healing and forgiveness

[sunlover1]

Or else like He suggested in His Word, by faith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray,
believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Maybe it's not her who's missing the point.
She seems to be in agreement with Jesus:

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing.
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name,
he will give it you.


10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed,
Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel...


13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this?
They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying,
According to your faith be it unto you

Indeed not. You also are missing the point.

God help you also, therefore, if you ever fall ill.

When man's opinion conflicts with God's Word, I must choose to believe God:


14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49626943#_ftn1
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[Catherineanne]

When man's opinion conflicts with God's Word, I must choose to believe God:

That would certainly make a nice change.

John 9: 1-3

As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him."

 

[sunlover1]

That would certainly make a nice change.

John 9: 1-3

As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him."

I have never said that sin is the only reason for illness.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good toh the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. ​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49628303#_ftn2

 

[Merlin]

No I do not believe God wants me sick.

if you are currently sick, and believe God says wait, isn't that saying He wants you sick?

But I have already written an account of going to healing services and receiving a Bible verse, or word from God about perservering.

isn't that staying sick?

I, and others, have asked many times, in faith, with thanksgiving and expectation that he will answer our prayers, that he would make me well. Yet I am still not physically healed.

He has answered your prayers.

SOME Christians' answer to that is along the lines of "well it's not God's fault you're not healed, therefore it must be yours", and produce a list of things I should do in order to be healed. My response is that I know that we have prayed about this, God knows we have prayed about this. He is my Lord; to say "God, I want to be healed and I expect you to give it to me now, this minute", is not submitting to his Lordship. And whatever I want, I'm not going to ask that God blesses MY ideas and MY plans - been there, done that.

If you want to interpret this as me wanting to be ill, if you want to gloss over, or ignore, the testimony I have given about God helping me IN illness, and say that he can only be glorified if that illness is taken away; go ahead. God knows what glorifies him and he is not going to let sickness (which is from the devil) remain in someone's life if it only dishonours him.

sure He will.
He will not force you.

He is quite able to heal me at any point.

yes and He did His part.

 

[Merlin]

You said yourself he takes ten days to heal your cold.

Does this not equate to 'wait ten days'?

if i remained sick for 9 days, then healed on the 10th day then yes.

 

[Merlin]

That would certainly make a nice change.

John 9: 1-3

As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him."

and so the lord left him blind that the father might be glorified in how the blindness was lived with?

 

[Merlin]

and if a cure is announced in the next issue of the lancet or JAMA has His will changed?
is his will found in the pages of JAMA or will it still be His will that you wait?

 

[Strong in Him]

Great! this is another way of saying "GOD wants! me well"

Well no, it's not.
God didn't want me to get sick because this was a good and perfect gift from him to me. He did not plan that I would become ill, and disabled too. Sickness happens because we live in a fallen world. Sickness is from the devil, who wants to destroy the relationship we have with God. He might try to do this by destroying our physical health - giving us so much pain that we "curse God and die", as Job was tempted to do. The devil hates God and will do anything - fear, pain, sickness, bitterness etc - to try to win back those who have given their lives to him.
So God doesn't want sickness in the world. Does he allow it? Yes clearly, otherwise he'd heal all his precious children immediately. I'm not sure why he allows it - though Scripture does talk about God discipling his children, or testing their faith, just as gold is tested by fire to have the impurities removed.
God is a brilliant recycler; anything that the devil sends our way with the intention of destroying us, God can use for good with the intention of refining us and making us more like Jesus. As we can see in the story of Job, God has greater power than Satan. The devil cannot touch us without God knowing about it, and even then his powers are limited.

So, while I don't believe that God said, "I desire pain, restricted mobility and illness for Gill," because to desire pain and suffering for someone, you'd have to be cruel and sadistic, and God is love, nevertheless he has a purpose in allowing it to remain in my life for the moment. He must have - I am a Christian, he is my Lord, I want to know him, do his will and give my life to him. He knows that. And he wants me to serve and glorify him even more than I do. And as he is the only one who can heal me, it follows that if I want to be well and he wants me to be well, then he'd do something about it.

Still the ball's in your own court, waiting...

The ball is not in my court; I pray and have faith, God is the one who heals.

So how *differently* now are you going to play... your part

See above. When a person gives themselves to God, they give themselves to God. So as I belong to him, I am not going to start telling him how he should treat me, where he should send me, or what he should be doing in my life. He is the potter, I am the clay. I will talk to him about my desires, the gifts I believe I have, the ways I would like to serve him and so on, but he is Lord. Scripture constantly tells us to commit our ways to the Lord (Psalm 37:5), delight ourselves in the Lord (Psalm 37:4), wait for the Lord's deliverance (Proverbs 2:22), submit ourselves to he Lord (James 4:7). As the late David Watson used to say, "if he is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all."

Thru that, most Christians make themselves suffer; and I've had a few come to me, giving much the same account. -
Know?
what I told them: "Ever heard the definition of Insanity?
That amounts to doing the same thing, repeatedly over & over, ad nauseum,
year in & year out, while expecting a different outcome" -
iow,
IF what you are doing, is not getting you the success you want,
then do something different!

I've highlited part of your answer.
You are saying that praying in faith, asking others to pray - intercede to God - and going to services of healing to receive his touch and an anointing, is ineffective, not good enough, because it's not getting me what I want. So what do you believe prayer is? Talking to God because you want something and if he doesn't give it, then you'll have a hissy fit and go off and try something that will bring you healing? That's not what it is for me; as I have already said, he is my Lord. I pray to him, leave my desires with him and trust that he will grant them in his own time. In the meantime, I get on with the business of loving, serving and getting to know him.

You still don't get it? - Lord, have mercy!

No, you don't get it. You're not in my position so it doesn't surprise me at all that you can't understand what I am saying.

Look, it's very simple, just like Merlin earlier said:
"When Jesus said Isaiah 53.5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." <-- What, about past-tense, is there not to understand? - GOD has finished His work amongst us.
It's all done; fini:
1. our soul's salvation, plus
2. our mind's joyfulness, as well as
3. our body's healthfulness. -

1. If you read Isaiah 53, it is clear that he is talking about someone dying for our sins, being crushed for our iniquities and transgressions. That the punishment for our sin fell on him. This has been done; Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished."

2.. It's not about not understanding the past tense, it's that I do not agree (and I'm not the only one) that this refers to our physical healing. It doesn't say so. There are many, many Scriptures that say what Christ has done for us, and what we now have because of his death: peace with God, (Rom 5:1); reconciliation, (2 Cor 5:18); every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3); we are his children and heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:15-17); nothing can seperate us from God's love (Rom 8:38,39), to name but a few. Scripture even says that Jesus was made sin for us so that we would become righteous (2 Cor 5:21).
Where does it say that Christ died so that we would never be sick again? Or the he was made cancer for us? Or anything else?

Now, you can sit here, & recite scriptures (o/o context no less) one after another;
but the fact remains, sister, that after all is said & done, you continue ... sick.

So I'm assuming that you attribute your good health directly to your beliefs/actions and nothing else? You have discovered a verse which appears to say that God wants us physically well (and don't talk to me about taking things out of context); because you have decided to believe it, and no doubt repeat it often to God, and because he has given you the blessing of good physical health, you are assuming that one is as a result of the other? Good health is presumably your reward for "getting it right", whereas my continued ill health is no doubt as a result of "getting it wrong" - as if going for prayer and annointing can ever be a negative thing.

As Catherineanne has said, God help you if you ever get ill and find that your little theory doesn't work. (And many have become so disillusioned by these kinds of belief that they've left the church/God altogether.)

what sort of a poor example to GOD's glory, is that?

You know nothing about how God is glorified in my life, so don't you dare judge - or laugh.

ALL you've been doing, and continue so to this day...
is shirking your own respons-ability to heal <-- this is the crux, you are not facing up to.

Rubbish! Healing is from God and God alone. HE is the one who heals me; he has healed me of several things already (which immediately scuppers your little theory) and he is continuing to work in me to heal, convict of sin and change me into Jesus' likeness.

Saying that GOD is incapable because I have not done "my bit" is a) insulting to God because you are saying that he cannot do all things, b) unscriptural c) judgemental.
It is not for me to EARN my own healing - none of us can do that.

And neither GOD, nor Merlin, nor anyone such of us will force you. You Intend staying "sick"; so be it. Bingo! Wish granted! -

That's also judgemental because you're saying that my thoughts on, and attitude towards, healing is not the same as yours so therefore I must be wrong.

Next? - Yup, this is your Golden-moment/opportunity to shine! Why? -
so you can join the swelling throng... of previous healers,
in Halleluiah-choruses, of "PRAISE God, amen, Amen, AMEN, & forevermore !"

Nonsense. I can praise God even though I haven't been healed. He is love, he is good, he is perfect, he is my Saviour who, in his grace, gave me what I most certainly did not deserve - a relationship with him, my Father. He is worthy of all praise because he is perfect and ALL his ways are just.

"My opportunity to shine" - why? Because if I have the right beliefs and positive mindset I will be "doing my bit" and therefore God will heal me? And because I'm not glorifying him unless I do this and earn my healing?
No thanks. I love God and praise him while I am ill; I will continue to love and praise him when I am well.

Like I say, you're not in my position and I expect all of this is alien to you. If you believe that good health proves correct theology - go ahead. And if it is true that you are more concerned with a healthy body that doing God's will; I feel sorry for you.

 

[Strong in Him]

yes and He did His part.

If healing is a two way event, if God has "done his bit" and is waiting for me to do mine, don't you think he'd tell me what it is?

Furthermore, there were some people in the Gospels who did not do anthing to be healed - they just were. They had faith, and their faith took them to Jesus (though they didn't know who he was) to express their needs (though they didn't ALL believe he could or would meet them.)

My faith takes me to Jesus, in prayer, and waits for his answer.

 

[Strong in Him]

God has given His eight laws of health. If we ignore them, we are abusing our bodies, His temple. Of course there are repercussions, consequences, for disobedience. And ignoring what He has taught us is disobedience.

Sunshine, Temperance, Air, Rest, Trust in God, Nutrition, Exercise, and Water.

It is doubtless true that if we fill our bodies with junk food and poison (alcohol, drugs and cigarettes), we shouldn't be surprised if we become ill. Everything has consequences.

But it is too simplistic to imply that if we observe these "8 laws of health", we will never become ill. Everything in moderation.
Too much sunlight can cause sunburn and lead to cancer.
Red wine is good for you - in moderation, and drinking is not a sin anyway.
Too much exercise can be bad for you - and some disabled people can't exercise anyway.
Too much water can kill you.

 

[Melethiel]

I've seen and heard a lot of very sobering things in just the short time I've been in school, but it is this thread which truly makes me sick. I completely echo Strong In Him's and Catherineanne's statements and sentiments above.

(And this coming from someone who fully recognizes that the mind and body are very much intertwined, and that mental states can cause physical illness. In fact, I had a lecture on that very subject today, and will have many more [despite assertions that "doctors are trained to see people as nothing more than biomachines - a statement which is quite absurd - anyone want to see the list of lectures I've sat through the last couple days?].)

 

[sunlover1]

and so the lord left him blind that the father might be glorified in how the blindness was lived with?

Jesus healed the blind man.
(Apparantly, the blind man was minding his own
business and Jesus just started rubbing clay
on his eyes)

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents:
but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle,
and he anointed&#65279;a&#65279; the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam,
(which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore,
and washed, and came seeing. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49631342#_ftn2



http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49631342#_ftnref2

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus healed the blind man.
(Apparantly, the blind man was minding his own
business and Jesus just started rubbing clay
on his eyes)

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents:
but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle,
and he anointed&#65279;a&#65279; the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam,
(which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore,
and washed, and came seeing.

This is what I mean; this is one place in Scripture where Jesus didn't even ask the man if he wanted healing, never mind how much faith he had.

 

[sk8Joyful]

After one member in this thread, continues severely mocking others, saying "I like it, it's GREAT fun"
I removed my own *beautiful-healing* story, re how I came to Iceskating...
which all others who know this, felt inspired by.

Positively-inspiring, & guiding yet other people towards their own Healings...
so together, we may PRAISE GOD for ALL blessings he so richly has bestowed upon each of us... is, along with serving GOD as a missionary, my deepest JOY... Amen

 

[Strong in Him]

None of this actually addresses my previous post.

I know that God sometimes heals miraculously. I also know that sometimes his healing is through the medical profession and sometimes our bodies just need time and space to heal themselves. We are fearfully and wonderfully made; there are systems in place in our body which let it heal itself - like white blood cells fighting infection, and blood clotting and so on. I won't go into any medical details because I don't know too much.

I'm not really too clear about your position here; one minute you seem to be implying that all healing is natural - that we were made with bodies which have the ability to overcome illness competely on their own, the next you're quoting Scriptures and emphasising that we can have great physical health because that was why Jesus died. It doesn't make sense to say that Jesus died to achieve something which we all can do for ourselves anway (i.e physical healing.) You might as well say that Jesus died for our sins on the cross but we still have to earn our place in heaven. Both positions actually render Jesus' death ineffectual.

Unless you are saying that Jesus' death was for people like me whose bodies don't appear to be healing themselves, but the rest of you don't need it.

It would be good if you could a) respond to some of the things I wrote in my last post and b) explain what kind of healing ministry you have, what you teach people and where you believe God comes into it.

You don't have to - it's just that it might help me to understand your posts better.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have never said that sin is the only reason for illness.

True. Only 95% of chronic ill health.

Nice going.

 

[Catherineanne]

if you are currently sick, and believe God says wait, isn't that saying He wants you sick

No. It is saying God wants us to learn to rely on him completely, and to learn patience.

[Staff Edit]

 

[Catherineanne]

if i remained sick for 9 days, then healed on the 10th day then yes.

So does that mean God wanted you sick 9 days?

What kind of God are you describing? He sounds like a sadist.

 

[Catherineanne]

and so the lord left him blind that the father might be glorified in how the blindness was lived with?

The Lord worked God's will.

Sometimes God's will is physical healing. Sometimes he has other priorities. Always he chooses, and always he chooses what is right for us, and most loving towards us. Even if it means his own Son dying on a cross, he always chooses what is right.

 

[Catherineanne]

You are saying that praying in faith, asking others to pray - intercede to God - and going to services of healing to receive his touch and an anointing, is ineffective, not good enough, because it's not getting me what I want. So what do you believe prayer is? Talking to God because you want something and if he doesn't give it, then you'll have a hissy fit and go off and try something that will bring you healing? That's not what it is for me; as I have already said, he is my Lord. I pray to him, leave my desires with him and trust that he will grant them in his own time. In the meantime, I get on with the business of loving, serving and getting to know him.

This is correct. Prayer is about us lining our will up with the will of God, not the other way round.

Anyone who thinks they can coerce God into doing what he does not want to do is wasting their time. It is God who decides, and it is God who heals, in his own time and in his own way.

There is not one single one of us who will be fully healed until the day we stand face to face with Our Lord in eternity. Anyone who thinks that just because they don't have a disability, they are somehow spiritually superior, and have greater faith than those who do, is in for a rude awakening. I would not exchange places with such people, even in return for good health, money, security etc.

It is no profit to a man to gain the whole world, if in doing so he loses his soul.