"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

setst777

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Why did Paul say he didn't come to baptize, but to preach the Gospel?

We are saved when we believe. But to believe involves repentance - a turning away from serving the old life, and a turning to Lord Jesus to listen to and follow Him.

The point being made here is that Baptism is a command of Lord Jesus. If we claim to have faith in Jesus, yet, fail to confess Him before others in public baptism, as Lord Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:19-20) then we show, right off the bat, that our faith is not the kind of faith that God accepts to be saved.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Sorry, where is the Book of Calvin in my NT?

It's not... I simply gave multiple chapters and verses from the Bible that was missed in all that cherry picking, and gave you one Pastors words on what it means when you put ALL the Scriptures together on the topic of righteousness, when our favorite cherry picking hasn't occurred.

:)

Good day.
 
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BCsenior

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There’s no conditions to stay saved.
There are NO conditions to be initially saved.
Butski, there are conditions to continue to be saved ... because
salvation is a co-operative effort between God and man.
Just for a FUN example ...
If you are a habitual/unrepentant adulterer until death,
thou won't be allowed into heaven
(no matter how much you "believe", have faith, trust, etc. etc.)
Is this a condition, or not?
 
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Strong in Him

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Salvation is a free gift so it cannot be earned.

:oldthumbsup:

But salvation is a CONDITIONAL gift that God placed preconditions upon and one must meet those preconditions (belief repentance confession baptism) in order to receive the free gift.

If a person believes in Jesus and that he died for their sins, confesses their sins, invites Christi into their lives, they have eternal life. Now that doesn't mean that from thereon in they can live as they choose and wilfully sin - but if they have truly experienced the grace and love of God, they very likely won't want to anyway.
Baptism is something that people do (I'm talking about adult believers) to show that they have new life - give public testimony of their conversion then go under the water (dying to sin) and be brought up again (rising to life.) If someone were to confess the sins and receive and confess Christ, and died before they could be baptised, they'd still be saved.


God has commanded men to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38).

Jesus told his disciples to baptise, certainly. But in the example that you gave, the crowd asked Peter what they should do and he told the crowd, who were probably mostly Jews, to be baptised. They still had the sacrificial system for sin; baptism was new.
That is not a command from God that all new believers HAVE to be baptised in order to be saved.

Impossible for one to be righteous apart from doing God's righteous commands. How can one be righteous if he has NEVER done any righteousness?

Abraham was considered as righteous, simply by his faith, Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3.
Paul says that God's righteousness is revealed in the Gospel; a righteousness that is of faith, Romans 1:17, and that righteousness comes through faith in Christ, Romans 3:22.
He also says that Christ was made sin for us so that we could become the righteousness of God, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

God's will is that everyone who believes in the Son will have eternal life, John 6:40. When the Pharisees were asked what work they should do to do what God requires, Jesus said, the work of God is to believe in the One whom he sent, John 6:29.
Christ is our righteousness and makes us righteous. Besides, Jesus' command was to love as he loves us - no one can love with God's agape love unless they have first received it from him. And that means believing in, and accepting, Jesus.
A person could do good deeds, go to church every week and even read the Bible, without knowing Christ and having that relationship with him.
 
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Strong in Him

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Where in John 6 does Lord Jesus teach that faith is a work? Lord Jesus responded to a question, but did not teach anywhere in all is ministry that faith was a work - not once.

John 6:29.
The work of God is this: to believe in the One he has sent.
 
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Paulomycin

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Yes.

obedience................unto................righteousness Romans 6:16
believes..................unto.................righteousness Romans 10:10
confession..............unto.................salvation Romans 10:10
repent/baptized......in order to........receive remission of sins Acts 2:38

Belief repentance confession and baptism therefore are forms of obedience to God's will, they are "doing righteousness" therefore NOT obeying in doing these things is doing UNrighteousness.

Then you have something to boast of.
 
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There are NO conditions to be initially saved.
Butski, there are conditions to continue to be saved ... because
salvation is a co-operative effort between God and man.

If you are a habitual/unrepentant adulterer until death,
thou won't be allowed into heaven
(no matter how much you "believe", etc. etc.)
Is this a condition, or not?

Unconditional Election is false. There are conditions to being initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:13, John 1:12).

We are commanded to believe the gospel (Mark 1:15).
Jesus commands those who are heavy laden to: “Come to me.” (Matthew 11:28).
God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
Christ is not only the propitation (atoning sacrifice) for believer's sins, but he is the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (See: 1 John 2:2).

John 6:44 is a commonly used verse to defend Unconditional Election because it says: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.”

But lets read the context, though.

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard,
and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

(John 6:45).​

In other words: Every man (the Jew) who has HEARD (listened to God through obeying God's commands) and has learned of the Father (loving others - Matthew 5:43-48) comes unto me (i.e. Jesus).

John 6:45 is clear in that this is not in reference to unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. This is in reference to those Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father. THESE are the ones who are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. Not just anybody!

Side Note:

As for the phrase, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.: This is in reference to Isaiah 54:13-14 that says:

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.” (Isaiah 54:13-14).

Meaning, this is in reference to God's children who are established in righteousness (i.e. in seeking God's grace, and in living holy unto the Lord). So John 6:45 is in reference to Jews who have a relationship with God the Father. This is the context of John 6:44. So this is not some kind of forced thing going on (i.e. anti-free will) involving those who do not believe when it says draw. John 6:44 is referring to how no Jew can come to Jesus without first hearing and learning from the Father beforehand (John 6:45).
 
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setst777

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The contradiction is that it’s can’t both be free, and have conditions. Let me be clearer. There’s no condition to get a new heart. God regenerates freely. There’s no conditions to stay saved. There are, however, conditions to be an obedient child. None of my kids asked to be born or adopted. Yet here they are, being loved on. They do have requirements to be obedient. If they are disobedient, there are consequences. None of those consequences involves them ceasing to be our children, not even the adoptive ones.

You are using fleshly wisdom to answer Spiritual things.

There’s no condition to get a new heart, except that you must repent to get it.

Ezekiel 18:30-31 (WEB)
30 Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Ezekiel 11:18-21 (WEB)
18 “‘They will come there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there (repentance). 19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walks after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way on their own heads, (those who do not repent) says the Lord Yahweh.”

God leaves the choice to repent and receive a new heart and Spirit or to not repent up to each individual.

God regenerates freely only those who believe, and only in the New Testament.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

There’s no conditions to stay saved accept the condition to remain faithful to the end to stay saved.

Romans 11:19-22; Revelation 3:1-5; Matthew 24:10; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 6:6; Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 3:17

Blessings
 
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There are NO conditions to be initially saved.
Butski, there are conditions to continue to be saved ... because
salvation is a co-operative effort between God and man.
Just for a FUN example ...
If you are a habitual/unrepentant adulterer until death,
thou won't be allowed into heaven
(no matter how much you "believe", have faith, trust, etc. etc.)
Is this a condition, or not?

Unconditional Election is not true. Here is a heavy hitter verse that should knock this false thinking out of the ballpark. It's 2 Thessalonians 2:10. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is clear that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. So folks are not perishing because God did not zap them to believe. Folks are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. Read the verse for yourself, brother.

Also, read the story of Jonah. Jonah told the Ninevites that in 40 days the city was going to be overthrown, but we learn in Jonah 3:6-10 that the Ninevites did two very important things.

#1. They cried out to GOD.
#2. They forsaked their evil ways.

When GOD seen that they forsaken their wickedness, that is when GOD decided to turn away from the Wrath that He originally planned for them. This makes no sense in the odd world of Unconditional Election.
 
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Butterball1

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Titus 2:1-14 (context, brother).

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
— Titus 2:1-14

We have the first 10 verses discussing various types of people. Older men and women. Younger men and women. Slaves. Masters. So when Paul says


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
— Titus 2:11-12
the “all men” he’s referring to are the types of people referenced in the earlier verses. So when Paul says that God’s grace brings salvation, he actually means that those to whom God’s grace appears are really saved.

The context speaks that grace has appeared to all men, meaning grace has appeared to all men of different ages young and old, each sex and different classes free and bond, rich and poor.

Calvinist Albert Barnes says of Tts 2:11 (my emp)
"Margin, to all men, hath appeared. That is, in the margin, "the grace which brings salvation to all men has been revealed." The marginal reading is most in accordance with the Greek, though it will bear either construction. If that which is in the text be adopted, it means that the plan of salvation has been revealed to all classes of men; that is, that it is announced or revealed to all the race that they may be saved; compare the notes at Colossians 1:23. If the other rendering be adopted, it means that that plan was fitted to secure the salvation of all men; that none were excluded from the offer; that provision had been made for all, and all might come and be saved. Whichever interpretation be adopted, the sense here will not be essentially varied. It is, that the gospel was adapted to man as man, and therefore might include servants as well as masters; subjects, as well as kings; the por, as well as the rich; the ignorant, as well as the learned; see 1 Timothy 2:1-2 notes; Acts 17:26 note."


This grace that appeared to all men is pictured as a Light "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jn 1:6-9.

Luke 2:30-31 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel
.


Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth"

Though the grace of God has appeared to all men, (both sexes, both groups Jews and Gentiles, bond and free, rich and poor) all men are not save for all have not obeyed the will of God in order to receive God's saving grace. Hence Tts 2:11 speaks to the provisions of God's plan of salvation that God has made available to all men thru Christ....the means by which one is saved has appeared to all men but all men will not meet those required means.

Therefore contextually "all men" does not apply to only those who were already saved.
 
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setst777

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Then you have something to boast of.

If, by faith in Jesus, we follow His commands, the Bible calls that humility, although many will detest it.

We are to serve humbly before God, just as Lord Jesus also served (Philippians 2:3-8).

Philippians 2:3-8 (WEB)
3 doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself; 4 each of you not just looking to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others.
5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.

As Believers in Lord Jesus we are to follow Jesus - literally - this submission to Lord Jesus is humility just as Lord Jesus humbled himself:
  • We are to follow Lord Jesus commands, just as Lord Jesus obeyed His Father (John 15:10-11),
  • We are to to overcome as Lord Jesus overcame (Revelation 3:21),
  • We are to love others as Lord Jesus loves us (John 15:12-14),
  • We are to obey Lord Jesus, as He obeyed His Father (Hebrews 5:8-9),
  • We are to suffer as Lord Jesus also suffered (Romans 8:17; 1 Peter 2:21; 1 Peter 4:1-4),
  • We are to bear temptation just as Lord Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15),
  • We are to lay down our lives for our brothers, just as Lord Jesus did (1 John 3:16)
  • We are to walk, even as Lord Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6).
1 John 2:4-6 (WEB)
4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Blessings
 
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aiki

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All verses below are from the NKJV.

“… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”
(
1 John 2:29)

“… whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God …”
(
1 John 3:10)

“He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous.” (
1 John 3:7)

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil
are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness
is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.”
(
1 John 3:10)

“… whoever fears Him and works righteousness
is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)


“… (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness
(Romans 6:16)

“… slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (
Romans 6:19)

God does NOT practice righteousness for BACs.
BACs must do the practicing of righteousness for themselves.

From the verses above, do we agree?
God only invites into heaven …
those who have a standing of righteousness before Him,
those whom He considers righteous.

Still the same old works-salvation moralism, eh? You're like a dog with a bone with this stuff!

1 Corinthians puts the brakes on your thinking, BCSenior. Read chapters 3, 5, 6 and 11. The Corinthian believers were messing up big time, engaged in some very gross and willful sin, and yet, Paul confirms again and again in his first epistle to them that they were, nonetheless, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. In the same chapters where he criticizes them for their sin, Paul calls them "babes in Christ," God's "building" and "field," "brethren," "temple of God" and "saints." Clearly, Paul did not think that sin in a believer's life ejected them from God's family and kingdom. He certainly emphasized how incongruous with their identity in Christ sin was, but he never once says, "If you sin, you're out."

Typically, saved-and-lost moralists conflate inevitability with necessity. They assume that because good works are inevitable to a spiritually-healthy and mature believer, therefore, good works are necessary to being a believer. This is like thinking that an apple tree must bear apples in order to be an apple tree. But what about the apple tree too immature to do so? Or the apple tree set in bad soil, without sufficient nutrients in the ground to nourish it and enable it to produce apples? Or the apple tree infected with disease or insects that prevent it from bringing forth apples? It would be silly to say of these sorts of apple trees, "Oh, those aren't apple trees. They must produce fruit if they are to truly be apple trees. It is necessary to being an apple tree that apples be produced." But this is what folks like BCSenior (and others on this thread) are saying about Christians. They don't allow for spiritual immaturity, or for a lack of proper spiritual nourishment in the teaching a believer has received, or the hindering effects of "spiritual disease" like addictions, deeply-ingrained sinful habits, and unrecognized lies shaping their living.

To further delineate the difference between inevitability and necessity simply imagine a boat with a hole in its hull lying on the bottom of a lake. A scuba diver finds it and says to himself, "Oh, look, a boat!" He recognizes that the boat is a boat even though it's not floating, as it was made to do. Inevitably, if the boat had no hole in it, it would be on top of the water, floating. But, is the boat not a boat because it's not floating? Is floating necessary for the boat to be a boat? What if the boat was in dry-dock getting painted? It wouldn't be floating, as it was made to do. Is it therefore not a boat? Of course not. While floating is inevitable for a boat in good repair that has been put on the water, it's not necessary to a boat being a boat; the boat doesn't have to float in order to be a boat.

So, too, with a born-again believer. While good works are inevitable to a healthy spiritual life in Christ, they aren't necessary. As some have already pointed out in this thread, a Christian doesn't have to be righteous in order to be a Christian; a Christian is righteous because s/he is a (spiritually healthy and mature) Christian.

The moralist typically objects to this thinking, resorting to ridiculous extremes in their objection. "You're saying a born-again Christian can live like the devil, then!" No, all I'm saying is that sin will still plague a believer, born-again though s/he may be - especially early on in their walk with God. Over time, as the believer matures, sin becomes increasingly the exception in his/her life, their position in Christ reflected more and more in their daily condition (living).

Righteousness is not an end in itself, as the moralist typically contends, but merely the means to joyful fellowship with God. It leads the immature believer badly astray to obscure communion with God with do's and don'ts, scaring them into obedience to God with threats of lost salvation, rather than pointing them to His love as the basis for their walk with Him. (See 1 John 4:16-19; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; Romans 8:38-39) Scare tactics appeal to Self-interest, to self-preservation, not to love for God. Anything that produces this focus counters rather than assists Christian living. Truly enjoying God, walking well with Him, requires death to Self, not a fearful striving to protect Self. (Matthew 10:37-39; Matthew 16:24-25; John 12:24-25)
 
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Butterball1

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Agreed. The BAC who forever hereafter 'abandons their faith' is not of the Elect. Nor was his 'faith' of God, if it failed. My guess is that Stanley draws on several passages for this, particularly the one that says, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Stanley says
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand” (p. 74). Earlier in the book Dr. Stanley writes: "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation”.



---Stanley speaks of believers who become unbelievers.

So if a believer becomes an unbeliever then will he be saved anyway per Stanley using 1 Cor 3:15 or does his unbelief prove he never really did believe to begin with as some OSASers would claim using 1 John 2:19?

He cannot be, at the same time, both "saved anyway" and "never really saved" so which is it?
 
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Paulomycin

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If, by faith in Jesus, we follow His commands, the Bible calls that humility, although many will detest it.

We are to serve humbly before God, just as Lord Jesus also served (Philippians 2:3-8).

Philippians 2:3-8 (WEB)
3 doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself; 4 each of you not just looking to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others.
5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.

As Believers in Lord Jesus we are to follow Jesus - literally - this submission to Lord Jesus is humility just as Lord Jesus humbled himself:
  • We are to follow Lord Jesus commands, just as Lord Jesus obeyed His Father (John 15:10-11),
  • We are to to overcome as Lord Jesus overcame (Revelation 3:21),
  • We are to love others as Lord Jesus loves us (John 15:12-14),
  • We are to obey Lord Jesus, as He obeyed His Father (Hebrews 5:8-9),
  • We are to suffer as Lord Jesus also suffered (Romans 8:17; 1 Peter 2:21; 1 Peter 4:1-4),
  • We are to bear temptation just as Lord Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15),
  • We are to lay down our lives for our brothers, just as Lord Jesus did (1 John 3:16)
Blessings

Doesn't matter how humbly you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. You're still contradicting it.

Besides, it's only genuine humility when you don't have to fake it. Stop patting yourself on the back. Everyone can see it.
 
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Butterball1

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Why did Paul say he didn't come to baptize, but to preach the Gospel?
There were those at Corinth that were following preachers (Paul, Apollos, Cephas) rather than all following Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:12. Therefore Paul only baptized very few in Corinth "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name" hence Paul did not baptize many in Corinth for he did not want to create Paulites, that is, he did not want to create followers of himself rather than followers of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:17 is a not-but elliptical statemnet, a figure of speech where Paul put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing for Paul DID baptize (1 Corinthians 1:14-16)

Therefore his baptizing just a few has nothing to do with the necessity of baptism. Paul actually used the necessity of baptism to unite all in Coirnth to be "of Christ" rather than divided with some being "of Paul" some "of Apollos" and some "of Cephas":

"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
In order to heal the division at Corinth, Paul asks the above rhetorical question in the negative. Stated positively Paul is saying "Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ!"

Paul's point is this: if you are going to be "of" someone then 2 things must be true of that someone, that some one:
1) must have been crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in that some one's name.

Since these 2 things are only true "of Christ" then no one could be "of Paul or "of Apollos"or "of Cephas".

Therefore, in order for you and I to be "of Christ" this means Christ must have
1) been crucified for us, which He was (Hebrews 2:9)
2) we must be baptized in the name of Christ (I was water baptized many years ago)

Again, BOTH 1 and 2 MUST be true for one to be of Christ, not just one. If Christ being crucified is all that was needed to be "of Christ" then all men would be saved for Christ tasted death for all men Heb 2:9. Even though Christ died for all men, all men will not be saved for all men have not been baptized in the name of Christ.
 
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setst777

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Doesn't matter how humbly you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. You're still contradicting it.

Besides, it's only genuine humility when you don't have to fake it. Stop patting yourself on the back. Everyone can see it.

I can see you have a bitter and judgmental spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
does not teach what you make it out to mean.

All God's grace and power onto salvation come to us by faith (Romans 5:1-2; Romans 1:16-17).

And this is by the Sovereign plan of God (John 3:14-18).

Blessings
 
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John Mullally

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FWIW Calvinists/ Reformed do not believe in 'Automatic' as such. We DO believe God will complete what he has begun, and that the BAC will indeed work and be obedient. In fact, you will find it hard to find a well-known Reformer who (if asked about it) does not insist on the necessity for diligence and discipline.
The point of my quoting Romans 6:10-14 (written to believers) is to show that the Lord instructs believers to take certain actions in order to effect the desired change (i.e. becoming instruments of righteousness). Hopefully this is obvious: God is not a forcer and He will not do for us what he has instructed us to do.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Then you have something to boast of.

Ephesians 2:9 is in reference to being saved by
Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism” without God's grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial Salvation because Ephesians 2:1 says we are quickened. How many times have we been quickened? Only one time when we are born again. We also are told in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by God's grace through faith like a gift (singular). God's grace is the gift. For God so love the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son (John 3:16). Jesus is the gift. How many times do we receive a gift? Generally we receive a gift just one time. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to how we are initially and foundationally saved. It is referring to how we cannot save ourselves by some kind of cosmic weight scale whereby our good deeds can outweigh our bad deeds. No man can save themselves by Works Alone that does not include God's saving grace. A person's past slate of sin needs to first be wiped out before they can walk in the Lord and obey Him. For a man who boasts in Ephesians 2:9 is boasting in how he is saving himself alone without God's grace.

Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of faith (or the work of God done through the believer) after they are saved by God's grace. This is the kind of work whereby a person will boast in the Lord for any good done in their life and not in themselves.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

We see this was a theme also in the Old Testament, too. For Deuteronomy 8:2 says,
“And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

So God put the Israelites through the wilderness to humble them and to see if they would keep His commandments, or not; And God still has not changed today.

For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So it's not boasting to obey God, but it's about showing whether or not we truly love the Lord or not. For even the last chapter of Revelation says this:

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).
 
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Paulomycin

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Ephesians 2:9 is in reference to being saved by
Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism” without God's grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial Salvation because Ephesians 2:1 says we are quickened. How many times have we been quickened? Only one time when we are born again. We also are told in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by God's grace through faith like a gift (singular). God's grace is the gift. For God so love the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son (John 3:16). Jesus is the gift. How many times do we receive a gift? Generally we receive a gift just one time. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to how we are initially and foundationally saved. It is referring to how we cannot save ourselves by some kind of cosmic weight scale whereby our good deeds can outweigh our bad deeds. No man can save themselves by Works Alone that does not include God's saving grace. A person's past slate of sin needs to first be wiped out before they can walk in the Lord and obey Him. For a man who boasts in Ephesians 2:9 is boasting in how he is saving himself alone without God's grace.

Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of faith (or the work of God done through the believer) after they are saved by God's grace. This is the kind of work whereby a person will boast in the Lord for any good done in their life and not in themselves.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

We see this was a theme also in the Old Testament, too. For Deuteronomy 8:2 says,
“And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

So God put the Israelites through the wilderness to humble them and to see if they would keep His commandments, or not; And God still has not changed today.

For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So it's not boasting to obey God, but it's about showing whether or not we truly love the Lord or not. For even the last chapter of Revelation says this:

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

But can you put it in order?

Is it salvation by the work of faith then works?

Is it salvation by the work of faith that produces grace, then works?

Which comes first? What's 'A' then 'B' here? Why do you need to run a shell game with the doctrines of grace? Grace means "un-merited favor."
 
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:oldthumbsup:



If a person believes in Jesus and that he died for their sins, confesses their sins, invites Christi into their lives, they have eternal life. Now that doesn't mean that from thereon in they can live as they choose and wilfully sin - but if they have truly experienced the grace and love of God, they very likely won't want to anyway.
Baptism is something that people do (I'm talking about adult believers) to show that they have new life - give public testimony of their conversion then go under the water (dying to sin) and be brought up again (rising to life.) If someone were to confess the sins and receive and confess Christ, and died before they could be baptised, they'd still be saved.

Baptism is just as essential to salvation as belief (Mark 16:16) and repentance (Acts 2:38) for note how the conjunction "and" in these 2 verses ties belief and repentance to baptism making them ALL of equal importance, all commanded therefore all necessary. Baptism is the point God removes the body of sin Colossians 2:11-12 remitting sins (Acts 2:38). One does not walk in newness of life until AFTER one has been baptised, Romans 6:3-5. There submitting to God's righteousness in being water baptized does not earn God's free gift no more than doing the works of believing repenting or confessing for all are simply meeting preconditions God has placed upon salvation, no more than Noah's obedient work earned the salvation of his household.

Strong In Him said:
Jesus told his disciples to baptise, certainly. But in the example that you gave, the crowd asked Peter what they should do and he told the crowd, who were probably mostly Jews, to be baptised. They still had the sacrificial system for sin; baptism was new.
That is not a command from God that all new believers HAVE to be baptised in order to be saved.

Baptism of Acts 2:38 was new for it was not available to Jews under the OT law, for under the OT law all they had for sin was the blood of bulls and goats that could not take away sin (Hebrews 10:1-4). Yet now under the NT gospel and the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Luke 24:47 cf Acts 2:38) all men (Jew & Gentile) can be water baptized whereby the blood of Christ washes away all sin which again something the blood of bulls and goats could not do.


Strong in Him said:
Abraham was considered as righteous, simply by his faith, Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3.
Paul says that God's righteousness is revealed in the Gospel; a righteousness that is of faith, Romans 1:17, and that righteousness comes through faith in Christ, Romans 3:22.
He also says that Christ was made sin for us so that we could become the righteousness of God, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Abraham had an obedient faith (Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17)and not a 'faith only' which could not justify him (James 2:21-22)

Strong In Him said:
God's will is that everyone who believes in the Son will have eternal life, John 6:40. When the Pharisees were asked what work they should do to do what God requires, Jesus said, the work of God is to believe in the One whom he sent, John 6:29.
Christ is our righteousness and makes us righteous. Besides, Jesus' command was to love as he loves us - no one can love with God's agape love unless they have first received it from him. And that means believing in, and accepting, Jesus.
A person could do good deeds, go to church every week and even read the Bible, without knowing Christ and having that relationship with him.

If we consider "all the counsel of God" (Acts of the Apostles 20:27) and consider the "sum" of God's thoughts (Psalms 139:17) and not just cherry pick a few verses then we find Christ required more than belief only to be saved but equally required repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16). Meaning a NT beleif INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism and would be dead without these things being alone.

Those whom Christ makes righteous are those who obey Him in believing repenting confession and submitting to baptism. Back to the topic of this thread, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be made righteous apart from doing righteousness/obeying God's commands. Righteousness is not just an idea, it is what one does, how one lives his life and therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to be righteous without ever having done any righteousness.
 
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