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"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    And yet Romans 10:9 says that if you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe he was raised from the dead, you will be saved - no mention of baptism.
    Some might do, or have done this, but die before they are able to be baptised - are you saying that they are then the same as unbelievers?
     
  2. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    That, or "bitter and discerning." ;)

    Because you have to torture it to make it agree with your confirmation bias?

    Faith isn't a work.

    I see you skipped verse 8.
     
  3. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Galatians 2:15-16 (ESV)
    15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,
    so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    This is the new life (Romans 6:1-5), and is salvation from sin and death, which is all possible by God’s grace, through His Word and Spirit, to those who believe (a continued faith), remaining faithful to the end.

    Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
    16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

    Romans 5:1-2 (NIV)
    Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

    1 Peter 1:4-5 (KJV)
    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Blessings
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You fail to understand that a believer can be in the Kingdom and yet later be cast out on the account of sin. Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin), and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So at the Judgment, Christians who are in the Kingdom will be cast out and thrown into the Lake of Fire if they do iniquity or sin.
     
  5. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Because one believes is nothing to boast of for anyone can believe that so chooses to just as anyone can repent confess and be baptized. Did Noah have anything to boast of when he obeyed and built the ark to the saving of his house? No, he simply did as God commanded him but he was still in need of grace for obedience alone apart from grace cannot save for one's obedience will not be perfectly sinless:

    Lue 17:10
    So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    When a person obeys God's will he is only doing what was his duty to do, yet he is still 'unprofitable' for one's obdience to God is not sinlessly perfect thereby leaving one still in need of grace. Yet one must obey in order to have access to God's grace for not obeying makes one derelict in doing his duty in obeying God and fall short of God's grace.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true. Paul talks about this thing called the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. This is why James says faith without works is dead in James 2:17. This is why James say we are justified by works (the work of faith) and not by faith alone (a belief alone) (James 2:24). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So naturally the “work of faith” is a part of the faith. They breath in harmony together. They are two sides of the same coin. For we read in Hebrews 11 about those who had faith also obeyed God.

    In fact, your whole Bible is the faith. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible) (See: Romans 10:17). Any part of the Bible we do not accept, it will be like in the parable of the sower. The seed of the Word of God will not remain in us and we will not believe that part of the faith in the Bible.
     
  7. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    Then put it in order. Are you saved by the work of faith? If "yes," then you're literally saying you're saved by works. Simple as that. Just tear out the entire book of Galatians while you're at it.
     
  8. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    You're still flip-flopping. I'm asking you to explain the process of salvation in consecutive order: "A, B, C, D. . ."
     
  9. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    Just because you claim you're not boasting doesn't mean you're promoting something to boast of. Your citation of Luke 17:10 would be dishonest flattery, according to your works-method of salvation.
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Ephesians 2:8-9" simply does not state that faith is part of salvation; rather, we are saved when we believe. Faith is not a work.

    IF you want to say that Ephesians 2:8-9 means something different, than show the teaching from other passages to give context to what you believe it means.

    Correct.

    Lord Jesus answers verse 8 plainly in verses 14-18.

    What does the Spirit will to do?

    The will of the Spirit is to indwell and give life to those who believe:

    John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

    Blessings
     
  11. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 6:8 does not mean Noah worked to earn grace. <-- Because even this is a complete contradiction, since grace by definition is not earned.

    Thus, Noah found un-merited favor in God's sight. Noah didn't earn it. And that was before building the ark.
     
  12. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    Is the Spirit subordinate to the belief of the believer?
     
  13. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Romans 10:9 alone is not the sum of God's thoughts, this one verse is not all the counsel of God. Romans 10:9 does not specifically mention baptism but neither does it specifically mention grace or the blood of Christ or repentance but that does not eliminate these things being necessary in becoming saved.

    The context of Romans 10, Paul was not giving a lesson on all one must do to be saved but was explaining why his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, were lost (Romans 10:1-3) therefore just being descendants from Abraham was not sufficient for the Jews to be saved, Paul is contrasting nationality to obedience to God's will in being saved as one saves the other does not.

    "In Romans 10, Paul is not stressing the specific aspects of the conversion process. That is not the context. Rather, the context addresses whether one is acceptable to God in the Christian dispensation due to physical heritage (i.e., race/ethnicity), versus whether one is saved when one complies with God’s instruction. Paul was stressing that their nationality could not bring the Jews into God’s favor. Rather, people are saved when they render obedience to the Gospel. He quoted Joel 2:32, where the emphasis is on the word “whosoever” in contrast to “Jews only.” Verse 12 argues that God does not distinguish on the basis of race. The individual’s response to the preached Word is the deciding factor. However, Romans 10 does not reveal all of the details of that obedient response. One must be willing to search out the whole truth on such a subject.

    If repentance is essential to salvation, one must concede that such teaching must come from some passage other than Romans 10. Does Romans 10:10 mean that repentance is unnecessary, just because it is unmentioned in the text? No, since repentance is required in chapter 2:4. If not, then why assume baptism to be nonessential simply because it is not mentioned in this particular text? It is enjoined in chapter 6:3-4. To ascertain the significance of baptism in God’s sight, one must go to passages that discuss that subject, rather than dismiss them in deference to verses on faith. If God says, “faith saves” (Romans 5:1), let us accept that truth. If God says, “baptism saves” (1 Peter 3:21), let us accept that truth, too! Jesus Himself said: belief + baptism = salvation (Mark 16:16), not belief = salvation + baptism.

    Notice also, Romans 10:10,13 does not say that salvation can be acquired by mere verbal confession (e.g., “I accept Jesus into my heart as my personal Savior”). Why?

    (1) Nowhere is the statement, “Accept Jesus as your personal Savior,” found in Scripture.

    (2) Jesus forever dashed the idea of salvation by mental acceptance/verbal profession alone in Matthew 7:21 and Luke 6:46, where He showed that oral confession alone is unacceptable. In every age, there have been specified actions of obedience that God has required before He would count individuals as pleasing or acceptable. In fact, if faith is not coupled with the appropriate obedient action (like baptism), then such faith is unable to justify. Such faith is imperfect (James 2:17,20,26) and therefore cannot save!

    (3) The phrase “call on the name of the Lord” is an idiomatic way to say: “respond with appropriate obedient actions.” It is the figure of speech known as synecdoche (i.e., the part stands for the whole). To “call” on God’s name is equivalent to saying, “Do what He tells you to do.” Isaiah 55:6 told the Jews of Isaiah’s day to call on God. Verse 7 explains how: (1) forsake wicked ways, (2) forsake wicked thoughts, (3) return to the Lord. To obey these three stipulations constituted “calling on God.”

    Likewise, those in Jerusalem who “called on the Lord’s name” (Acts 9:14,21) had done so, not solely by verbal confession, but by repentance and baptism for forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Similarly, Paul himself became a Christian, that is, he “called on the name of the Lord”—not by verbally confessing Christ—but by being baptized (Acts 22:16). For Paul, “calling on the Lord’s name” was equivalent to (not precedent to) being baptized. God washed his sins away by the blood of Jesus at the point of his baptism."
    Dave Miller, Ph.D.
    13 Objections to Baptism
     
  14. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    What did you think I made it out to mean?
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, Paul was fighting against what I would call, "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

    So this is why Paul spoke in the way that he did.

    Therefore, there is a BIG difference between...

    #1. Being saved by the Works ALONE by the Law of Moses without God's grace.

    vs.

    #2. Being saved by the “work of faith” (i.e. the second other side of the coin of faith) that continues to access the saving grace of God after we are saved by God's grace through faith (i.e. the first side of the coin of faith).​

    Yes, it is true we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the Law. But it is also equally true that faith then manifests itself by the “work of faith” with God doing the good work through you. Here are a few verses that show this truth.

    1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

    2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

    3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

    4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

    5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

    6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

    7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

    8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

    9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

    10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

    11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

    12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

    For faith is how we access the saving grace of God. 1 John 1:7 says that if walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This means we have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us or save us. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11 (Also see 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15).
     
  16. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    No, for how can one boast about his obedience when his obedience will not be perfect, not be flawless? The Bible speaks of men coming to have faith, is that something they can boast about? No for their faith will not be perfectly sinless leaving them still in need of grace but faith is necessary to access grace, (Romans 5:2)

    So even though the servant did what was his duty in obeying God he is still UNPROFITABLE and being unprofitable is nothing to boast about.
     
  17. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    What slippery handling of Scripture you've engaged in here. Yikes. In context, in Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus is speaking of "tares" in the Church, false brethren "sown" in among genuine believers, not born-again believers unadopted, un-born spiritually, and cast out of God's family.

    Matthew 13:38-42
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  18. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    You are still not demonstrating the step-by-step process of salvation. Start with the unsaved sinner and proceed from there. Ready? Go!
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Arians can lay forth the same argument involving the Trinity. They can say things like if God is three, He cannot be one. So not everything in the Bible fits perfectly neat in how we want things to be. God's ways are not our ways. So again, there is a HUGE difference between:

    #1. Works ALONE Salvationism without God's grace

    vs.

    #2. The faith that starts off as a belief and later manifests itself by the “work of faith” that continues to access the saving grace of God. ​

    Also, all boasting goes to the Lord Jesus Christ and not to ourselves, as well. So there is no Ephesians 2:9 taking place as Paul mentions. A man would only boast in themselves if they thought his work alone is what saved him without God's grace. For even Paul said he labored more than his brethren because of God's grace (1 Corinthians 15:10).
     
  20. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

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    Because you're saying that your initial obedience is what began the process.

    But if that faith is a work, then it's something you can boast of.

    Except for that one work he can boast of.
     
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