He wants EVERYONE saved?

[Hentenza]

Predestination is the main reason I chose to be Baptist rather than Presbyterian. I just cannot believe that God would give one person the nod, and reject another without giving them a chance. I believe even Hitler had an opportunity to accept Christ at one time. God is nothing but fair and good. It is true that he knows the choices each person will make regarding rejecting or accepting Christ, but he would not be a fair and just God if he didn't allow each person to make that choice.

I've seen many examples of people who were absolutely harried by the Holy Spirit - so much so that some decided to never darken the doors of a church again. I know for a fact that a few of these never accepted Christ before death. But they were given a chance! I saw the squirming, I watched them hang on to the back of the pew with all their strength, and I could see the battle going on inside them. I prayed for them. And then they were killed in a car wreck.

I do not believe in predestination. I believe that if God could have one wish, it would be that everyone would accept salvation freely and willingly. But God isn't going to make up our minds for us. We have free-will. He knows every time a baby is born whether or not that baby will go on to accept Christ or not. But he does NOT withhold the freedom to choose from that person. God is a fair, just, and perfect God. He could not be God otherwise.

What does these verses mean to you?

Romans 8
28 And we know that [k]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


Eph. 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[SeventhValley]

Romans 8 he predestined because he foreknew not foreknew because he predestined. Plus Paul, John,and Peter all state God wants all to be saved.

So the conclusion is God draws all people to himself but foreknew who would freely reject God. Making man evil but not God. In predestination without foreknowledge evil cannot exist since all do God's will.

 

[BBAS 64]

Predestination is the main reason I chose to be Baptist rather than Presbyterian. I just cannot believe that God would give one person the nod, and reject another without giving them a chance. I believe even Hitler had an opportunity to accept Christ at one time. God is nothing but fair and good. It is true that he knows the choices each person will make regarding rejecting or accepting Christ, but he would not be a fair and just God if he didn't allow each person to make that choice.

I've seen many examples of people who were absolutely harried by the Holy Spirit - so much so that some decided to never darken the doors of a church again. I know for a fact that a few of these never accepted Christ before death. But they were given a chance! I saw the squirming, I watched them hang on to the back of the pew with all their strength, and I could see the battle going on inside them. I prayed for them. And then they were killed in a car wreck.

I do not believe in predestination. I believe that if God could have one wish, it would be that everyone would accept salvation freely and willingly. But God isn't going to make up our minds for us. We have free-will. He knows every time a baby is born whether or not that baby will go on to accept Christ or not. But he does NOT withhold the freedom to choose from that person. God is a fair, just, and perfect God. He could not be God otherwise.

Good Day,

Being a Baptist does not solve the issue the issue you can not escape is the writting contained with in scripture. Have you read the 1689 baptist confession of Faith, being a baptist does not solve the problem.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Romans 8 he predestined because he foreknew not foreknew because he predestined. Plus Paul, John,and Peter all state God wants all to be saved.

So the conclusion is God draws all people to himself but foreknew who would freely reject God. Making man evil but not God. In predestination without foreknowledge evil cannot exist since all do God's will.

Good Day, Seventh

More assertions... wow.

Ok Romans 8 and your baseless conclusion because Romans 8 does not ven come close.

Where does Romans 8 say "but foreknew who would freely reject " the truth is it does not say that at all...

it says those (pronoun) ( I know you hate Grammer) he (God) forknew (verb) he predestined (verb) he ... (God)....

Not a thing about man doing not doing, rejecting or not rejecting.... you are adding to the text to pove a point that the text does not support and is unbiblical for that reason.

In Him,

Bill

 

[RisingSpirit]

One can make a case for Calvinism and Arminianism in the scriptures. This is one of the mysteries of the Bible. Hank Hannegraf once said that the two views are liked two parallel lines going off in the distance, but never meeting.

Would they meet in heaven?

 

[RisingSpirit]

God has always known who will reject Him.

God has always known all will reject Him.

 

[Skala]

Romans 8 he predestined because he foreknew not foreknew because he predestined. Plus Paul, John,and Peter all state God wants all to be saved.

So the conclusion is God draws all people to himself but foreknew who would freely reject God. Making man evil but not God. In predestination without foreknowledge evil cannot exist since all do God's will.

Did you notice that the grammatical object of God's foreknowledge in Romans 8 is people, not their actions/faith/obedience etc?

It doesn't say that God foresaw our faith and then predestined us in that basis. You have to read extra information into the text to come to that conclusion.

When God knows people it refers to intimacy ("The Lord knows those who are His"..."depart from me, I never knew you"), it doesn't mean passive intelligence about their actions.

 

[Skala]

Predestination is the main reason I chose to be Baptist rather than Presbyterian.

From the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
==================

I don't think you make a very good Baptist, sisgood.

 

[RisingSpirit]

... I don't think you make a very good Baptist, sisgood....

Who arrived first , the general baptist or the Particular Baptist?

 

[SeventhValley]

From the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
==================

I don't think you make a very good Baptist, sisgood.

That is only the Particular Baptist confession.

You still have the Six principle Baptists,General Baptists,Free Will Baptists,Missionary Baptists and other Baptist churhes throughout history that never held to that.

You can only say she is not a good "Particular Baptist"(Calvinist Baptist) and I doubt she would want to be one

 

[SeventhValley]

Who arrived first , the general baptist or the Particular Baptist?

Both arrived in America at the same time as many Baptist Churches were mixed.

The First Baptist church in America had a Calvinist preacher but a Arminian congregation who replaced him.

The first Baptist association in America was Arminian.

 

[Hentenza]

Romans 8 he predestined because he foreknew not foreknew because he predestined.

This does not follow. God did predestine because He foreknew. By necessity, He needs to know in order to predestine.

Plus Paul, John,and Peter all state God wants all to be saved.

This speaks to God's desires not to God's decree. God does not fail. If God decreed that all would be saved then all would but we know from scripture that many won't be saved.

So the conclusion is God draws all people to himself but foreknew who would freely reject God. Making man evil but not God. In predestination without foreknowledge evil cannot exist since all do God's will.

Foreknowledge is what makes predestination possible. God is all knowing. Foreknowledge merely means that He knows all.

 

[Skala]

That is only the Particular Baptist confession.

You still have the Six principle Baptists,General Baptists,Free Will Baptists,Missionary Baptists and other Baptist churhes throughout history that never held to that.

You can only say she is not a good "Particular Baptist"(Calvinist Baptist) and I doubt she would want to be one

Well she didn't specify did she?

Further, even the Baptist Faith and Message affirms monergistic/Calvinistic soteriology:

Salvation
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

God's Purpose of Grace
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

The way I see it, if you're an Arminian/Wesleyan Baptist, you're really just a Methodist. Baptists are historically Calvinistic.

 

[Skala]

Foreknowledge is what makes predestination possible. God is all knowing. Foreknowledge merely means that He knows all.

I slightly disagree.

Foreknowledge is not synonymous with omniscience (knowing all)

Foreknowledge means God knows before hand.

When people are the object of God's knowledge, it refers to an intimate knowing the person.

When Rom 8 says that God foreknew us and then predestined us, it doesn't mean he foresaw our actions (our actions are not the object of God's knowledge), it means it was a choice on God's part to know us.

 

[SeventhValley]

Well she didn't specify did she?

Further, even the Baptist Faith and Message affirms monergistic/Calvinistic soteriology:

Salvation
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

God's Purpose of Grace
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

The way I see it, if you're an Arminian/Wesleyan Baptist, you're really just a Methodist. Baptists are historically Calvinistic.

From the Baptist Faith and Message


"
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love."

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour."

This is a Arminian statement. A Calvinist cannot confirim the BF&M.

The SBC commitiee on Calvinism said

"We affirm that the Gospel is to be made known freely to all in the good faith offer that if anyone confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes in his heart that God has raised Christ from the dead, he will be saved."

"We affirm that salvation involves the conversion of the sinner, whereby the sinner consciously clings to Christ by faith, repents of sin, believes the promises of the Gospel, and publicly professes faith in Christ. We affirm the necessity of conversion and the truth that conversion involves the will of the believer as well as the will of God."

This is all Arminian not Calvinist.

 

[Skala]

From the Baptist Faith and Message


"
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love."

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour."

This is a Arminian statement. A Calvinist cannot confirim the BF&M.

The SBC commitiee on Calvinism said

"We affirm that the Gospel is to be made known freely to all in the good faith offer that if anyone confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes in his heart that God has raised Christ from the dead, he will be saved."

"We affirm that salvation involves the conversion of the sinner, whereby the sinner consciously clings to Christ by faith, repents of sin, believes the promises of the Gospel, and publicly professes faith in Christ. We affirm the necessity of conversion and the truth that conversion involves the will of the believer as well as the will of God."

This is all Arminian not Calvinist.

Sorry bro but none of that stuff you quoted is non-Calvinistic or pro-Arminian. It describes both soteriologies, not just one or the other.

However, stating emphatically that regeneration leads to and causes faith is in fact a denial of Arminianism and an affirmation of Calvinism. So you'll have to deal with that.

 

[SeventhValley]

Foreknowledge is what makes predestination possible. God is all knowing. Foreknowledge merely means that He knows all.

 

[SeventhValley]

However, stating emphatically that regeneration leads to and causes faith is in fact a denial of Arminianism and an affirmation of Calvinism. So you'll have to deal with that.

Did you read the BF&M?

"It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

This is only Arminian.

 

[Skala]

Did you read the BF&M?

"It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

This is only Arminian.

How? That description is 100% pure Calvinism and a denial of Arminianism.

Regeneration is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit, to which the sinner responds in repentance and faith.

That's Calvinism, not Arminianism. Arminianism says that faith leads to/results in regeneration. This statement is saying that regeneration leads to/results in faith.

 

[98cwitr]

How? That description is 100% pure Calvinism and a denial of Arminianism.

Regeneration is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit, to which the sinner responds in repentance and faith.

That's Calvinism, not Arminianism. Arminianism says that faith leads to/results in regeneration. This statement is saying that regeneration leads to/results in faith.

Amen brother...it's the Holy Spirit doing the conversion...not a person's "free will choice." The heart responses as its new nature compels.