healing and forgiveness

[Merlin]

That doesn't make sense. If that were the case then why can't we change the colour of our eyes or skin? And why can't Down's kids have gene therapy so that their Down's is cured?

we can change eye colour.
it's just that most people don't know how.

 

[Merlin]

If you'll read my previous posts, I acknowledge that there is more to a human than simply a molecular machine, and that mental/spiritual states DO have an affect on health. This is something readily recognized in the medical profession.

However, that doesn't change the fact that immune responses don't do much to our DNA, and when they do, the body also has mechanisms to fix the DNA.

More precisely, it's gene expression
each of our genes may be turned on, turned off, or altered slightly in expression by thousands of minute amounts.

When these mechanisms fail, it's called "cancer."

no, cancer is a defect of cell out-of-control growth

 

[Merlin]

Yes, I suffer from a chronic illness because I wasn't able to forgive someone in the fourth grade, and I go through daily pain and exhaustion and will eventually end up in a wheelchair because I have been unable to do so.

I'm truly sorry to hear that

Can you even imagine how insulting this is? Can you possibly imagine what this means?

insulted by truth.
how sad.

Why is prejudice against the diseased so accepted in America?

no prejudice, a desire to help people heal

 

[Melethiel]

no, cancer is a defect of cell out-of-control growth

*sigh* I was being overly simplistic (I figured one simplistic post deserved another.) This out of control growth is often caused by a defect in DNA expression due to the failure of DNA-repair mechanisms (ie., the p53 gene).

 

[Strong in Him]

insulted by truth.
how sad.

That's the trouble - it's only truth as you see it.

 

[Merlin]

Maybe it's not my place to say, but this sounds quite condescending to me. Almost as though you see healing by conventional medicine as "second rate", but are prepared to tolerate it; but believe that the only real way to heal is by following your methods/reading some of the books that you promote, and doctors won't be really efficient healers unless they practice these things too.
Far be it for me to put words in your mouth, but that's what I felt when I read it, and I think if I were a med student too, I'd find it quite insulting.


I believe that most, if not all, healing comes from God. (I say most, because some people believe that the devil is also able to heal, and does so to make people believe in him - but that's a seperate debate.) I believe that God can intervene and miraculously remove an illness after prayer and the laying on of hands. I believe that during these times he can reveal to a person that a particular sin or attitude is unhealthy, making them ill and they need to repent of it. It may be the case that a physical illness is healed after this, and the sufferer and healer both conclude that it was the confession of sin that released the healing. This could be the case, but I don't think it is right to conclude that it always is.

But God also - I would say usually - heals through doctors and conventional medicine. I've come across Christians who seem to believe that somehow going to a doctor is second best and not really what God wants, but if you domn't have the faith to believe that God can heal, then it's ok. Nonsense. God gives doctors, surgeons, physiotherapists, nurses and so on the skill, wisdom and compassion to do what they do. Some Christians choose to train as doctors, some doctors become Christians. I don't think there is any conflict of interest at all. Miraculous healing is not more important, or more spiritual, than healing through medicine.

As for alternative medicine, even some of that is good and may be from God and used by him. Personally I am more wary of it, and there are people who've said that God has told them not to have anything to do with it. That's also another debate.

But the point I've been trying to make throuhout this thread, is that I disagree with the view that "95% of chronic illness is caused by an inability to forgive." I think that's far too simplistic and have seen no evidence - from science or the Bible - that backs up such a claim.

Doctors cannot heal anything!
Doctors may immobilize a broken bone, but it is from ourselves that the bone heals.
A gift of design by our Lord.
A doctor may cut-out something, poison (anti-biotic) or similar, but then we must be left with the inherent healing processes given to us by God.
Emotions of various kinds often block that healing.
Primarily among these are guilt (unforgiveness of self), and many other negative emotions.
addressing such sub-conscious negative emotions are a key to healing. Even such as Cancer, diabetes, etc.

 

[Merlin]

Hm, so I suppose you want to get into theology then. Yes, of course I accept that all healing and life ultimately comes from God. I also believe that God usually (note: not always - I DO accept the reality of miraculous healing) works through material means (and if you want me to defend this statement Scripturally, I will do so). In most cases, this is medical science.

Please, name just one thing medical science actually heals.
Not reducing symptoms, Not the inherent body healing functions, but actually medical science heals.

 

[Merlin]

Yes, we know that stress, anxiety, etc contribute to chronic ailments. (Note: I said "contribute", not "cause".)

actually, they can cause.

A lot of these things are called "triggers" - somebody may be genetically predisposed to diabetes, say, but never develop it until something stressful triggers it.

the gene is either good or bad. not inbetween. If it were bad, you'd be diabetic at birth, not later in life.
what happens is the gene expression is altered.
the altering is by the subconscious mind.
Unforgiveness, often of self, being a primary contributor.

 

[Strong in Him]

Doctors cannot heal anything!

Doctors are healers - they are in the healing profession just as much as you may be. They use their knowledge and skilled medical training to diagnose an illness/condition and decide on the best drug, or course of treatment to cure it.

Doctors may immobilize a broken bone, but it is from ourselves that the bone heals.
A gift of design by our Lord.

Yes, and he has used the skill of the doctors to diagnose the broken bone in the first place.

A doctor may cut-out something, poison (anti-biotic) or similar, but then we must be left with the inherent healing processes given to us by God.

My understanding is that a doctor prescribes an antibiotic which kills the infection. A chest infection, bronchitis or whatever that goes untreated can be dangerous. And some cancers can be treated if they are caught early enough; if they are ignored in the hope that the body will heal itself, the person may well die.
Sometimes the body's "inherent healing process" doesn't work or goes wrong. There are auto-immune conditions, which means that the body's immune system begins attacking itself.
Doctors do not manufacture, or create, illnesses in perfectly healthy people so as to keep themselves in work, or get paid for treating them. You may have had that experience, and I'm sorry if you have, but it doesn't happen like that - at least, if it did it would probably result in the doctor being struck off.

Emotions of various kinds often block that healing.

Sometime, possibly. But I have read accounts of cancer sufferers who have been wonderfully positive, forgiving people who have prayed for healing and believed that God would give it. Their bodies have sometimes still succumbed to the cancer, but they have also left a marvellous testimony to the power of God who gives them the strength to cope with illness. I'm thinking particularly of David Watson, who had prayer from hundreds of people and reached many hundreds of others with the preaching and interviews he gave, and the book he wrote during his illness. His body finally died, as everyone's will one day, however positive their emotions. But he is 100% whole now, in heaven.

Primarily among these are guilt (unforgiveness of self), and many other negative emotions.
addressing such sub-conscious negative emotions are a key to healing. Even such as Cancer, diabetes, etc.

Yes, being healed, forgiven and set free from these things are essential if we are to have wholeness and a healthy relationship with God, ourselves and others. But there is no guarantee that a cancer sufferer who becomes a Christian, who is forgiven, set free, and filled with the Holy Spirit will be physically delivered from their illness too. There is no proof that a diabetics' condition is only because of the state of his soul/emotions.

 

[Merlin]

Doctors are healers - they are in the healing profession just as much as you may be. They use their knowledge and skilled medical training to diagnose an illness/condition and decide on the best drug, or course of treatment to cure it.

They don't cure us. our own mind/body does that.

Yes, and he has used the skill of the doctors to diagnose the broken bone in the first place.

the operative word being diagnose, not heal

My understanding is that a doctor prescribes an antibiotic which kills the infection.

poison, as i said.
The antibiotic kills, then the mind/body team heals

A chest infection, bronchitis or whatever that goes untreated can be dangerous. And some cancers can be treated if they are caught early enough; if they are ignored in the hope that the body will heal itself, the person may well die.[/quote]

yes, the cancer is burned, cut out, or poisoned.
then the person is left to heal

Sometimes the body's "inherent healing process" doesn't work or goes wrong.

yes, but why?

There are auto-immune conditions, which means that the body's immune system begins attacking itself.

yes, but why?

...I have read accounts of cancer sufferers who have been wonderfully positive, forgiving people who have prayed for healing and believed that God would give it. Their bodies have sometimes still succumbed to the cancer,

yes, but why?
it's often a deep, unconscious issue, like a phobia. simple, conscious choices, like 'i'm not afraid', or 'i forgive' often doesn't resolve the issue.

but they have also left a marvellous testimony to the power of God who gives them the strength to cope with illness. I'm thinking particularly of David Watson, who had prayer from hundreds of people and reached many hundreds of others with the preaching and interviews he gave, and the book he wrote during his illness. His body finally died, as everyone's will one day, however positive their emotions. But he is 100% whole now, in heaven.

but how much better to heal?

Yes, being healed, forgiven and set free from these things are essential if we are to have wholeness and a healthy relationship with God, ourselves and others. But there is no guarantee that a cancer sufferer who becomes a Christian, who is forgiven, set free, and filled with the Holy Spirit will be physically delivered from their illness too.

becoming a christian is about salvation of sin, not healing of disease

There is no proof that a diabetics' condition is only because of the state of his soul/emotions.

i never said only

 

[Melethiel]

I notice a lack of Scriptural support for this idea, which sounds quite un-Christian. On the other hand, we have plenty of Scripture like:

1As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. - John 9:1-3

7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:7-9

They don't cure us. our own mind/body does that.

I thought that it was God who heals.

 

[Strong in Him]

but how much better to heal?

How much better??? I say that a Christian evangelist is with the Lord, in heaven, 100% whole, 24/7, and you say how much better would it have been for his body to be temporally healed so that he could remain on earth for a few years longer? If you think that "should" have happened, you'll have to take that up with the Lord himself. I do know that a radio interview David gave during his illness was listened to by hundreds, maybe thousands, of people, some of whom were helped, challenged or became Christians because of it.

There is more to life than physical healing. The Lord could have healed David easily, at any point when he was being prayed for and anointed by other Christians. He didn't, for a reason. The fact that David died of cancer was not a failure and it was not due to anything he had, or hadn't, done - eg confessed his sins.

 

[Merlin]

I notice a lack of Scriptural support for this idea, which sounds quite un-Christian. On the other hand, we have plenty of Scripture like:

1As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. - John 9:1-3

contextually, we have
this man
sin
neither are being discussed.

7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:7-9

thorn=chronic disease?
not

 

[Merlin]

I thought that it was God who heals.

yes, by design

 

[Merlin]

How much better??? I say that a Christian evangelist is with the Lord, in heaven, 100% whole, 24/7, and you say how much better would it have been for his body to be temporally healed so that he could remain on earth for a few years longer?

yup.
i think healing better glorifies the lord

There is more to life than physical healing. The Lord could have healed David easily, at any point when he was being prayed for and anointed by other Christians. He didn't, for a reason. The fact that David died of cancer was not a failure nd it was not due to anything he had, or hadn't, done - eg confessed his sins.

the lord did heal him
isa 53.5 and by his wounds we are healed.

 

[Strong in Him]

contextually, we have
this man
sin
neither are being discussed.

It's the same principle. The disciples were asking Jesus who had sinned that the man should have been blind from birth, him, or his parents? In those days they believed that the presence of illness in someone's life was due to sin, or proof that the person had sinned. This man had been born blind, therefore whose "fault" was it? Jesus said that the man's blindness was not caused by sin.

You seem to be saying that an illness is a result of negative emotions, unforgiveness, guilt or whatever. Take these away and healing will come; same principle.

.thorn=chronic disease?
not

Really? You know for a fact that Paul's thorn was not a physical illness? Interesting, because the commentries I've read on this passage say the oppposite. Where did you read that it is absolutely certain that Paul's thorn was not a physical ailment?

 

[Catherineanne]

7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:7-9

If Paul only asked three times, he had a lot more self control and acceptance of God's will than I have. I have asked countless times, railed against God, begged him, pleaded with him, cried before him, but still I am unwell. This does not mean that he has turned his back, and that my condition is a kind of punishment; that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what ill health is, to us and to God. He does not rescue us from the Valley of the Shadow, he walks beside us. We pass through the fire to be refined by it.

Or I think of my good friend B, who has had two major heart operations, and is living with an ongoing heart condition. How dare anyone suggest that this is because her Christian faith is not adequate, or her forgiveness of others incomplete?

This kind of thinking is so crass it is absolutely beyond belief.

 

[Catherineanne]

There is more to life than physical healing. The Lord could have healed David easily, at any point when he was being prayed for and anointed by other Christians. He didn't, for a reason. The fact that David died of cancer was not a failure and it was not due to anything he had, or hadn't, done - eg confessed his sins.

I agree with all of this, and would only add that David is now fully healed and standing before the Lord. To see death as a failure is to miss the final, and most important, chapter of our lives.

None of us will ever achieve perfect healing on earth; it can only come in eternity.

 

[Catherineanne]

isa 53.5 and by his wounds we are healed.

Do you interpret this as physical healing, M?

Why?

 

[Strong in Him]

I thought that it was God who heals.

yup.
i think healing better glorifies the lord.

You think healing better glorifies the Lord - what does he think?
Is he glorified by someone who's praising him because he has just performed a miracle for them and they are free from their illness and telling others about him? Yes, undoubtedly.
Is he glorified by someone who remains physicaly ill/disabled, but is still a Christian, continues to praise, worship and serve him and who, when asked "how do you manage to do all that you do?" replies that it is GOD who gives them strength, joy, peace and so on? Yes, I'd say so. People have asked me that very thing, and sometimes asked how I can have faith when I have not been physically healed. This gives me a chance to give my testimony and talk about God. And I believe it helps other who are ill and praying for healing to believe that God hasn't finished with them, or that they are not too sick to be used by him.
Which glorifies God the more? You ask him.

the lord did heal him
isa 53.5 and by his wounds we are healed.

So one minute you're saying that some cancers and other illnesses are caused by unforgiveness and negative emotions and that if these are removed the body will heal itself, and the next, you are saying that God had healed him.
In the Gospels, when Jesus healed someone, he took their symptoms away. People knew that a man had been healed from leprosy because they could see that he no longer had the symptoms. Paralysed people walked, blind men had their sight restored, deafr people could hear again. They, and everyone around them, knew they were physically well because their illness had gone. So to say that a person who has cancer, is in pain and whose toumour is visibly getting bigger that they are healed - is ridiculous. David watson was not physically healed of cancer in this life, or he'd probably still be here today. That is not to say that he was not made whole in every other way.