Heaven

[Sammy-San]

He doesn't hate humanity as much as he hates not being God. And since God made us in his image, we are an easier target to attack. He knows he can not attack God, but he can hold His children ransom.

Do you view the article was unbibical?

 

[Sammy-San]

We know that Lucifer fell and became Satan at the latest in the garden of Eden since he brought about the fall of mankind. Since he caused the fall of mankind it doesn't make sense that he'd be jealous of our salvation. Frankly, I don't think they can be saved. If God could save them I think he would. My own speculation is that their being only spirits made their fall total. Whereas humanity being made in the image of God is tripartate so our fall in the had the work-ability of salvation since we are three parts not one part.

The Reasons Why Christ Redeemed Men Rather than Angels

III. NOT BECAUSE ANGELS, IF LEFT WITHOUT HELP, WOULD SUFFER LESS THAN MEN WOULD HAVE DONE IF THEY HAD BEEN SO LEFT. The greatest sufferings are not those of the body, but those of the mind and heart. And the measure of suffering endured by any one is regulated by his mental and moral capacity. Therefore, if our estimate of angelic capacity be correct, being left without redemption the sufferings of angels will be greater than man's would have been if he had been so left. Their vast powers must be terrible instruments of self-torture. Their remembrance of the irrevocable past must also augment their misery. Their recollection of their lost heritage must greatly increase the anguish which afflicts them. But we have no such memories. Only two of our race experienced the joys of that Eden from which sin has exiled us. We know not the peace and bliss of the human heart in its original state. Hence we conclude that the sufferings of angels are greater than those of men would have been if they had been left without the saving help of God.

II. BECAUSE EVERY FALLEN ANGEL CONSENTED TO THE TRANSGRESSION BY WHICH THEY FELL, WHILE MAN, THROUGH THE LAWS OF HIS BEING, SUFFERS FROM THE SIN OF THE FIRST TRANSGRESSORS TO WHICH THEY ALONE CONSENTED. The sin of the angels affected only those of their number who were guilty of actual participation therein. But the condition of every man is greatly affected through the sin of the first parents of our race. The way in which men are brought into being differs from that of angels. Generation obtains amongst men, but not amongst angels. We are born with an inclination, a bias, to that which is evil. Were it not for the grace of God, that inclination would be irresistible. If Christ had not come to our help, we must have been utterly ruined by reason of a transgression for which we could not possibly have been in any way responsible. Here, then, we have a very powerful reason why God should provide redemption for man rather than for angels.

 

[Sammy-San]

We know that Lucifer fell and became Satan at the latest in the garden of Eden since he brought about the fall of mankind. Since he caused the fall of mankind it doesn't make sense that he'd be jealous of our salvation. Frankly, I don't think they can be saved. If God could save them I think he would. My own speculation is that their being only spirits made their fall total. Whereas humanity being made in the image of God is tripartate so our fall in the had the work-ability of salvation since we are three parts not one part.

How does being spirits make their fall total?

 

[CrystalDragon]

We know that Lucifer fell and became Satan at the latest in the garden of Eden since he brought about the fall of mankind. Since he caused the fall of mankind it doesn't make sense that he'd be jealous of our salvation. Frankly, I don't think they can be saved. If God could save them I think he would. My own speculation is that their being only spirits made their fall total. Whereas humanity being made in the image of God is tripartate so our fall in the had the work-ability of salvation since we are three parts not one part.

Lucifer was never Satan, just a term for an arrogant Babylonian king in a proverb (Lucifer is a translation of Morning Star, which many kings at the time were known by, including Jesus). The serpent was never said in Genesis to be anything more than a serpent—the curse to slither on the ground wouldn't make sense otherwise.

 

[Sammy-San]

Lucifer was never Satan, just a term for an arrogant Babylonian king in a proverb (Lucifer is a translation of Morning Star, which many kings at the time were known by, including Jesus). The serpent was never said in Genesis to be anything more than a serpent—the curse to slither on the ground wouldn't make sense otherwise.

An animal, an amoral being, causing the fall of man? That makes no sense.

 

[CrystalDragon]

An animal, an amoral being, causing the fall of man? That makes no sense.

It may "not make sense" to you, but it's what the text outright states. Genesis 3 starts by saying that "the serpent was the craftiest of all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made", indicating that it was actually an animal. Plus the punishment, for the snake to slither on the ground, worked as an explanation for why snakes slither to this day. A punishment that makes perfect sense if it's an animal, not if it's an entity in disguise.

Not to mention those of the Old Testament didn't even have a concept of a devil. How the Serpent Became Satan - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[Sammy-San]

It may "not make sense" to you, but it's what the text outright states. Genesis 3 starts by saying that "the serpent was the craftiest of all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made", indicating that it was actually an animal. Plus the punishment, for the snake to slither on the ground, worked as an explanation for why snakes slither to this day. A punishment that makes perfect sense if it's an animal, not if it's an entity in disguise.

Not to mention those of the Old Testament didn't even have a concept of a devil. How the Serpent Became Satan - Biblical Archaeology Society

Animals are amoral-how could they make a person question God? This is preposterous.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Animals are amoral-how could they make a person question God? This is preposterous.

If I had the ability to I'd bring you back in time to take it up with whoever wrote Genesis. The text clearly states it's a just serpent, that was a beast of the field, punished to slither on the ground so serpents do so today, no matter what our misgivings and cries of "that makes no sense" may try to protest.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: HEAVEN..YES! (HELL=another op)

THERE is but ONE "heaven" (and ONE "earth")
provided for God (pure spirit) to relate to Man. (body/soul/spirit)
ONE heavenly REALM from which the pre-existent God "created".
ONE earthly REALM prepared by God on which Man and life can dwell.

No man has ever seen God the Father...only manifestations.

But my guess is that TRI-UNE GOD will not "appear"
as a king on his throne with angels flitting around in the clouds.
No man has ever "seen" God's SPIRITUAL REALM...only we only hearing promises of spiritual "eternal life".
There are no Biblical eyewitness reports by believers who went to "heaven" and returned to describe it.

John 4:24
God is spirit,
and those who worship Him
must worship in spirit and truth."

God the Spirit's spiritual realm is SPIRIT!

Psalm 99...Metaphors!
The Lord reigns, let the peoples tremble;
He is enthroned above the cherubim, let the earth shake!...
Exalt the Lord our God
And worship at His footstool;
Holy is He...
Exalt the Lord our God
And worship at His holy hill,
For holy is the Lord our God.

Revelation 21...Metaphors!???
Then I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth;
for the first heaven and the first earth passed away,
and there is no longer any sea.
And I saw the holy city, NEW Jerusalem,
coming DOWN out of heaven from God,
made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men,
and He will dwell among them, and
they shall be His people, and
God Himself will be among them, (Eden-like)
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes;
and there will no longer be any death;
there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
the first things have passed away."

2 Peter 3: 1-13...Paul's Prophecy of "The Coming Day of the Lord"...and New Heavens and a New Earth

But "the day of the Lord" will come like a thief, in which the heavens (atmosphere) will pass away with a roar and
the elements (living / matter) will be destroyed with intense heat, and
the earth and its works (people / life) will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way,
what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
looking for and hastening "the coming of the day of God", because of which the heavens (atmosphere) will be destroyed by burning, and the elements (living /matter) will melt with intense heat!
But according to His promise we are looking for "New Heavens and a New Earth", in which righteousness dwells.

John 14: 1-3 (NASB)....Jesus Comforts His Disciples
"Do not let your heart be troubled;
believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; (NOT heavens! Not apartments! Not SPACE!)
{"places"...Greek 3438...mone...a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode...metaphor of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers
if it were not so, I would have told you;
for I go to prepare a PLACE for you.
{place"... Greek 5117....topos...the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
If I go and prepare a place for you,
I will COME AGAIN (SECOND COMING!) and receive you to Myself,
that where I am, there you may be also.
And you know the WAY where I am going."

Matthew 3:16
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;
and behold, the heavens were opened, and
he (John the Baptizer + crowds) saw the Spirit of God DESCENDING as a dove and lighting on Him,

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

1 Peter 3:22
who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven,
after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 19:1 [ The Fourfold Hallelujah ]
After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
"Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

Wanna visualize what "heaven" is LIKE??

Revelation 21 (NASB) ...The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles;
its length and width and height are equal.
17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone.
The first foundation stone was jasper;
the second, sapphire;
the third, chalcedony;
the fourth, emerald;
20 the fifth, sardonyx;
the sixth, sardius;
the seventh, chrysolite;
the eighth, beryl;
the ninth, topaz;
the tenth, chrysoprase;
the eleventh, jacinth;
the twelfth, amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it,
for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and
the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27 and nothing unclean,
and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s "book of life".(saved believers)

 

[Ron Gurley]

"The serpent was never said ...to be anything more than a serpent..."

HMMM??

Revelation 12:9
And the "great dragon" was thrown down, the "serpent of old" (in E den?!) who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil (satan/serpent/dragon) who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (anti-Christ) and the false prophet (anti-spirit) are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God allowed satan/serpent/dragon/devil/Lucifer/Baal/etc into Eden to tempt A&E, to test their obedience to Him. That "evil" was the absence of God!

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold of the "dragon, the serpent of old", who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

 

[brianbe]

Where is the new heaven?

 

[Ron Gurley]

No devil/satan/serpent in the OT?? How about BAAL??

Zephaniah 1:4
“So I will stretch out My hand against Judah And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, And the names of the idolatrous priests along with the priests.

Romans 11:4
But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q: Where is the new heaven?
A: Its promise is in the present "heaven", waiting to descend to usher in Eternity. Bible search/Google: "New Heaven".
Where is the PRESENT "heaven"?

 

[brianbe]

Q: Where is the new heaven?
A: Its promise is in the present "heaven", waiting to descend to usher in Eternity. Bible search/Google: "New Heaven".
Where is the PRESENT "heaven"?

Thank you
for your reply Ron.
What doctrine is this?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Where is the "New Earth"...AND... the "New Jerusalem ??
Where is the "lake of fire" ?? Where is God ??
Where is the devil / demons ??

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q: What doctrine is this?
A: Ain't no doctrine...just a logical answer to a silly question.

 

[brianbe]

Q: What doctrine is this?
A: Ain't no doctrine...just a logical answer to a silly question.

Thank you
for your reply Ron.
I was wandering
if you just made that up.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Start here:

The New Heaven and New Earth - Our Final Ending in the Lord

 

[brianbe]

Start here:

The New Heaven and New Earth - Our Final Ending in the Lord

Thank you
for your reply Ron.
This is just another opinion among the millions
already opinionated.

 

[CrystalDragon]

"The serpent was never said ...to be anything more than a serpent..."

HMMM??

Revelation 12:9
And the "great dragon" was thrown down, the "serpent of old" (in E den?!) who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil (satan/serpent/dragon) who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (anti-Christ) and the false prophet (anti-spirit) are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God allowed satan/serpent/dragon/devil/Lucifer/Baal/etc into Eden to tempt A&E, to test their obedience to Him. That "evil" was the absence of God!

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold of the "dragon, the serpent of old", who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Revelation was written many centuries later, when the views of God and Satan had changed—in the Old Testament, God was in charge of both good and bad, where Satan in his sole appearance (in Job) was like God's prosecutor in a bet. In the New Testament the view changed so that God was seen as completely causing nothing but good and anything bad was attributed to Satan—this is even clear from the story of David being moved to take a census, while in the OT it says God did it and in the NT it was claimed Satan did it. The writers of Genesis itself had no intention of the serpent being Satan (who only existed in Job to them), all the text implies it being just a serpent. Revelation almost wasn't even included in the Bible.

No devil/satan/serpent in the OT?? How about BAAL??

Zephaniah 1:4
“So I will stretch out My hand against Judah And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, And the names of the idolatrous priests along with the priests.

Romans 11:4
But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Ball was just a false god of one of the other tribes. It's like saying Satan is the same as (insert any other false deity ever here). Those other gods were just idols that others worshipped. Nothing about Satan.