He who began a good work

[elman]

You frequently say "destroy". That word doesn't appear in the text.

As you and I have discussed. I see killing something as destroying it. In my vocabulary I have destroyed something if I have caused its death. So if I have caused the death of my soul, I have destroyed my soul.

 

[MamaZ]

Every soul sins.. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.. All have sinned.. Only one that didn't and He was God. Why do you believe this to be that scripture shows us that all have sinned?

 

[A New Dawn]

You could not find where it said the soul that sins, it shall die? You could not find where the son is not responsible for the sins of the father? Are you reading Ezekiel 18?

I was not arguing against that we are judged by our own sins and not someone elses, I was arguing that you are not taking the sin nature into account, which came from Adam. We are not judged for Adam's sin, but we do have a fallen nature which dictates how we will choose.

 

[elman]

I was not arguing against that we are judged by our own sins and not someone elses, I was arguing that you are not taking the sin nature into account, which came from Adam. We are not judged for Adam's sin, but we do have a fallen nature which dictates how we will choose.

No we do not sin because of Adam. We sin because we chose to not love as commanded to love. I am not taking the sin nature into account because it is a man made idea. Ezekiel says it is not our nature that causes us to turn to wickedness, it is us and if we do make that choice we die and will not live, but if we chose to turn to righteousness(also not caused by our sin nature) we will live and not die. Sounds like eternal life and salvation to me.

 

[Hammster]

No we do not sin because of Adam. We sin because we chose to not love as commanded to love. I am not taking the sin nature into account because it is a man made idea. Ezekiel says it is not our nature that causes us to turn to wickedness, it is us and if we do make that choice we die and will not live, but if we chose to turn to righteousness(also not caused by our sin nature) we will live and not die. Sounds like eternal life and salvation to me.

What's wrong with us that we ALL choose not to love?

 

[elman]

What's wrong with us that we ALL choose not to love?

Nothing is wrong with us. We are human beings and not equal to God. Some of us do chose to love some of the time.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing is wrong with us. We are human beings and not equal to God. Some of us do chose to love some of the time.

So there's some people who have never sinned?

 

[elman]

So there's some people who have never sinned?

You are well aware I never said that, but in fact babies have never sinned, so yes some of us have never sinned. The rest of us fall short. We are human and not equal to God who never falls short.

 

[Hammster]

You are well aware I never said that, but in fact babies have never sinned, so yes some of us have never sinned. The rest of us fall short. We are human and not equal to God who never falls short.

Why do we fall short?

 

[A New Dawn]

No we do not sin because of Adam. We sin because we chose to not love as commanded to love. I am not taking the sin nature into account because it is a man made idea. Ezekiel says it is not our nature that causes us to turn to wickedness, it is us and if we do make that choice we die and will not live, but if we chose to turn to righteousness(also not caused by our sin nature) we will live and not die. Sounds like eternal life and salvation to me.

So if there wasn't a fall and we all aren't being affected by a sinful nature, why were Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden and flaming cherubim stationed at the doorway? Something happened to make God take that action.

 

[elman]

Every soul sins.. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.. All have sinned.. Only one that didn't and He was God. Why do you believe this to be that scripture shows us that all have sinned?

Babies have a soul and they have not sinned and fallen short.

 

[elman]

Why do we fall short?

Babies do not fall short.

 

[MamaZ]

Babies have a soul and they have not sinned and fallen short.

Babies are conceived in sin. Not one man other than Christ is not conceived in sin. Sin dwells in every human being born of Adam.

 

[elman]

Babies are conceived in sin. Not one man other than Christ is not conceived in sin. Sin dwells in every human being born of Adam.

Not true. God does not create babies already condemned. I know David seemed to agree with you. David was wrong about that. Babies are spiritually alive. They have a soul. All sex is not sin either.

 

[Hammster]

Babies do not fall short.

Why do the rest of fall short?

 

[MamaZ]

Not true. God does not create babies already condemned. I know David seemed to agree with you. David was wrong about that. Babies are spiritually alive. They have a soul. All sex is not sin either.

Babies are born in the same original sin all humans are born in. What are you talking about all sex is not sin? I never even suggested that.

 

[Ignatius21]

Not true. God does not create babies already condemned. I know David seemed to agree with you. David was wrong about that. Babies are spiritually alive. They have a soul. All sex is not sin either.

David was wrong?

Are you referring to Augustine's idea that original sin is passed along by sex, because he thought all sex acts included lust and were therefore sinful?

(and I've only read that through 2nd-hand sources, of course, but I've read in several places that he did hold to a view like that).

I'm also not sure where the person you responded to ever suggested that sex was inherently sinful...

Do you believe that each person inherits at least a corruption, a bondage to this world, that causes each person to desire darkness rather than light?

 

[Ignatius21]

And to "A New Dawn": did I address your earlier question in http://www.christianforums.com/t7752639-9/#post63287986?

It got buried pretty quickly in the new argument over babies sinning

 

[A New Dawn]

So if there wasn't a fall and we all aren't being affected by a sinful nature, why were Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden and flaming cherubim stationed at the doorway? Something happened to make God take that action.

bumping for elman.

Either there was a fall, and we are all affected, or there wasn't, and we are actually all living in the Garden of Eden.

 

[sdowney717]

Let's have a look at these verses from John 15, and you tell me if man has no part in it, and if he does, then let's see if God does His part. I am going to put man's part in red, and God's part in blue.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

If a man (the branch) abides in Christ (the vine), the branch will bear much fruit. Bearing fruit is very much contingent upon man abiding in Christ. Therefore, man does his part, then God does His part.

Also, if a man abides in Christ (man's part), he can ask what he desires, and it shall be done to him (God's part).

We also have this, if a man does not abide in Christ (man not doing his part), he is cast out, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (God's part).

So I ask, how do you contend this is not talking about man doing his part, and then God doing His part? (Matthew 13:14)

How does this then preclude God's completing what He started in you?
It simply states if you dont abide your cast off as a dead branch.

The following are not possible
Did you abide once and then not abide?
Were you converted, a new creature in Christ and then suddenly by your actions you're a dead new creature not in Christ?

My view is you never were converted, you were a fraud, The word has many warnings about unbelieving lying hypocrites infiltrating the church, creeping in secretly, those who were turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Jude puts it well here regarding those as does Peter regarding the destiny of those who stumble over the cornerstone of Christ.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

The test is always belief, Belief then in a true follower means actions that are godly and which point them to eternal life. This is what is meant by being a faithful follower. Unfaithful followers are by nature unelect, dont abide in Christ and are cast offs.

They always were unsaved frauds, people who hung around the Christians, but not born again faithful followers. They can be deceived about their own salvation and they deceive others also.

The story Jesus told of the man who came to the wedding without wedding clothes on was one of those. That man was cast out into outer darkness. I mean how did he even get in? He must have known the people, but was not one of them.

How about 1 Peter 2

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]
8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Regarding the dead branches, well we were all grafted into the tree, so we were all once wild olive shoot branches, so we are grafted in because we believe. Paul says tremble, because if we don't believe we will be cast off again. But my point is the elect are faithful true followers who will continue in belief and not become unbelievers. So they will remain, abide and bear fruit. They are kept for salvation by the power of God and not for destruction. He is able to make all things conform to the purpose of His will.

The one who believe-unbelieve are cast off and are not elect. They never were elect, chosen of God.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!