in being immersed in God does one become one will with him? That is an extension of God himself: One essence like a sponge in the ocean.

When does the natural man desist its unconscious activity to so abide in Christ that every yoke is easy?

Also have you seen Christ- even in your mind's eye? If so we can share on that- or any other of the loved ones of God who may have seen Heaven or the Lord...

God bless people.

7Trees as far as heaven in our hearts and the purification of the soul I cannot tell you what you are not willing to receive. Isn't the word of God plain enough? I think you should join in an Eastern Orthodox church for a while to see for yourself if it is true. A man that can see heaven can perceive earthly truthfulness surely?

I know from how you write so forcefully that you seek perfection but are you perfect, since you speak of conquering sin? Or are you too a “religious theorist”? That is how you criticized others isn't it? The way of perfection is the way of faith. The way of faith is the way of humility. You see I can test you too! This is the richness of the Orthodox feminine vocation. I may be a woman but I swing a big 'sword of truth'.

You are too interested in visions and in details. It is true that in my mind's eye I have seen Christ as I pray. It is usually a beautiful image of a smiling face. This image is so filled with grace he makes me feel more than alive but he is so humble and kind it would make no difference if he were old or young- even a child, or black or white or Asian. I should not describe Christ as that is personal for me.

I am very typical in my experience of Eastern Orthodox spirituality. Women are called both to bring their distinctly feminine traits created and graced by God as a gift to all those they come into relation with. But they are also to respond to an individual call as were the women Jesus encountered in the Gospels. Mary Magdalene had a different call than Mary, Mother of Jesus, for example. Our Church service is a life of discipleship. We start at baptism and chrismation and we emphasize the golden rule of love to God and our neighbor. We also each have a place in our Christian community.

As for the purity of the soul our Church tradition is very ascetic. We do not advertise visions and dreams but submit to the teaching of the Patriarchs.

 

[One Son]

We are in heaven already if you have been born again. God made one creation. This creation has many dimensions. The spirit world is part of this creation. As people we have a body, which is three dimensions, but we also have a soul and a spirit, of which we do not know how many dimensions they have. Nonetheless, our soul and spirit are in us and Christ, through the new birth, dwells in our hearts and is joined to our spirits (1 Cor. 6:17). If then, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20), then we are at the right hand of the Father in Christ, too.

The quote you made, "to be absent from the body" does not refer to our deaths, but our walk of faith. Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that as long as we are focused on our natural lives we are blinded to the Lord, but if we die to selves and keep our focus on the Lord we will "see" him in the Spirit. We are in both worlds right now, but wear the blinders of mortality. When we have our glorified bodies, those blinders will be off.

Remember, there are only two people with natural bodies in heaven right now: Enoch and Elijah. Jesus is the only person in heaven with a glorified body. The rest of the saints in heaven are "ghosts", if I may use such a term, in that they are spirits wrapped in souls. When Jesus returns then everyone will have glorified bodies: first the dead in Christ then those who remain on Earth. We return to Earth in glory, which is our intended home.




(Quote)
Remember, there are only two people with natural bodies in heaven right now: Enoch and Elijah.


Matt.11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Before Jesus died there were none born of women in heaven.


Peace.


I

 

[7trees]

As for the kingdom of Heaven within then obviously the king must be seated upon his throne. Yet when he shines his light upon us we abhor ourselves- are given grace to repent and become more like the king. This action of God is so different to the emotion of tripping out in worship in which the Holy Spirit is assumed to be among Jewish unbelievers or Muslim unbelievers in Christ- as a modern Eastern Orthodox leading light taught.

Every spiritual word or term is used liberally by those who mistake certain psychological states for grace and gifts. Yet they always reveal themselves even after putting great effort into appearing righteous and spiritual. For instance one says he cannot judge if Roman Catholic saints are true or false... How then could he judge if he is true or false?- If you can't accept someone deeply spiritual and holy just because they are in the wrong denomination then God is hardly going to accept such a carnal and unbelieving Sadducee.

7Trees as far as heaven in our hearts and the purification of the soul I cannot tell you what you are not willing to receive. Isn't the word of God plain enough?

Yes, I did look within to find a greater sense of the light of God while meditating on that word and found greater peace- so in fact your prayers are answered.

I know from how you write so forcefully that you seek perfection but are you perfect, since you speak of conquering sin? Or are you too a “religious theorist”? That is how you criticized others isn't it? The way of perfection is the way of faith. The way of faith is the way of humility. You see I can test you too!

I am a religious theorist to the extent I am not perfect in knowledge; but in fact within myself I feel no volition toward the carnal will and sense no movement of the 'old man' or 'old creation' to usurp the grace of God. The will of God is fixed within me, immutable in everlasting stillness. Yet I am burdened by the flesh life as mud on my boots or as graffiti of the soul- as some say.

You are too interested in visions and in details. It is true that in my mind's eye I have seen Christ as I pray. It is usually a beautiful image of a smiling face. This image is so filled with grace he makes me feel more than alive but he is so humble and kind it would make no difference if he were old or young- even a child, or black or white or Asian. I should not describe Christ as that is personal for me.

You are quite right- It is the Spirit that counts.

As for the purity of the soul our Church tradition is very ascetic. We do not advertise visions and dreams but submit to the teaching of the Patriarchs.

Yet if John the apostle had followed that doctrine we would not have the book of Revelation- In fact that doctrine would deny us the bible. However it is good for EO not to advertise their modern visionaries.

 

[AlexDTX]

If I've misunderstood your view, misunderstood it, or you have misstated it, please point that out.

I suppose one could believe that our corpses rise to 'heaven' or use 'heaven' to describe the air to which our bodies rise. But there is also a belief that our spirits get a new body 'up in heaven' after we die, and this one just stays in the earth. I thought you were subscribing to that belief.

The conversation had nothing to do with the resurrection of the body. That is understood. It was about walking by faith. To absent from the body is to be present with the Lord does not refer to our physically dying, but to keep our mind on the Spirit and not the Flesh.

To be fair to you I answered Galatia in a private conversation. I felt a verse by verse commentary would not have fit in the thread.

 

[Femina]

As for the kingdom of Heaven within then obviously the king must be seated upon his throne. Yet when he shines his light upon us we abhor ourselves- are given grace to repent and become more like the king. This action of God is so different to the emotion of tripping out in worship in which the Holy Spirit is assumed to be among Jewish unbelievers or Muslim unbelievers in Christ- as a modern Eastern Orthodox leading light taught.

Every spiritual word or term is used liberally by those who mistake certain psychological states for grace and gifts. Yet they always reveal themselves even after putting great effort into appearing righteous and spiritual. For instance one says he cannot judge if Roman Catholic saints are true or false... How then could he judge if he is true or false?- If you can't accept someone deeply spiritual and holy just because they are in the wrong denomination then God is hardly going to accept such a carnal and unbelieving Sadducee.



Yes, I did look within to find a greater sense of the light of God while meditating on that word and found greater peace- so in fact your prayers are answered.



I am a religious theorist to the extent I am not perfect in knowledge; but in fact within myself I feel no volition toward the carnal will and sense no movement of the 'old man' or 'old creation' to usurp the grace of God. The will of God is fixed within me, immutable in everlasting stillness. Yet I am burdened by the flesh life as mud on my boots or as graffiti of the soul- as some say.



You are quite right- It is the Spirit that counts.



Yet if John the apostle had followed that doctrine we would not have the book of Revelation- In fact that doctrine would deny us the bible. However it is good for EO not to advertise their modern visionaries.

I think I may understand you as you seem to spend too much time thinking and too little time meditating on divine perfections. Mary the Queen of heaven could help you greatly if you pray directly to her. The Queen of heaven loves those like your self who she has revealed herself to.

When I was praying I had not a vision but a beautiful image of Mary in my mind firstly praying with her hands together and then opening her cloak to reveal her heart crowned with a golden crown of thorns. I was given this impression, that the Ever-Virgin has a heart just like her son Jesus. I say this as I believe this is a gift for you from the Ever-Virgin and I will continue to pray for you.

 

[7trees]

I think I may understand you as you seem to spend too much time thinking and too little time meditating on divine perfections. Mary the Queen of heaven could help you greatly if you pray directly to her. The Queen of heaven loves those like your self who she has revealed herself to.

When I was praying I had not a vision but a beautiful image of Mary in my mind firstly praying with her hands together and then opening her cloak to reveal her heart crowned with a golden crown of thorns. I was given this impression, that the Ever-Virgin has a heart just like her son Jesus. I say this as I believe this is a gift for you from the Ever-Virgin and I will continue to pray for you.

Thank you, but aren't you contravening Orthodox teaching? Shouldn't you first get the approval of your spiritual guide? However having said that the mystical image of the Virgin is holy and authentic. But what would I know, I am just the guy who was taken in spirit to Heaven by God...
As we are getting off topic perhaps any response might better be put in a private message? God bless you for your genuine love and the beauty of your holiness.

 

[LinkH]

Jeremiah 7:18
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

 

[Sammy-San]

Heaven is mind boggling. I heard someone say that they can understand why there's a Hell- but what is truly mind boggling is why there's a Heaven!

I don't understand what you mean by a wall being past Heaven.

Do you think the past is infinite too? I've read on the 924 Jeremiah site, regarding God (speaking in the context of the Trinity) that, "They know everything about everything, and Their knowledge extends infinitely in both past and future directions. "

 

[Galatea]

Do you think the past is infinite too? I've read on the 924 Jeremiah site, regarding God (speaking in the context of the Trinity) that, "They know everything about everything, and Their knowledge extends infinitely in both past and future directions. "

I'm unacquainted with the 924 Jeremiah site. Yes, I think God is timeless, outside of time. I believe the Bible states this. I have often wondered (this might be flaky, so bear with me) if in Heaven in our glorified bodies, we might be able to go through time- time travel, see the dinosaurs, maybe even see the beginning of the world. I don't know what the rewards in Heaven are, but maybe people who were faithful Christians will get to go back in time and see the world being spoken into existence (I am not insinuating I would be one of the ones given such a reward- I'm just speculating what might be).