healing and forgiveness

[Melethiel]

contextually, we have
this man
sin
neither are being discussed.

thorn=chronic disease?
not

Yes, we are discussing sin.
You are saying that disease is caused by unforgiveness.
Unforgiveness, in the context we are discussing, is a sin.

 

[Strong in Him]

yes, by design

So where are you actually coming from on this? What is your belief about healing and the healing ministry? Because one minute it sounds as though you're saying that we don't need doctors, the human body has everything it needs to be able to heal itself, the only things stopping it are negative emotions and that if these were put right, even hereditary illnesses would be cured, which all sounds rather mystical to me, even humanistic - we can heal ourselves.
And the next you're quoting a part of a Scripture which you say tells us we are already physically healed by Jesus' death on the cross.

So which is it? That God has designed the human body to heal itself, which it will do in the absence of negative emoptions and interference by doctors, or that all our physical illnesses were taken by Jesus on the cross and we are healed by his death?

 

[Strong in Him]

If Paul only asked three times, he had a lot more self control and acceptance of God's will than I have. I have asked countless times, railed against God, begged him, pleaded with him, cried before him, but still I am unwell. This does not mean that he has turned his back, and that my condition is a kind of punishment; that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what ill health is, to us and to God. He does not rescue us from the Valley of the Shadow, he walks beside us. We pass through the fire to be refined by it.

Or I think of my good friend B, who has had two major heart operations, and is living with an ongoing heart condition. How dare anyone suggest that this is because her Christian faith is not adequate, or her forgiveness of others incomplete?

This kind of thinking is so crass it is absolutely beyond belief.

Hear, hear. Some people have told me that I have not been healed because I do not have enough faith; Jesus said we only need faith the size of a mustard seed.
If all the times that I have been for prayer and anointing, had prayer ministry and myself asked - no, begged, as you say - for physical healing, amount to faith that is smaller than the size of a mustard seed, I don't think there's much hope for anyone.
And if faith were the determining factor in healing, then the man who approached Jesus and said "IF you want to, you can make my child well", should no have received anything at all because of his implied doubts - yet he did. Likewise with the man who said "I believe, help me in my unbelief".

 

[Catherineanne]

Hear, hear. Some people have told me that I have not been healed because I do not have enough faith; Jesus said we only need faith the size of a mustard seed.
If all the times that I have been for prayer and anointing, had prayer ministry and myself asked - no, begged, as you say - for physical healing, amount to faith that is smaller than the size of a mustard seed, I don't think there's much hope for anyone.
And if faith were the determining factor in healing, then the man who approached Jesus and said "IF you want to, you can make my child well", should no have received anything at all because of his implied doubts - yet he did. Likewise with the man who said "I believe, help me in my unbelief".

It is not the case that you and I have not been healed. Just that the healing is of something other than our ailments.

Personally, I would have chosen the other way round, but this is about what God wants, not what we want.

The hardest prayer for any of us to pray, and actually mean, is; 'Thy will be done.' If a person has a chronic condition, and goes through the anger and the shouting at God, and reaches the place where they can say this prayer, then they have reached the same place as Christ at Gethesmane, where he said, 'yet not my will but thine be done'. And even then God did not save him, but let him be taken to his death.

And if God can do this with his own son, we cannot be surprised if he also allows us to go even to death, if he wants us to.

Lord, have mercy,
Christ, have mercy,
Lord, have mercy.

 

[Strong in Him]

It is not the case that you and I have not been healed. Just that the healing is of something other than our ailments.

Yes, I'm sorry, you're quite right. I have been healed of a number of things.

Personally, I would have chosen the other way round, but this is about what God wants, not what we want.

Right again! When I first started praying for healing from my allergies - many years ago, when I first became a Christian, I used to hear sermons on wholeness, and being healed from past hurts and so on, and think "I'm not bothered about all that; just make me well". (By which I meant take the symptoms away.) That sounds awful now but that's how I thought then.
But God loves me so much and wants me to have a relationship with him. This is more important to him (and me now as well) than whether my body works perfectly. It's not that he doesn't care about the other details of my life, but this is important and if I have given myself to him, he is my Lord and will work in me as he thinks best. I need to remind myself that he does know, and will do, what is best and his was are perfect - though they may be beyond my understanding at times.

The hardest prayer for any of us to pray, and actually mean, is; 'Thy will be done.' If a person has a chronic condition, and goes through the anger and the shouting at God, and reaches the place where they can say this prayer, then they have reached the same place as Christ at Gethesmane, where he said, 'yet not my will but thine be done'. And even then God did not save him, but let him be taken to his death.

And yet I have to admit that I sometimes pray "thy will be done (but please let it agree with my will or be comfortable for me.)" I have a lot to learn.

 

[Catherineanne]

And yet I have to admit that I sometimes pray "thy will be done (but please let it agree with my will or be comfortable for me.)" I have a lot to learn.

Haven't we all?

I have reached the stage where I can only pray the Kyrie, either for me or for anyone else. I don't know any other prayer that I can say, and mean, in the same way. Sometimes the Lord's Prayer is ok, but it is rather too broad in scope for me, and sometimes the Ave is nice, but I am not a Roman and it takes a lot of thinking about the words, so that is not so easy. So the Kyrie is what remains, when all else falls silent. Or else silence itself, of course; the most sincere of all prayers.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I agree with all of this,
and would only add that David is now fully healed and standing before the Lord.
To see death as a failure is to miss the final, and most important, chapter of our lives.
None of us will ever achieve perfect healing on earth; it can only come in eternity.

Agreed, in part:
1. No human is 'perfect', that quality belongs to GOD alone.

Yet, because He created us each to "heal", mortally let's want this state, as much as He wants it for us, meaning we do whatever is necessary, including our *forgiving* everyone. Why? because this act frees healing.
&
2. GOD tells us 'each' person tastes death once. -

But clinical experience has demonstrated repeatedly, that the most important-chapter in everyone's life, lies in our earliest developments inside our mother's womb. - And research has now shown, that each of our moms' beliefs, emotions, thoughts, schooling, conflicts, etc - directly "imprint & train" each pre-born babe. And sets in motion, each child's earliest behavioral strategies, affecting how his/her body develops... The next most critical chapter is a person's 1st. year; before most babies become speakers. - You would be amazed, how much (both for good , & evil ) these 2 periods shape each person's subconsious mind, which earliest programmings then run the persons' choices... throughout life. Can they be changed? - Yes! when you have learned how.
&
3. GOD's plan-of-Salvation, (not only for the soul, as commonly assumed)

was for all-of-us, as a whole: soul~mind~body. GOD wants us whole & mortally & now. Why? He loves us, perfectly. and
Once we each knew GOD sent us to earth with this knowledge, of giving one's soul~mind~body team permission to remember to heal. GOD, perfect forever, delights our highest & deepest & expanding joy

 

[Catherineanne]

because this act frees healing.

I think you completely miss the point about what God's healing actually is.

God help you if you ever fall ill.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yet, because He created us each to "heal",

He didn't create us to heal. When he created Adam and Eve, the world was perfect. What was there to heal; nothing was sick or broken? Adam and Eve caused sin and sickness to come into the world; they were not created to fix the mess that someone else had made.

We were created by God for God; to have a relationship with him. In the beginning, that relationship was perfect, then we messed up and sin, sickness and death came into the world. It is GOD who took steps to put that relationship with himself right. First of all he gave the Jews his law, complete with a system of offering sacrifices for sin to restore fellowship with himself. Then, when human beings showed that they were incapable of keeping his command, he made a New Covenant which was fulfilled in Jesus. It is by his sacrificial death on the cross that we have forgiveness, peace and reconciliation with God and eternal life. Now, through Jesus, we can be all that God intended us to be. Through him, we have every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3), we belong to God and have been given his Spirit(2 Cor 1:22), we have been set free (Rom 8:2). In the words of the hymn, we have "blessings all mine and ten thousand beside."

We can all be involved in the ministry of healing - physical healing is a gift the Holy Spirit gives to some people (1 Cor 12:28), but we are all ased to forgive one another, love as Jesus loves us, proclaim the Gospel and be part of the ministry of reconciliation which God gives to us all.

But clinical experience has demonstrated repeatedly, that the most important-chapter in everyone's life, lies in our earliest developments inside our mother's womb. - And research has now shown, that each of our moms' beliefs, emotions, thoughts, schooling, conflicts, etc - directly "imprint & train" each pre-born babe. And sets in motion, each child's earliest behavioral strategies, affecting how his/her body develops... The next most critical chapter is a person's 1st. year; before most babies become speakers. - You would be amazed, how much (both for good , & evil ) these 2 periods shape each person's subconsious mind, which earliest programmings then run the persons' choices... throughout life.

They may well do, and some people might find that certain attitudes, thought patterns and so on started when they were very young, or are a result of experiences that happened to them in early childhood, or even before birth. God can heal people of these, and does. Psalm 139 tells how God formed us in our mother's womb and saw and knew us before anyone else did. He knows everything that has ever happened to us, he was there when it happened and can take away the bad memories, hurts and heal the things that we aren't even aware of.

Can they be changed? - Yes! when you have learned how.

That sounds like the beginning of an advert for a self help manual. The only person who can bring deep and hidden things to light is God - at least, he's the only one I would trust to do so. I have heard too much about "false memories" - incidents being suggested to a person, under hypnosis - of which they needed healing, and their therapist is the only one who can do it, to want to go down that path, and I wouldn't touch hypnosis with a barge pole. As I said, God was there before I was born, and he is the one who can show me what, if anything, from that time needs healing and deal with it.

GOD's plan-of-Salvation, (not only for the soul, as commonly assumed)

was for all-of-us, as a whole: soul~mind~body. GOD wants us whole & mortally & now. Why? He loves us, perfectly.

When we die we will receive the fulness of salvation; perfect in mind, body and spirit. Jesus came to die for our sin and reconcile us to God. He came to be the second Adam (Romans 5:12-21), to be the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), and to restore our relationship with God to what it was like before Adam sinned. God cares about us, our health and our bodies, but I do not believe this is his main priority. What good would it be if someone died, aged 100, in perfect health and yet hadn't received forgiveness for their sins? They would not be reconciled to God.
It doesn't have to be a case of either/or; someone can know God, be forgiven by him and be in good physical health. In fact many people do and are. But great physical health and freedom from pain or disability are not promised to us as long as we still live in this imperfect world. Some people see them, and financial blessing, as a sign of God's love for us. No - the cross is the sign of God's love for us. God loved us so much that he died so that we might know him.

Once we each knew GOD sent us to earth with this knowledge, of giving one's soul~mind~body team permission to remember to heal. GOD, perfect forever, delights our highest & deepest & expanding joy

I don't know where you got that philosophy from but it wasn't the Bible. It sounds almost New Age to me.
Jesus died for all of us while we were still sinners. He didn't wait til we knew him, he didn't ask us to become "good enough" (impossible) to earn his forgiveness. It is he, through his Spirit, who can bring all things to light and heal us to be the person he created us to be.
Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit who can live in us. It is not the same as happiness, we can know the joy of the Lord even when we are not pysically whole, or well.

 

[Catherineanne]

Jesus died for all of us while we were still sinners. He didn't wait til we knew him, he didn't ask us to become "good enough" (impossible) to earn his forgiveness. It is he, through his Spirit, who can bring all things to light and heal us to be the person he created us to be.
Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit who can live in us. It is not the same as happiness, we can know the joy of the Lord even when we are not pysically whole, or well.

Sometimes especially so.

 

[Melethiel]

Excellent post.

 

[sunlover1]

Haven't we all?

I have reached the stage where I can only pray the Kyrie, either for me or for anyone else. I don't know any other prayer that I can say, and mean, in the same way. Sometimes the Lord's Prayer is ok, but it is rather too broad in scope for me, and sometimes the Ave is nice, but I am not a Roman and it takes a lot of thinking about the words, so that is not so easy. So the Kyrie is what remains, when all else falls silent. Or else silence itself, of course; the most sincere of all prayers.

Or else like He suggested in His Word, by faith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray,
believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftnref1

I think you completely miss the point about what God's healing actually is.

God help you if you ever fall ill.

Maybe it's not her who's missing the point.
She seems to be in agreement with Jesus:

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing.
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name,
he will give it you. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftnref1



10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed,
Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel...


13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftn1
Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this?
They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying,
According to your faith be it unto youhttp://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftn1


http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftnref1


http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=49592387#_ftnref1

 

[sunlover1]

Hear, hear. Some people have told me that I have not been healed because I do not have enough faith; Jesus said we only need faith the size of a mustard seed.

But that's not what He said, in fact, He first informed the disciples
that their problem was lack of faith, certainly the disciples if ANYone,
had faith the SIZE of a mustard seed. But Jesus wasnt speaking
ONLY of size here.

Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

Now that's Jesus Speaking.
Jesus only Speaks what He hears from the Father.

And here he mentions the mustard seed, saying that if they had
faith AS a mustard seed... but He then says that this kind goes
not out BUT by prayer and fasting:

for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it
shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Here He explains the mustard seed concept:

And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God?
or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which,
when it is sown in the earth,
is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up,
and becometh greater than all herbs,
and shooteth out great branches;
so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

And finally, once again:

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root,
and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle,
will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field,
Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup,
and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken;
and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 † Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him?
I trow not.
10 So likewise ye,
when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,
We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
† A Greek word occurs that is not directly translated in the King James Version.
Greek Strongs: 3361

And if faith were the determining factor in healing, then the man who approached Jesus and said "IF you want to, you can make my child well", should no have received anything at all because of his implied doubts - yet he did. Likewise with the man who said "I believe, help me in my unbelief

Again, Jesus spoke such:

57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them,

A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.​

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. 36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they faintedd, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
d fainted...: or, were tired and lay down

 

[Melethiel]

And faith will always pray "Thy will be done." God will grant us what we ask when we pray according to his will - which may not always be physical healing.

 

[Merlin]

How dare anyone suggest that this is because her Christian faith is not adequate, or her forgiveness of others incomplete?

This kind of thinking is so crass it is absolutely beyond belief.

I kinda missed that post.
You know, the one which states this particular person has a specific issue of any kind.
Please quote that post here.

 

[Merlin]

Do you interpret this as physical healing, M?

Why?

The particular word, translated as healed also is used as a physical healing in other places in the bible.

gen 20.17
ex 15.26
ex 21.19
lev 14.3
lev 14.48
and so on

isa 53.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

notice the word and here?
it means in addition, or also

and by his wounds we are healed.

 

[Merlin]

You think healing better glorifies the Lord - what does he think?

isa 53.5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

i would assume His beating was for a reason, not in vain.
i trust His word

Is he glorified by someone who's praising him because he has just performed a miracle for them and they are free from their illness and telling others about him? Yes, undoubtedly.
Is he glorified by someone who remains physicaly ill/disabled, but is still a Christian, continues to praise, worship and serve him and who, when asked "how do you manage to do all that you do?" replies that it is GOD who gives them strength, joy, peace and so on? Yes, I'd say so. People have asked me that very thing, and sometimes asked how I can have faith when I have not been physically healed. This gives me a chance to give my testimony and talk about God. And I believe it helps other who are ill and praying for healing to believe that God hasn't finished with them, or that they are not too sick to be used by him.
Which glorifies God the more? You ask him.

I guess that's why there are so very many verses which state
'and the Lord left him ill that He might be glorified in the illness.'
you think?

So one minute you're saying that some cancers and other illnesses are caused by unforgiveness and negative emotions and that if these are removed the body will heal itself, and the next, you are saying that God had healed him.

yup.
i'm not referring to specific divine intervention, just healing.
if i had a cold, and my body healed over the next 10 days, i claim God healed me, by His glorious design of my body. not a specific instantaneous divine intervention of normal events.

 

[Merlin]

Yes, we are discussing sin.
You are saying that disease is caused by unforgiveness.
Unforgiveness, in the context we are discussing, is a sin.

I've always understood sin as violating the law.
which law is it that refers to forgiveness?
leviticus? deuteronomy? genesis maybe?

 

[Merlin]

So where are you actually coming from on this? What is your belief about healing and the healing ministry?

2 different topics.
Jesus took the beating for us to be able to heal
it may surprise you to know, even those who reject salvation can heal.

Because one minute it sounds as though you're saying that we don't need doctors,

never said that at all.
only referred to their limitations.

the human body has everything it needs to be able to heal itself,

yup.
Doctors don't heal us.

the only things stopping it are negative emotions

no. i referred to one overlooked/unknown thing which can interfere, especially in the case of chronic illness.
the rest is imagination on the part of others.

and that if these were put right, even hereditary illnesses would be cured,

neither have i said just do x and you'll automatically be healed.

which all sounds rather mystical to me, even humanistic

had i said that, then i'd agree

- we can heal ourselves.

yup, by God's design. not of any man [but Jesus], not even 'doctors'

And the next you're quoting a part of a Scripture which you say tells us we are already physically healed by Jesus' death on the cross.

no.
the cross was for sin.
the stripes was that we might heal physically.

So which is it? That God has designed the human body to heal itself,

yup

which it will do in the absence of negative emoptions and interference by doctors, or that all our physical illnesses were taken by Jesus on the cross and we are healed by his death?

nope.
His death was for sin.
His stripes was so that we could heal.

 

[Merlin]

He didn't create us to heal.

then please explain antibodies, white blood cells, fever, etc.
are you trying to say only a christian can heal?
an athiest must die if he catches a cold?

The only person who can bring deep and hidden things to light is God

book/chapter?

- at least, he's the only one I would trust to do so.

never trust a psychiatrist or MD?