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He who began a good work

pshun2404

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That's not in the verse, or the passage, in discussion.

Isolating one verse apart from how it is related to others does nothing. In many cases doing this has led to the formation of false doctrines and even entire denominations (Boston church of Christ hinges on Mark 16, the Word of faith movement on Mark 11, the UPC on Acts 2:38). Likewise we must view these passages as they are all the word of God but we must see them as they fit the whole, I cannot understand a gasoline engine by focusing only on the fan belt.

Arcoe's response was entirely relative because it adds data regarding the process that the passage in discussion actually indicates...the passage in discussion is not doubted or taken away from in any way by what he added...but if these other passages were not part of the whole, or are excluded from the discussion (thus creating a box which stacks the deck) one could make the passage in discussion mean that from the "begun" to the "finish" there is nothing else involved but we know that is not true.

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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If God does it all you won't be yourself and live as you have always done. For God puts His Spirit with in you and causes you to walk in His statutes..

24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God

Yes WHEN is the key word...the word says this happens when they receive Him and to those who have believed...it does not say it happens so they will receive or to make them believe...

Paul
 
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Hammster

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NOT! Been there done that and then I realized I was cutting out huge sections of scripture or re-interpreting then through a select set of others (not what God wanted me to do). Salvation is all of God, and I have explained and re-explained how that is not the same as the absolute determinism and ultimately double predestination as described by Johnny who came lately! But thanks for the strangely obvious attempt at a snare to re-ignite the fires of division. Herein we can all re-invent the proverbial war wheel again that later coming Johnny started 500 years ago (which has never ceased to be re-ignited over and over exhaustively since). Maybe one day we all can follow Johnny and renew his purging (after all it is God's will whatever we do).

Since this kind of dialogue is what the devil intended we might as well engage it, right? I mean it is all God's will, even accusation of the brethren and division of the unity of the Holy Spirit and so on...is it not? Even every work of the devil (which Christ came to destroy) is the work of God and absolutely determined according to His will and good pleasure (God forbid! Father forgive them as they know not what they do.)

In His name

Paul

Wow. Really?
 
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Hammster

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monergist, synergist, blah, blah, blah...what is really important is to include all the Lord has given us to understand this process and that is all the word from pg. 1 of book 1 to pg. last of book last...these boxes are man made....

Okay everyone go to your Strong's and look up monergism or synergism...Okay what did you get? Oh you mean neither man made box (probably made by Calvinists) is there? Dag! Well we better get on it in the newest version/translation...

Paul

Non sequitur.
 
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Hammster

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Isolating one verse apart from how it is related to others does nothing. In many cases doing this has led to the formation of false doctrines and even entire denominations (Boston church of Christ hinges on Mark 16, the Word of faith movement on Mark 11, the UPC on Acts 2:38). Likewise we must view these passages as they are all the word of God but we must see them as they fit the whole, I cannot understand a gasoline engine by focusing only on the fan belt.

Arcoe's response was entirely relative because it adds data regarding the process that the passage in discussion actually indicates...the passage in discussion is not doubted or taken away from in any way by what he added...but if these other passages were not part of the whole, or are excluded from the discussion (thus creating a box which stacks the deck) one could make the passage in discussion mean that from the "begun" to the "finish" there is nothing else involved but we know that is not true.

Paul

But the verse is clear. What God starts He finishes. You and Arcoe are making it look like that only some of what God starts he finishes, and it all hinges in man. I don't see that in Paul's writing.
 
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harrisrose77

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Isolating one verse apart from how it is related to others does nothing. In many cases doing this has led to the formation of false doctrines and even entire denominations (Boston church of Christ hinges on Mark 16, the Word of faith movement on Mark 11, the UPC on Acts 2:38). Likewise we must view these passages as they are all the word of God but we must see them as they fit the whole, I cannot understand a gasoline engine by focusing only on the fan belt.

Arcoe's response was entirely relative because it adds data regarding the process that the passage in discussion actually indicates...the passage in discussion is not doubted or taken away from in any way by what he added...but if these other passages were not part of the whole, or are excluded from the discussion (thus creating a box which stacks the deck) one could make the passage in discussion mean that from the "begun" to the "finish" there is nothing else involved but we know that is not true.

Paul

Mmmm......like James 4:7.
Many leave out the 'Submit yourselves to God ', part, and recite the rest, ' ..resist the devil and He will flee'. Mmmm.... ^_^
 
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pshun2404

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True, I am not of Paul, or of Cephas, or of Apollos...but like Paul I am of Christ...and I am not what you define as monergist but absolutely believe what God starts He finishes but that does not exclude the conditions through which He has sovereignly chosen to make it happen. These are described throughout the scriptures as demanding man's appropriate response in the midst of this process. even Paul says how can they believe unless they hear and how can they hear unless they have been told..In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

I didn't say it Paul did...
 
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Hammster

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True, I am not of Paul, or of Cephas, or of Apollos...but like Paul I am of Christ...and I am not what you define as monergist but absolutely believe what God starts He finishes but that does not exclude the conditions through which He has sovereignly chosen to make it happen. These are described throughout the scriptures as demanding man's appropriate response in the midst of this process. even Paul says how can they believe unless they hear and how can they hear unless they have been told..In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

I didn't say it Paul did...

Nobody is denying man's response.
 
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M

MamaZ

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Yes WHEN is the key word...the word says this happens when they receive Him and to those who have believed...it does not say it happens so they will receive or to make them believe...

Paul
You cannot come to Him les you See Him.. One cannot even See Jesus as being Lord and Savior less God less God opens the heart to see with..
 
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Ignatius21

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The point is, if God starts it, He finishes it. That's the consistent position of monergists. It's far from the consistent view of synergists.

Consistent with what? And please don't say "the Bible." ;)

It seems that (forgive me) you are trying, in this post, to force people into proof-texting from this verse only. If someone tries to explain how it fits into their larger view, you say it's irrelevant, or off topic, or what not. But clearly this verse...or any other verse...is insufficient to establish monergism, synergism, or any other -ism. Of course what I'm saying here is clearly off topic...

Now, back to being consistent. I do grant that monergists are consistent in their interpretation of this verse within their framework. I do not agree that synergists are inconsistent.

What I said in my post way back in Page 1 of this thread, referencing the Incarnation, is quite relevant. The only way we know God is through the Son. The only way we know the Son is through the Incarnation. The only reason we can be saved is because of the Incarnation. The only reason we have any hope at all is because of the Incarnation.

I do not believe that the monergist position is consistent with the Incarnation, at least as it was historically understood and defined by the councils that Calvinists themselves generally claim to accept. (That would be councils 1-6, although some tend to ignore 5 and 6).

God "began" a good work in Christ. God completed that good work. The only reason we are saved by the work of Christ is...drumroll!...the Incarnation. Human and Divine were united in the one person of Christ. They cooperated perfectly. Each nature has its own will, and each will was free relative to the other (the whole point, basically, of the 6th Ecumenical Council). So every work of Christ was fully human and fully God. When God begins a good work in us (regeneration), we become part of the Body of Christ...drumroll...Incarnation!...thus his completing the good work in us in no way negates our own role in the process of salvation.

Whether or not we have any role to play in our regeneration is another issue too. I can see how the monergist position could be interpreted to be consistent with what I said above. But still I see no conflict with our own wills being involved even in that. Salvation has always been a human-divine cooperation. Really the matter shifts to the questions of "total depravity" and the like, which really do fall outside the bounds of this thread...although how one interprets this specific verse will completely depend on the position they already hold on other points (like man's will, depravity and the like).

Anyway, there ya' go. What I'm saying is inconsistent with the monergist position. It is consistent with the synergist position. So your statement that "it's the consistent position of monergists but not of synergists" is inaccurate. Each is consistent within its own understanding of the relationship between human and divine will.
 
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Ignatius21

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You cannot come to Him les you See Him.. One cannot even See Jesus as being Lord and Savior less God less God opens the heart to see with..

As I just mentioned a second ago in my other post...these discussions always and inevitably boil down to an argument over "total depravity" (or pick your term).
 
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Hammster

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Consistent with what? And please don't say "the Bible." ;)

It seems that (forgive me) you are trying, in this post, to force people into proof-texting from this verse only. If someone tries to explain how it fits into their larger view, you say it's irrelevant, or off topic, or what not. But clearly this verse...or any other verse...is insufficient to establish monergism, synergism, or any other -ism. Of course what I'm saying here is clearly off topic...

Now, back to being consistent. I do grant that monergists are consistent in their interpretation of this verse within their framework. I do not agree that synergists are inconsistent.

What I said in my post way back in Page 1 of this thread, referencing the Incarnation, is quite relevant. The only way we know God is through the Son. The only way we know the Son is through the Incarnation. The only reason we can be saved is because of the Incarnation. The only reason we have any hope at all is because of the Incarnation.

I do not believe that the monergist position is consistent with the Incarnation, at least as it was historically understood and defined by the councils that Calvinists themselves generally claim to accept. (That would be councils 1-6, although some tend to ignore 5 and 6).

God "began" a good work in Christ. God completed that good work. The only reason we are saved by the work of Christ is...drumroll!...the Incarnation. Human and Divine were united in the one person of Christ. They cooperated perfectly. Each nature has its own will, and each will was free relative to the other (the whole point, basically, of the 6th Ecumenical Council). So every work of Christ was fully human and fully God. When God begins a good work in us (regeneration), we become part of the Body of Christ...drumroll...Incarnation!...thus his completing the good work in us in no way negates our own role in the process of salvation.

Whether or not we have any role to play in our regeneration is another issue too. I can see how the monergist position could be interpreted to be consistent with what I said above. But still I see no conflict with our own wills being involved even in that. Salvation has always been a human-divine cooperation. Really the matter shifts to the questions of "total depravity" and the like, which really do fall outside the bounds of this thread...although how one interprets this specific verse will completely depend on the position they already hold on other points (like man's will, depravity and the like).

Anyway, there ya' go. What I'm saying is inconsistent with the monergist position. It is consistent with the synergist position. So your statement that "it's the consistent position of monergists but not of synergists" is inaccurate. Each is consistent within its own understanding of the relationship between human and divine will.

If the verse had said "he who began a good work will complete it", you might have a valid argument.
However, it doesn't say this.

I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6 HCSB)
 
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Hammster

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As I just mentioned a second ago in my other post...these discussions always and inevitably boil down to an argument over "total depravity" (or pick your term).

On that we agree. I've always said that if you truly want to "defeat Calvinism", start with depravity.
 
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Ignatius21

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So you don't believe that men are sinners and seperated from God?

Of course I believe that men are sinners and separated from God.

What I don't believe is that this is equal with the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity. :)
 
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Ignatius21

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If the verse had said "he who began a good work will complete it", you might have a valid argument.
However, it doesn't say this.

I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6 HCSB)

And........ya lost me.

First, I'm obviously paraphrasing. Second, unless "began" and "started" are vastly different, and "will complete it" is vastly different from "will carry it on to completion", then the verse does say what I said it says. "In you" is implied in my paraphrase :)

Second...you kind of skipped everything else I wrote. So I truly have no idea what you're responding to, or where your argument lies in this case. My argument is that it is fully consistent with the historic understanding of the Incarnation to assert that God can begin and complete a good work in us, himself, while still asserting that there is no conflict with our own participation in this working. Just a few verses later Paul states:

9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

We are to love, we are to discern, we are to be filled with the fruit of righteousness (our good works and obedience). This all implies action on our part. Thus our being filled with the fruit of righteousness is part of God's completion of the good work he began in us, "until the day of Christ" (when we are to be pure and blameless).

There is no conflict. 100% God. 100% man. 100% salvation. 100% incarnation.
 
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Hammster

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Maybe we are talking past each other.

When Paul says "in you", does that imply the Philippians (and by extension all believers), or something else?

(And I am not saying that we have no part. I included sanctification in the OP.)
 
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A New Dawn

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So I see you agree, it all depends upon man for God to finish what He started. If man fails to abide in the vine, God will cut him off from the vine, he will wither, be gathered, be thrown into the fire, and will be burned.

Sorry, you have to twist my words to get there. I was pointing out a logical inconsistency to your argument.
 
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