healing and forgiveness

[Strong in Him]

But that's not what He said, in fact, He first informed the disciples
that their problem was lack of faith, certainly the disciples if ANYone,
had faith the SIZE of a mustard seed. But Jesus wasnt speaking
ONLY of size here.

Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

Now that's Jesus Speaking.
Jesus only Speaks what He hears from the Father.

Jesus knew how much faith they did, or didn't, have; just as he knows how much faith I have. I don't think the amount of faith has anything to do with healing. Like I said, a couple of people in the Gospels expressed doubts, but they were healed. Jairus' daughter didn't have any faith - she was dead; the man at the pool of Bethesda was asked if he wanted to get well, but couldn't even reply 'yes', far less express faith that Jesus could make him well; the man born blind wasn't asked if he wanted to get well, whether he had faith, or anything, yet he was still healed; the paralysed man who was let down through the roof was not asked if he wanted to be healed - his friends took him along to see Jesus, maybe at his request, maybe because they just decided it would be best for him. There is no record of Jesus having a conversation with him, never mind asking him how much faith he had.

Yet some people can go forward for prayer and anointing at a healing service, or ask for prayer from people who have a healing ministry, or pray to God for healing in Jesus' name - and all this being done in faith, and if God doesn't give them the physical healing they ask for, immediately they ask for it, they are "judged" by a few other Christians as not having enough faith. GOD gives healing, it is a gift from him. He may not give it immediately; 'wait' is just as much an answer to prayer as 'yes' is. He has the right to do this, yet somehow it is always the sick person who is told that the responsibility for being healed is theirs.

 

[stephen c]

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3 John 1:2

 

[Merlin]

He may not give it immediately; 'wait' is just as much an answer to prayer as 'yes' is.

His answer, or your assumption?

 

[Strong in Him]

His answer, or your assumption?

No, his answer. When I have prayed for healing on several occasions over several years, and each time received a verse, or word from Him along the lines of "persevere, wait, trust me", or we've sung a hymn on the same theme; or when I've gone forward for prayer at a healing service, not said why I'm asking for prayer, and the person praying for me has said the same thing - what should I conclude from that? That we've all got it all wrong? That God wants to heal immediately but none of us has "enough faith"? Or that he is asking me to to keep looking to him, and wait, in faith, for him to act ?

I don't know why some people are so against the idea that God may ask us to wait and trust him, but claim he has to immediately give us everything we ask for; or even everything he promises us. Have you read Hebrews 11 lately? How many people there were given promises but did not live to see them fulfilled? Abraham was promised a son; 10 years later he was given the promise again. Still it did not come to pass as quickly as he wanted, so he decided to take matters into his own hands - hence Hagar and Ishmael. Isaiah, Jeremiah and others prophesied the coming of the Messiah, they didn't live to see him though. The Psalmist tells us often to wait for the Lord - Psalm 37:7,34; 119:166; 130:5.
Simeon was told that he would not die until he had seen the Messiah - how long did he have to wait before Jesus was born? The disciples were told not to rush off to take the Gospel to "Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth" but to wait for the Holy Spirit. We have been told that Jesus is coming again. but we don't know when, so we wait.

Fathers who give their children everything they ask for the minute they ask for it, will one day find they have spoilt children on their hands. Have you never bneen told, or told your children (if you have any) to wait unitl Christmas/birthday/until you've saved up enough money? Or even "don't spoil your appetite, wait til lunchtime." We all have to learn to wait, and teach others also to wait and have patience; it's natural and an important fact of life. Yet when it comes to prayer for healing, apparently God isn't allowed to say "wait", he has to grant it immediately. And if the healing doesn't come immediately, it's the sufferer who is told "where is your faith?", "have you confessed all your sins?", "has somebody somewhere in your family been a devil worshipper, or whatever, because that will 'block' your healing". Why can't God be God?

 

[Strong in Him]

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3 John 1:2

So?

 

[stephen c]

Poor health is most often a result of disobedience. Notice I did not say always. But most often. God has His purposes.

We do know that about 97% of illness could be prevented by simple obedience to His instruction. This includes diabetes, heart disease, cancers, auto-immune disease, arthritis, etc.

 

[sunlover1]

Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

And faith will always pray "Thy will be done." God will grant us what we ask when we pray according to his will - which may not always be physical healing.

Yes, God will grant as we ask according to His Will.
but we must know what His will is first, and then ask
accordingly.
Not like basketball players who "throw up a prayer"
(and hope it sticks) That's not faith, that's wishful
thinking.
FAith is believing what God says, EVEN though people or
circumstances disagree.
He alone is sovereign and He said that it's the 'prayer of faith'
that SHALL save the sick.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49597051#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49597051#_ftnref1

Jesus knew how much faith they did, or didn't, have; just as he knows how much faith I have. I don't think the amount of faith has anything to do with healing.

But then that leaves us with the Scriptures that I posted that disagree
with this opinion. What do we do with those?
If you believe one thing, and Scripture says another..

That's why I have to believe God's Word, EVEN though it makes no
sense to me, even though it doesnt SEEM like He does.

Like I said, a couple of people in the Gospels expressed doubts, but they were healed. Jairus' daughter didn't have any faith - she was dead; the man at the pool of Bethesda was asked if he wanted to get well, but couldn't even reply 'yes', far less express faith that Jesus could make him well; the man born blind wasn't asked if he wanted to get well, whether he had faith, or anything, yet he was still healed; the paralysed man who was let down through the roof was not asked if he wanted to be healed - his friends took him along to see Jesus, maybe at his request, maybe because they just decided it would be best for him. There is no record of Jesus having a conversation with him, never mind asking him how much faith he had.

I didnt say that every situation is the same.
That every instance of lack of healing was an issue of unbelief.
All I am saying is that unbelief is VERY much A cause.
And another cause IS unforgiveness, (as the OP has tried to show youJ)
And another is sowing and reaping (a given) God will NOT be mocked;
as a man soweth that shall he also reap.
If you sow to the flesh and reap destruction, God will not be mocked at.
(Ha ha God, I sowed to the flesh, but you said you're the God that
healeth thee)

That woman had the issue of blood for 18 years. That's a LONG time
to be bleeding. The man at the pool, much longer IIRC..
In my church, we persevere. If someone needs healing, we pray
for them and if there is not immediate healing, we continue
to pray for them and continue to BELIEVE God's word that whatsoever
we ask in faith IF it be according to His Will, we shall have that which
we have asked.

Yet some people can go forward for prayer and anointing at a healing service, or ask for prayer from people who have a healing ministry, or pray to God for healing in Jesus' name - and all this being done in faith, and if God doesn't give them the physical healing they ask for, immediately they ask for it, they are "judged" by a few other Christians as not having enough faith.

IF it's due to lack of faith, GOD can let them know that,
they dont need man trying to figure out the WHY.

GOD gives healing, it is a gift from him. He may not give it immediately;

And maybe not the way we expect it to come.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, God will grant as we ask according to His Will.
but we must know what His will is first, and then ask
accordingly.
Not like basketball players who "throw up a prayer"
(and hope it sticks) That's not faith, that's wishful
thinking.
FAith is believing what God says, EVEN though people or
circumstances disagree.

Exactly. And when God asks me to go forward, or ask, for prayer yet again, telling me that today is the day he will heal me, then I hope I will obey, even if I'm depressed/shattered/in pain/sneezing a lot and tempted to think that it was not God who spoke. So far, that hasn't happened.

He alone is sovereign and He said that it's the 'prayer of faith'
that SHALL save the sick.

I AM saved.
I'm not physically well, or whole, but know that I will be one day, as there have been countless prayers of faith offered, both by me and on my behalf. It doesn't say that the person will immediately be healed. Just as Jesus did not say that we would instantly receive something when we asked in his name.

But then that leaves us with the Scriptures that I posted that disagree with this opinion.

No, they don't. Some Scriptures record occasions when sick people went to Jesus for healing, he granted it and said that it was their faith that had made them well. Scripture does not say that this is how it will always be in the future - that if you have faith you will immediately be physically healed, the first time you ask. If it did, it would be proved wrong, because there are, and have been, many Christians who pray for healing from their illness or condition, yet in some cases - Joni Eareckson-Tada - that disability remains, and in others - David Watson, John Wimber - they died from that illness. It sounds like a simple equation; if you pray in faith you are healed, therefore if you are not healed you haven't prayed in faith. But I don't think that's a correct conclusion to make.

I think it's possible that some people look at the healing miracles in the Gospels, conclude that what happened then is what is supposed to happen today, decide that God wants them to be physically well and claim "in faith" that this will happen when they pray; rather than taking the time to seek God and ask him what he is saying about this and how he wants them to pray about it. Jennifer Reees-Larcombe says in her book that when she became ill she had lots of prayer for healing. When she began to recover, she went to meetings and healing services in her wheelchair and sometimes asked for prayer; sometimes was wheeled forward by others before she could say anything. She was given "words from God" which said that she was trying too hard to get healing, she should just trust him; and "words from God" which said that she should press on, do more and claim that healing. (I put the phrase words fro God in inverted commas, not because I don't believe that God can speak to us, but because I wasn't there, I don't know which words were from him and which weren't, and in any case, he doesn't contradict himself.) She was making herself ill trying to live up to all these words and believe for healing. But when she recommitted herself to God, told him that she was his, that the issue, or timing, of her healing was his business, and let go of her desire for healing, then she found peace, and shortly afterwards God said that he wanted to heal her. He did; in a meeting where Jennifer was helping to lead and minister (so no one was ministering to her), through a young woman who had only been a Christian for a short while.
That whole incident spoke to me. Yes, we are asked to persevere in faith, but there may come a point where we have to stop trying to "achieve" our healing ourselves - through prayer, meetings - etc, and just let go and trust God. HE wants and deserves, ALL the glory for our healing; if it comes as a result of our having done certain things, then there is a danger that we might think that we have somehow deserved it or made it happen.

God is Sovereign, and if he says 'wait', or decides not to heal an illness gbut instead take the sick person to be with himelf, he must be allowed to do this without people asking to the sick person why they haven't been healed yet.

I didnt say that every situation is the same.

That every instance of lack of healing was an issue of unbelief.
All I am saying is that unbelief is VERY much A cause.

It may be a factor in someone praying for physical healing and not receiving it. There are others.

And another cause IS unforgiveness, (as the OP has tried to show youJ)

No, the OP has stated that 95% of chronic illnesses are caused by unforgiveness. I have never disputed that a condition may be caused by bitterness, or that witholding forgiveness from someone may prolong the healing or even make the condition work. I was questionning the assumption that if you have a chronic illness then it is likely to have been caused by unforgiveness, and the implication that therefore all you have to do to be healed is to forgive. That is a generalisation, and too simplistic. You were the one who said we should ask the Father for direction. Yes we should. HE can show us the reason for an illness (if there is one), and when, and how, we should pray for healing.

Some people are ill because of the choices they have made; an alcoholic, chainsmoker, junk food addict who hates exercise. Even then, God, in his mercy, can heal and give a second chance. But God does not punish everyone who sins by making them ill. He punished Jesus for our sins, not us.

 

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by Strong in Him

He didn't create us to heal.

​

Then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

 

[Melethiel]

Originally Posted by Strong in Him Then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

Those cover infections. How would antibodies, leukocytes, etc. help against chronic diseases like diabetes, cholecystitis, cancer, etc? Or against diseases like GCC's? Or against autoimmune disorders like allergies or MS where it's an overactive immune system that IS the problem?

It seems that according to your theory, those are all caused by unforgiveness, and if only the person would forgive, the immune system would heal the body. That's simply not the case.

 

[Strong in Him]

Originally Posted by Strong in Him

​

Then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

No of course I'm not, I don't know where you got that idea from.

The comment was made that we were created to heal. That suggested to me that the reason that God created human beings was to heal others. It was that which I disagreed with.
I realise now that the poster may not have been saying that; they may have meant that when God created us he gave the human body all the resources it needs to heal itself. If they did mean that, I apologise, but that was not at all clear from their post.

I didn't say anything about only Christians healing and atheists not being able to give or receive it.

By the way, your link doesn't work.

 

[Merlin]

It seems that according to your theory, those are all caused by unforgiveness, and if only the person would forgive, the immune system would heal the body. That's simply not the case.

The statement was
Originally Posted by Strong in Him

He didn't create us to heal.
​

and so i ask:
​

Then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

 

[Strong in Him]

The statement was
Originally Posted by Strong in Him

He didn't create us to heal.
​

and so i ask:

​

Then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

If that's addressed to me, then I'm afraid you can ask all you like, but I am not going to say any more until I know what you meant by that statement.

 

[Merlin]

If that's addressed to me, then I'm afraid you can ask all you like, but I am not going to say any more until I know what you meant by that statement.

it's simple.
the statement was made

He didn't create us to heal.

you can read the thread.
i've replied:

hen please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
Are you trying to say only a Christian can heal and only then by divine intervention?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

are you now running away from the statement?



Originally Posted by sk8Joyful

Yet, because He created us each to "heal",
​

He didn't create us to heal.

 

[Strong in Him]

it's simple.
the statement was made

you can read the thread.
i've replied:
[/color][/color]
are you now running away from the statement?

Sorry, but have you actually read my last post?

I have explained that I thought the statement "He created us to heal" meant that God created us in order to be healers - bring healing to other people. That is why I said "he did not create us to heal"; Adam and Eve were not created to heal a broken world, because it wasn't broken at that point.

IF the poster who wrote that statement actually meant that God created our bodies with the resources they need to heal themselves; that's different. It was NOT clear from their post that this might be what they meant, and they have not been back on the board to explain it.
My sentence made perfect sense in the light of what I thought the other person was saying.

I have already explained this once, plus the fact that I don't know what you mean when you talk about a Christian healing and an atheist dying if they catch a cold. I didn't say anything of the sort.

 

[Merlin]

Sorry, but have you actually read my last post?

I have explained that I thought the statement "He created us to heal" meant that God created us in order to be healers - bring healing to other people. That is why I said "he did not create us to heal"; Adam and Eve were not created to heal a broken world, because it wasn't broken at that point.

IF the poster who wrote that statement actually meant that God created our bodies with the resources they need to heal themselves; that's different. It was NOT clear from their post that this might be what they meant, and they have not been back on the board to explain it.
My sentence made perfect sense in the light of what I thought the other person was saying.

I have already explained this once, plus the fact that I don't know what you mean when you talk about a Christian healing and an atheist dying if they catch a cold. I didn't say anything of the sort.

thank you for clarifying.

i simply state that God designed our bodies to mend on their own,
but
emotions such as unforgiveness often interfere with that self-repair

cancer being one example of often not self-repairing
due to, for example, unforgiveness
interfering with the self-repair process.

 

[Strong in Him]

thank you for clarifying.

i simply state that God designed our bodies to mend on their own,
but
emotions such as unforgiveness often interfere with that self-repair

cancer being one example of often not self-repairing
due to, for example, unforgiveness
interfering with the self-repair process.

Ok, sorry.
It's true that we are fearully and wonderfully made. Very often the human body can heal on its own; blood clots after a wound, white blood cells fight infection and so on. Sometimes it can't, or something goes wrong and it needs extra help, like a tablet or a blood transfusion.

I don't personally know how much emotion plays a factor in blocking this; I suppose if a person were determined not to forgive but hang on to their bitterness to use as some kind of weapon, that could lead to physical problems. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it could cause cancer etc, not without some scientific study or paper which backed it up.

The main problem I had with the "95% of chronic illnesses are caused by unforgiveness" statement, is that if someone states in this thread that they have a chronic illness/condition, the implication is that there is a very strong likelihood that they need to forgive someone - and if you take that further, when they have forgiven, they will be healed. I do appreciate there may be more to it than just saying "sorry", but I still think it's far too simplistic.

People with chronic illnesses probably can become jealous of those without, angry that it should happen to them, bitter, etc - these are human emotions and I'd be surprised if some of them didn't feel one, or more, of these at times. That is still far from saying that a negative emotion caused the problem in the first place.

 

[sk8Joyful]

i simply state that God designed our bodies to mend on their own,
but
emotions such as unforgiveness often interfere with that self-repair

cancer being one example of often not self-repairing
due to, for example, unforgiveness
interfering with the self-repair process.

True.

 

[sunlover1]

Exactly. And when God asks me to go forward, or ask, for prayer yet again, telling me that today is the day he will heal me, then I hope I will obey, even if I'm depressed/shattered/in pain/sneezing a lot and tempted to think that it was not God who spoke. So far, that hasn't happened.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Are you ill SIH? If so, I'm sorry to hear it. Pain stinks.
You know, I am not condemning you or anyone else for sickness
or disease, or what have you. I HAVE pain and sickness myself.
But my only interest is in the study of what God says about it,
not how things seem.

I AM saved.
I'm not physically well, or whole, but know that I will be one day, as there have been countless prayers of faith offered, both by me and on my behalf. It doesn't say that the person will immediately be healed. Just as Jesus did not say that we would instantly receive something when we asked in his name.

No, Jesus did not say instantly or immediately.
I can think of an instance where a man had to go
down to the river and wash iirc.

No, they don't. Some Scriptures record occasions when sick people went to Jesus for healing, he granted it and said that it was their faith that had made them well.

Right, their faith made them well. Isnt that amazing?

I think it's very noteworthy that God would say such a thing.
And He also said on at least one occasion, that lack of faith
stopped Him from being ABLE to do any great things.
God was UNable to move because of what MORTALS
believed or didnt? Say WHAT?

Scripture does not say that this is how it will always be in the future - that if you have faith you will immediately be physically healed, the first time you ask. If it did, it would be proved wrong, because there are, and have been, many Christians who pray for healing from their illness or condition, yet in some cases - Joni Eareckson-Tada - that disability remains, and in others - David Watson, John Wimber - they died from that illness. It sounds like a simple equation; if you pray in faith you are healed, therefore if you are not healed you haven't prayed in faith. But I don't think that's a correct conclusion to make.

Neither do I, just as I explained earlier.

I think it's possible that some people look at the healing miracles in the Gospels, conclude that what happened then is what is supposed to happen today, decide that God wants them to be physically well and claim "in faith" that this will happen when they pray; rather than taking the time to seek God and ask him what he is saying about this and how he wants them to pray about it.

But He's already spoken it through His Word.
IF any be sick.
LET him call the elders...
the prayer of faith SHALL raise the sick... etc.

(as you suggested, it may or may not be 'now'.
Then again, to God everything is now, whether
yesterday or tomorrow)

Jennifer Reees-Larcombe says in her book that when she became ill she had lots of prayer for healing. When she began to recover, she went to meetings and healing services in her wheelchair and sometimes asked for prayer; sometimes was wheeled forward by others before she could say anything. She was given "words from God" which said that she was trying too hard to get healing, she should just trust him; and "words from God" which said that she should press on, do more and claim that healing. (I put the phrase words fro God in inverted commas, not because I don't believe that God can speak to us, but because I wasn't there, I don't know which words were from him and which weren't, and in any case, he doesn't contradict himself.)

No, he doesnt contradict Himself.
And while He does speak through others,
He can just as easily speak to us directly,
but many times (dunno bout you, but for me
anyhow) we are not quiet long enough to hear
Him , or if and when we DO hear Him, we
doubt ourselves , second guess ourselves etc.
We MUST be fully persuaded, no doubleminded
thinking allowed or we will receive NOTHING
from God.
Her story is full of double mindedness.

Yes, we are asked to persevere in faith, but there may come a point where we have to stop trying to "achieve" our healing ourselves - through prayer, meetings - etc, and just let go and trust God. HE wants and deserves, ALL the glory for our healing; if it comes as a result of our having done certain things, then there is a danger that we might think that we have somehow deserved it or made it happen.

So then God wasnt receiving the glory when He said to her,
"YOUR FAITH has made you well?
I'm certain that He received ALL of the glory.
But it was God, not me who said this.

God is Sovereign, and if he says 'wait', or decides not to heal an illness gbut instead take the sick person to be with himelf, he must be allowed to do this without people asking to the sick person why they haven't been healed yet.

His sovereignty is exactly what I'm defending.
What He says is what is right, not what we try to
reason out.
And no, people shouldnt have to be drilled about WHY
they havent manifested healing. That's just silly.
MERCY and encouragement is what we owe
every brother in Christ, whether it be overcoming sin,
whether they're in pain or sickness etc.

It may be a factor in someone praying for physical healing and not receiving it. There are others.

That's exactly what I said too.

No, the OP has stated that 95% of chronic illnesses are caused by unforgiveness.

Well, if someone did state such a thing,
obviously it's an opinion and nothing more.

You were the one who said we should ask the Father for direction. Yes we should. HE can show us the reason for an illness (if there is one), and when, and how, we should pray for healing.

Yes, we need to go to Him, because of the very things we're discussing.
Since we KNOW that He says to call for the elders and pray etc,
then we need to ask Him, as you said, how to pray etc.

Just as the disciples asked, WHY Lord could WE not do this?
God said, that type comes out only by prayer and fasting.
I believe that He's the same yesterday today and forever...

but that doesnt mean that Im free from MY maladies.
But have I gone to the Lord? Have I fasted? Have I prayed
in faith?
No, not really.

Am I saying that He wont work without my cooperation?
Not at all. I had stiffness and pain in my hips after the first five
babies (long time ago ).
Doc gave me medicine for arthritis... I didnt take it because it gave me
nightmares... anyhow... One day, BAM, i no longer had the arthritis .
I praised God for removing that pain, but I didnt recall ASKING Him to.

Some people are ill because of the choices they have made; an alcoholic, chainsmoker, junk food addict who hates exercise. Even then, God, in his mercy, can heal and give a second chance. But God does not punish everyone who sins by making them ill. He punished Jesus for our sins, not us.

I dont believe that he does either strong in Him.
If my son took his nice bike out and someone smashed it
with a hammer, I'd have mercy on him and get him a new one.
If my son took his nice bike out and smashed it with a h ammer
himself... I MIGHT have mercy on him and buy him a new one,
or I might let him save up some money ...
Which is more merciful?
IMO, I'm helping him more by letting him save the money.
it's not a 'punishment' but rather a method of teaching...

sunlover

 

[stephen c]

Amen, sunlover.

God has given His eight laws of health. If we ignore them, we are abusing our bodies, His temple. Of course there are repercussions, consequences, for disobedience. And ignoring what He has taught us is disobedience.

Sunshine, Temperance, Air, Rest, Trust in God, Nutrition, Exercise, and Water.