Healing is NOT in the atonement

[jeolmstead]

Well whattaya know! We can disagree and be civil about it! And there was much rejoicing...

Thanks for your gentleness in debating, John. Your posts are like a breath of fresh air.

That said, the reason I post so vigorously about Paul's thorn is because too many people use it to prove that God doesn't always heal, which is odd since the thorn is quite clearly called a "meseenger of Satan" and not a sickness anyway.

Hey, I've preached sermons that I would not preach now, (And everybody said Amen at the time) I learn, I grow, I change I didn't write the book, I just try to understand it. Hearing how others see it helps me to grow! I know when we see Him we will know and be like Him. Until then life is an adventure! God give us all more of you!

 

[probinson]

There is absolutely no question that it was a messenger "of satan", the scripture is positively clear about that. So knowing the finer points of what the word "thorn" means is absolutely superfluous.

Good point Tree. A messenger of Satan. Whom WE are told to resist:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Good point Tree. A messenger of Satan. Whom WE are told to resist:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Amen P!

 

[JimB]

*****
the reason I post so vigorously about Paul's thorn is because too many people use it to prove that God doesn't always heal, which is odd since the thorn is quite clearly called a "meseenger of Satan" and not a sickness anyway.

But Pete, couldn’t a “messenger of Satan” (2 Cor. 12.7) be a “spirit of infirmity” (Luke 13.11)?

Sincerely,
~Justin Case

 

[probinson]

But Pete, couldn’t a “messenger of Satan” (2 Cor. 12.7) be a “spirit of infirmity” (Luke 13.11)?

Sincerely,
~Justin Case

I suppose it "could" be, but again, it's not wise to build a doctrine on what we presume that the Bible might possibly be saying.

It's all moot anyway if you ask me. Whatever it was, the Bible is quite clear that it was from Satan, whom WE are to resist.

 

[JimfromOhio]

To restrict the gospel is to make the Gospel something it is not which is a different kind of Gospel. Too many of us want to have the temporal guaranteed healing while Christ died for our sins (eternal death), not for our health (physical death). The point for Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures is great news. Jesus purged our sins, He mediates grace to all who believe, is wonderful news for this sinful nature world. Our Messiah, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all Christians who did not reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God's will is for our redemption, adoption and the obtaining of our eternal inheritance in the heavenly blessings (Ephesians 3:10,11). God's gifts are many; His best gift is one which is the gift of Himself. Above all gifts, God desires most to give Himself to His people so that we can have eternal life instead of eternal death.

A true revival must include all manifestation of spiritual gifts and not one is greater than the other. One thing taught in the Bible is that while God gives His gifts freely, and healing is NOT the primary gift. God has also given us a wealth of opportunities to use in the Great Commission. An opportunity may be defined as a providential circumstance which permits us to turn ourselves to glorify God. In Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." This means that God is going to use me as His will to spread the gospel than we can live our life to God with temporal blessings. In the believing and surrendered soul, Christ lives His life again through US and continues to live in through US, that God will continue to work, reaching out and through the human instrument to accomplish His wonders among the lost around us. Of all gifts this is the most common, and it is the one which makes the other gifts of value to us and to mankind. The wise Christian will watch for opportunities to do good, to speak the gospel to the lost and pray the rescuing prayer of intercession for the Holy Spirit to convict the lost to know Christ.

The enemy of opportunity is preoccupation of temporal blessings. When God sends His Son along a chance to turn a great victory over eternal death (sin) for mankind, some of us are too busy focusing on temporal blessings to notice the real truth. While at the same time, people focus on temporal physical healing as just important as salvation. This kind of friction within the spiritual unity will lead to real damage to the Gospel. This kind of friction is created by man's doctrines. Now, it is impossible these days to get people to pay any attention to eternal blessings that really matter because people want God to be good so that we can have good temporal life before we physically die, unless we are physically healed, we would not die. It is our personal relationship with our eternal God really matters. That eternal life takes priority over everything else including temporal blessings. Christ revealed His holiness when He cried in His agony, "Not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42). Sin is the voluntary commission of an act known to be contrary to the will of God.

So, again putting healing ahead of eternal life is the different kind of Gospel. God's temporal gifts have their limitations because they are part of created temporary living. The true gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus is limitless and eternal. Whatever is possessed in our temporal life runs through its cycle from birth to death. After physical death, we return to dust but the life of God, we will never ceases because spiritual life is eternal.

 

[JimB]

I suppose it "could" be, but again, it's not wise to build a doctrine on what we presume that the Bible might possibly be saying.

It's all moot anyway if you ask me. Whatever it was, the Bible is quite clear that it was from Satan, whom WE are to resist.

Of course. It is not wise to do that on either side of the issue. From here, there is evidence (from my understanding of scripture) that Paul had some sort of persistent illness/disability (I go with the eye thing) that was sometimes debilitating, as in Galatians 4. So it is not a far jump for me to see in 2 Cor. 12 the possibility that the messenger of Satan was, indeed, a spirit of infirmity because the problem was in his “flesh” (v.7).

Anyhow, that’s how I see it. And I admit, I could be wrong.

Sincerely,
~Ann Teake

 

[Atlantians]

I suppose it "could" be, but again, it's not wise to build a doctrine on what we presume that the Bible might possibly be saying.

Which is exactly why we disagree with the doctrine of healing so commonly proclaimed in this Pentacostal forum.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been patiently reading through the posts on these healing threads and every one of your responses have merit, and saying fairly reasonable things.

The problem is, of course, that God is not healing people on demand today. This seems to be a contradiction to what has clearly been promised in God's Word, and in the type of ministry that Jesus exemplified during His time on earth. He did say somewhere, and I will paraphrase it because I am not quite sure of the exact quote: He said that He would prefer that people believed on Him just because of His status as the Messiah, the Son of God; but if they could not do that, He would that they believed on Him because of the works that He did among them (ie: healing and casting out of demons).

John the Baptist, while he was in prison, sent someone to ask Jesus to confirm that He was the Messiah. Jesus sent him back to John saying, 'The blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, and demons are being cast out; basically, here are these works, what do you think?' (my paraphrase again).

So it is quite clear to me that Jesus meant for Christian ministry to include effective and powerful instantaneous healing; and that all sick people who came to a Christian minister for healing would get healed.

So, what went wrong? And what is wrong today, because people are coming to Christian ministers for healing and they are not getting healed.

In my opinion, it is not a theological problem. The people who came to Jesus for healing didn't know too much about theology, and they didn't much care about whether the Scriptures told them that it was the will of God to heal them. They just came to Jesus and were healed. Quite simple really.

Also, it is not the fault of the sick people who needed healing. Jesus didn't seem to care about whether the people who came to Him had faith or not. He did not expect any positive confession from them. He had the power to heal and He did it in spite of what the sick people said. All they had to do was to come to Him and He healed them. Again, quite simple and straight forward.

So, the problem is that sick people are not always getting healed. Now, I am quite sure that if Jesus turned up at any of our churches and ministered, every sick person who came to Him would be totally and instantly healed, without all the humbug about having to give a positive confession or saying 'I am healed, I am healed', before anything happens.

I cannot imagine Jesus saying to anyone, "I am not going to heal you until you jump through the confessional and theological hoops, or join the word of faith movement, or leave the word of faith movement and join a 'real' Pentecostal church". Or whatever powerless preachers are saying to sick people today.

Can you imagine Jesus not healing anyone because they did not jump through the correct hoops? I can't.

So there is something fundamentally wrong with our churches, beliefs, or general approach to the whole thing. One of my mentors in the old days believed that people did not get healed because there was a deep abiding problem, a sort of cancer, in the body of Christ (the church) that was preventing healings from taking place. Once the problem was dealt with, the healing ministry would flow.

I don't know what it would be. Perhaps a type of hypocrisy, where preachers are saying one thing and living the opposite of what they are preaching. Perhaps it is because the church is such a fragmented organism, that the Lord cannot give preference to one group over another. Perhaps we need greater unity among our churches before the healing ministry can work.

Perhaps too many preachers are doing it for their own vain glory. Remember that the Lord said that He would not give His glory to another. Perhaps the motivations are all wrong, and that God can see what we cannot see.

Perhaps there is an unknown problem - one which has to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

Really folks, we could all bang on with post after post, dicussing around the same old mountains like Job's friends, and yet never coming to the point where we can really know why God is not healing people in our churches today in the way that happened in the ministry of Jesus.

My personal opinion is that many good God fearing people are sick because they have been cheated and let down by their churches, whose leaders are seeking personal ambition and vain glory, instead of seeking to be the men and women God wants them to be. The day is coming when the secrets of people's hearts are going to be brought out into the open, and then we will see what the problems are, and they will not really be a surprise to us. In fact, I reckon that we will be disgusted and annoyed at the supposed men and women 'of God' who should have been the models of God's will for our churches, but went around doing their own wills instead.

 

[JimB]

*****

So it is quite clear to me that Jesus meant for Christian ministry to include effective and powerful instantaneous healing; and that all sick people who came to a Christian minister for healing would get healed.
*****

Um, I think this sweeping statement needs a little scriptural support.

Sincerely,
~Sal Manila

 

[probinson]

I think the single greatest reason people are not healed today is because they expect failure. People have lost the attitude that the woman with the issue of blood had, where she said within herself, if I just touch the hem of Jesus' garment, I will be healed. Instead, the attitude today is, we'll pray and see if it works. The expectancy is gone. People say that God can heal, but in all reality, they don't believe that He will heal THEM. It's quite easy to say you believe in healing. It's quite another to say that God will heal me.

Prayer has become a roll of the dice. It's no longer an assurity in our heart of what God has already done for us. We've used phrases like "Healing is a provision, not a guarantee" to water down the Gospel. We've decided that we don't want to give people a "false hope" in telling them they can be healed because we've become so accustomed to failure. We pray without the authority bestowed upon us by Christ. We've allowed our past cirucmstances to kill the hope in us. We all have our stories where we prayed for "so-and-so" and they died, or "my Grandma, a great woman of faith prayed and was not healed". We would prefer to look at the examples of "great Christians", a subjective group of people, and how they were not healed rather than taking God's Word on the subject. Our parents, our siblings, our friends, all have their experiences of how it "didn't work" for them.

When we don't believe it's God's will to heal us, we resign ourselves to the fact that God can heal, but He won't heal me, instead of praying "help my unbelief". We tell people to "face reality", forgetting that God's Word and faith in His Word supercedes "reality". We become so cynical that when a real miraculous healing takes place, we think it's just a trick to get people's money. We begin to walk by sight and not by faith. We've overanalyzed scripture until it loses the beauty of simplicity. We've had friends, family, pastors, teachers, all talk us out of what we once believed with their "great knowledge. We become bitter because it "didn't work". We allow that root of bitterness to grow up and defile many. Because it "didn't work" for us, we don't want it to "work" for anyone else either.

All unintentionally.

What Oscarr said is quite true. When people came to Jesus, they heard that He could heal and they came expecting to be healed. They had a childlike faith. They didn't spend hours debating whether God wanted to heal them or not. They didn't think about "what happens if it doesn't work". They heard Jesus healed, they went to Him fully expecting to be healed. If they had doubts, they simply said "help my unbelief".

We've lost that childlike faith.

 

[Bobber]

But Pete, couldn’t a “messenger of Satan” (2 Cor. 12.7) be a “spirit of infirmity” (Luke 13.11)?

Sincerely,
~Justin Case

Well at least you're considering that very well possibly it might not be sickness .....I would suggest that's at least a step forward.....Sure Satan can attack with physical affliction but God stating his grace is suffiecent does not mean to say he had to keep it but rather use what ive give you by grace the Name Of Jesus, the blood of the lamb and the word of God to get rid of it....that is what God gave us by grace...Moses was crying out to God for deliverence at the Red Sea and God asked him as well why he was crying out....USE THE ROD!!! In other words use what ive given you, it is sufficent to get the job done. But again why gravitate towards the thorn even being sickness. It wasn't sickness in the way the term was used in the one other place in the Bible was it? Numbers 33:55 states the following that the people left in the land that they didn't drive out would be to them in the future like a thorn in their side....not sickness of disease at all.....

 

[probinson]

Um, I think this sweeping statement needs a little scriptural support.

This "sweeeping statement"?

So it is quite clear to me that Jesus meant for Christian ministry to include effective and powerful instantaneous healing; and that all sick people who came to a Christian minister for healing would get healed.

Mark 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

James 5:14-15
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Interestingly enough, James 5 is yet ANOTHER instance where healing and forgiveness of sins is quite closely related. It would seem that, at least according to the WORD, that "temporal" healing and "eternal" life are not near as separate as some on this forum would have you believe.

 

[Bobber]

So, again putting healing ahead of eternal life is the different kind of Gospel.

No one has ever suggested any such foolish thing here Jim...just a big question mark to me why you'd ever suggest such

 

[JimB]

This "sweeeping statement"?

Mark 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

James 5:14-15
14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Interestingly enough, James 5 is yet ANOTHER instance where healing and forgiveness of sins is quite closely related. It would seem that, at least according to the WORD, that "temporal" healing and "eternal" life are not near as separate as some on this forum would have you believe.

But, Pete, when will you admit that this doesn’t happen as perfectly as you want us to believe? Haven’t you (now be honest) ever laid your hands on a sick person and they simply did not recover? Have you ever prayed for a sick person who has died, despite your prayers? So, maybe you are interpreting the scipture wrongly. At the very least you are not balancing these verses out with others that qualify them.

Pete, Christians do not live by a single scripture (or selct scriptures) alone. No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. We compare spiritual things with spiritual. You guys seem to find the scriptures you like and ignore the ones you don’t like. You simply ignore (or seek to add some novel interpretation to) …

1 John 5.14
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. (NKJ)

We are certain that God will hear our prayers when we ask for what pleases him (CEV)

And we can be confident that he will listen to us whenever we ask him for anything in line with his will (NLT)

And this is the confidence (the assurance, the privilege of boldness) which we have in Him: [we are sure] that if we ask anything (make any request) according to His will (in agreement with His own plan), He listens to and hears us. (AMP)

​

Have you ever, since you have been a believer, ever once “asked amiss” and had your prayer denied by the Lord (James 4.3).

Anyhow, the verse you quote (Mark 16.15-18) does not even slightly indicate that EVERY prayer for the sick will be answered as requested nor does it say that EVERY person we lay hands on will be healed. It simply assures us that people (some, not all) will be healed if we do, in fact, follow His instructions to lay hands on the sick.

Sincerely,
~Beau Vine

 

[Christina M]

Ok...I think I got it now, at least I can see your point. I don't see the passage exactly the same way as you. you say it means :

"cope with this, I've given you all that you need to do so"

I would say it means "No, Paul this trial is good for you, it will keep you humble, and I've given you everything you need to cope with it"

I think it kinda of comes around to the same thing. Thanks for investing the time in your explanation to me.

John O.

I believe, with all my heart, the verse means:

"Paul, you have My grace. It sufficient for YOU to take authority over, to command, this messanger of satan to leave you alone! Use it, My son."


The Word says we have authority over the enemy... why would He tell Paul to "suck it up & endure" if He had already given Him power to trample the enemy?????





GOD IS GOOD!!!

 

[probinson]

But, Pete, when will you admit that this doesn’t happen as perfectly as you want us to believe? Haven’t you (now be honest) ever laid your hands on a sick person and they simply did not recover? Have you ever prayed for a sick person who has died, despite your prayers? So, maybe you are interpreting the scipture

Of course I've prayed for people and they were not healed. I've never personally prayed for someone who died despite my prayers.

The difference is, while I don't claim to have a full understanding of all of this, I choose to believe it, unequivocally. You would rather look at your failures and redefine scripture to fit your experiences. When it "doesn't work" for me, I don't go looking for scripture to justify what happened. I use it as a learning experience. It is not condemning for me to realize that I've missed it. I simply refuse to redefine scripture to fit my failures.

Pete, Christians do not live by a single scripture alone.

Correct. Neither do I. I can give you (and have given you) scads of scripture.

No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. We compare spiritual things with spiritual. You guys seem to find the scriptures you like and ignore the ones you don’t like. You simply ignore (or seek to add some novel interpretation to) …

"You guys" do the same thing. I swear, if someone else tells me about "the thorn" or Job I think I'll vomit.

I've explained, scripturally, why I believe what I do regarding the thorn and Job. These are the 2 things that are most hammered on from "you guys" and is a prime example of living by 1or 2 scriptures. I ain't buying your interpretation of those scripture. We see it completely different. But rather than making dishonest claims that we're "ignoring" or "adding" to scripture, some have just accepted that we don't see things the same way. You would rather post inflamatory remarks than accept that I don't, nor will I ever, see things the way you do

1 John 5.14
Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. (NKJ)

We are certain that God will hear our prayers when we ask for what pleases him (CEV)

And we can be confident that he will listen to us whenever we ask him for anything in line with his will (NLT)

And this is the confidence (the assurance, the privilege of boldness) which we have in Him: [we are sure] that if we ask anything (make any request) according to His will (in agreement with His own plan), He listens to and hears us. (AMP)
​

Have you ever, since you have been a believer, ever once “asked amiss” and had your prayer denied by the Lord (James 4.3).

Denied? No. I'm not confident that when I pray something and I "ask amiss" that God even hears me. Your scripture tells me that:

Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. (NKJ)
​

This verse says I can only be confident that He hears me IF I ASK ANYTHING ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. Have I asked for frivolous, foolish things that were not in His will. Sure. Did He hear me? I'm not too confident about that.

Anyhow, the verse you quote (Mark 16.15-18) does not even slightly indicate that EVERY prayer for the sick will be answered as requested nor does it say that EVERY person we lay hands on will be healed. It simply assures us that people (some, not all) will be healed if we do, in fact, follow His instructions to lay hands on the sick.

Where? Where does that say that in Mark 16:18? Or James 5:15? Where does it say "some, not all"? It is not there. You've added that:

Mark 16:18
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

It simply says "they will get well". There is no "some, but not all" in that scripture.

 

[TreeOfLife]

I believe, with all my heart, the verse means:

"Paul, you have My grace. It sufficient for YOU to take authority over, to command, this messanger of satan to leave you alone! Use it, My son."


The Word says we have authority over the enemy... why would He tell Paul to "suck it up & endure" if He had already given Him power to trample the enemy?????





GOD IS GOOD!!!

Amen! Compare it to when the five thousand needed something to eat and Jesus told the disciples "YOU give them something to eat". Scripture later says that they didn't understand because their "hearts were hardened".

 

[Bobber]

Haven’t you (now be honest) ever laid your hands on a sick person and they simply did not recover? Have you ever prayed for a sick person who has died, despite your prayers? So, maybe you are interpreting the scipture wrongly. At the very least you are not balancing these verses out with others that qualify them. [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

The truth of the matter is its not up to us or our place to try to figure out why a manifestation of healing never took place. I know this sounds glib but it is true none the less....it is up to that particular individual to seek God in prayer and find out if they're missing it somewhere and God will give the answer. I can give a list of reasons why healing doesn't come but never, ever should we engage in stating for an absolute this is the reason why this particualr individual never got healed...that is not our place....there can be times certain times where it is obvious...Kenneth Hagin relates one time someone asked him that question....Why didn't this person get healed or that one....to which he replied something like,

"I just don't know why this would be many times but sometimes an odd time it does become apparent"....To one minister who asked him this about one dear lady who was the best worker in his church, he said "Oh brother I thought you were going to ask me something hard. God couldn't heal that dear lady in your church, and I know sh'es a fine Christian and works for God, I understand that but I was standing right by next to her and I heard her pray, "Lord im the best Christian in this chruch...I do more work then all the other people put together" Well there's an example of someone trying to be healed by her own works good as they may be....That is not the basis by which people are healed

but you know alot of people looking at that woman would for sure use her as an example of a good Christian who never got healed. Well the truth of the matter is there are things that we just may not know...There are various reasons why a person is not healed but that's between as a usual thing them and God...but God will reveal the answers to the person who asks, if it involves them.....ask and you shall receive seek and you will find.

 

[Christina M]

Amen! Compare it to when the five thousand needed something to eat and Jesus told the disciples "YOU give them something to eat". Scripture later says that they didn't understand because their "hearts were hardened".

Good point......