He who began a good work

[Arcoe]

Surely you know that this isn't what Calvinists actually believe...surely...

I am just trying to show it is not monergistic as Calvinists would have us believe. I agree with you completely, God starts and completes salvation with the cooperation of man.

Once I portray someone who wants God to do it all, and let me be myself and live as I have always done, I get 'you need to believe and repent'. I am trying to show it is not all God without us doing our part. If man has any part, no matter how small, it ceases to monergistic.

 

[Arcoe]

According to the counter arguments I've seen on here, it appears that way. Take you, for instance. You believe salvation can be lost, correct?

Since salvation is a union with Christ, much like a marriage, yes, a man can turn away from the one with which he is in union. And then be cut off from that union by God Himself (John 15:6).

 

[Arcoe]

The point is, if God starts it, He finishes it. That's the consistent position of monergists. It's far from the consistent view of synergists.

I am a synergist, and I know God starts and finishes it. If God starts it, and man no longer wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will finish it by cutting him off from the branch to be thrown into the fire. If man wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will prune him to bear more fruit.

 

[Hammster]

Since salvation is a union with Christ, much like a marriage, yes, a man can turn away from the one with which he is in union. And then be cut off from that union by God Himself (John 15:6).

But that's the opposite of what the verse is saying. It doesn't say that as long as you do your part, God does His.

 

[Hammster]

I am a synergist, and I know God starts and finishes it. If God starts it, and man no longer wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will finish it by cutting him off from the branch to be thrown into the fire. If man wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will prune him to bear more fruit.

And again, you have to twist that verse to get it to even remotely resemble this assertion.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am a synergist, and I know God starts and finishes it. If God starts it, and man no longer wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will finish it by cutting him off from the branch to be thrown into the fire. If man wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will prune him to bear more fruit.

If God starts it, then God finishes it. If God starts it, and the man walks away, how can God finish it? According to the text, that can't happen.

 

[Arcoe]

But that's the opposite of what the verse is saying. It doesn't say that as long as you do your part, God does His.

Let's have a look at these verses from John 15, and you tell me if man has no part in it, and if he does, then let's see if God does His part. I am going to put man's part in red, and God's part in blue.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

If a man (the branch) abides in Christ (the vine), the branch will bear much fruit. Bearing fruit is very much contingent upon man abiding in Christ. Therefore, man does his part, then God does His part.

Also, if a man abides in Christ (man's part), he can ask what he desires, and it shall be done to him (God's part).

We also have this, if a man does not abide in Christ (man not doing his part), he is cast out, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (God's part).

So I ask, how do you contend this is not talking about man doing his part, and then God doing His part? (Matthew 13:14)

 

[Arcoe]

And again, you have to twist that verse to get it to even remotely resemble this assertion.

Really? Then please tell me why God casts someone out as a branch, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned? Is it not because man first removed himself from the vine?

 

[Arcoe]

If God starts it, then God finishes it. If God starts it, and the man walks away, how can God finish it? According to the text, that can't happen.

So I see you agree, it all depends upon man for God to finish what He started. If man fails to abide in the vine, God will cut him off from the vine, he will wither, be gathered, be thrown into the fire, and will be burned.

 

[truthinapologetics]

Interesting, particularly given the fact that the Biblical concept of "hope" is not the same as the contemporary Western view of something that is strongly desired in the absence of assurance (and often against likelihood) which you seem to be projecting upon the text. The author speaks in the strongest possible terms of confidence throughout the opening of his epistle.

We can argue about the nature of what work it is in view in the verse, but to relegate it to the level of wishful thinking on the part of the apostle I think does injustice to the text.

I never suggested it was "wishful thinking" or the "Western" view of confidence. Re-read what I suggested.

 

[Hammster]

Let's have a look at these verses from John 15, and you tell me if man has no part in it, and if he does, then let's see if God does His part. I am going to put man's part in red, and God's part in blue.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

If a man (the branch) abides in Christ (the vine), the branch will bear much fruit. Bearing fruit is very much contingent upon man abiding in Christ. Therefore, man does his part, then God does His part.

Also, if a man abides in Christ (man's part), he can ask what he desires, and it shall be done to him (God's part).

We also have this, if a man does not abide in Christ (man not doing his part), he is cast out, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (God's part).

So I ask, how do you contend this is not talking about man doing his part, and then God doing His part? (Matthew 13:14)

Um, we aren't talking about John 15.

 

[Hammster]

Really? Then please tell me why God casts someone out as a branch, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned? Is it not because man first removed himself from the vine?

That's not in the verse, or the passage, in discussion.

 

[Hammster]

So I see you agree, it all depends upon man for God to finish what He started. If man fails to abide in the vine, God will cut him off from the vine, he will wither, be gathered, be thrown into the fire, and will be burned.

I see you completely missed Dawn's point. I'll assume that it wasn't intentional.

 

[Arcoe]

That's not in the verse, or the passage, in discussion.

Let's see. Here are your words, when I mentioned John 15:6 - "But that's the opposite of what the verse is saying. It doesn't say that as long as you do your part, God does His."
So, I do believe we were talking about John 15. We have been talking about this chapter ever since you said the above.

 

[Arcoe]

I see you completely missed Dawn's point. I'll assume that it wasn't intentional.

And I see you missed the point in John 15.

 

[MamaZ]

I am just trying to show it is not monergistic as Calvinists would have us believe. I agree with you completely, God starts and completes salvation with the cooperation of man.

Once I portray someone who wants God to do it all, and let me be myself and live as I have always done, I get 'you need to believe and repent'. I am trying to show it is not all God without us doing our part. If man has any part, no matter how small, it ceases to monergistic.

If God does it all you won't be yourself and live as you have always done. For God puts His Spirit with in you and causes you to walk in His statutes..

24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God

 

[frumanchu]

I never suggested it was "wishful thinking" or the "Western" view of confidence. Re-read what I suggested.

You said, "Statements about having 'confidence' are more an expression of hope and desire, rather than objective declarations of truth."

You directly contrasted "hope and desire" with objective truth.

And I referenced the Western concept of "hope," not "confidence."

 

[pshun2404]

Okay. Welcome to Calvinism.

NOT! Been there done that and then I realized I was cutting out huge sections of scripture or re-interpreting then through a select set of others (not what God wanted me to do). Salvation is all of God, and I have explained and re-explained how that is not the same as the absolute determinism and ultimately double predestination as described by Johnny who came lately! But thanks for the strangely obvious attempt at a snare to re-ignite the fires of division. Herein we can all re-invent the proverbial war wheel again that later coming Johnny started 500 years ago (which has never ceased to be re-ignited over and over exhaustively since). Maybe one day we all can follow Johnny and renew his purging (after all it is God's will whatever we do).

Since this kind of dialogue is what the devil intended we might as well engage it, right? I mean it is all God's will, even accusation of the brethren and division of the unity of the Holy Spirit and so on...is it not? Even every work of the devil (which Christ came to destroy) is the work of God and absolutely determined according to His will and good pleasure (God forbid! Father forgive them as they know not what they do.)

In His name

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

The point is, if God starts it, He finishes it. That's the consistent position of monergists. It's far from the consistent view of synergists.

monergist, synergist, blah, blah, blah...what is really important is to include all the Lord has given us to understand this process and that is all the word from pg. 1 of book 1 to pg. last of book last...these boxes are man made....

Okay everyone go to your Strong's and look up monergism or synergism...Okay what did you get? Oh you mean neither man made box (probably made by Calvinists) is there? Dag! Well we better get on it in the newest version/translation...

Paul

 

[nobdysfool]

monergist, synergist, blah, blah, blah...what is really important is to include all the Lord has given us to understand this process and that is all the word from pg. 1 of book 1 to pg. last of book last...these boxes are man made....

Okay everyone go to your Strong's and look up monergism or synergism...Okay what did you get? Oh you mean neither man made box (probably made by Calvinists) is there? Dag! Well we better get on it in the newest version/translation...

Paul

Paul, please stop the veiled Calvinist bashing. It's not welcome here. Enough!