He wants EVERYONE saved?

[98cwitr]

Is eternal disappointment God's own reality?

In Him,

Bill

Now that is a profound question....

 

[SeventhValley]

Is eternal disappointment God's own reality?

No, becuase having beings that can reject him is God's will.

 

[Hentenza]

No, becuase having beings that can reject him is God's will.

God has always known who will reject Him.

 

[BBAS 64]

No, becuase having beings that can reject him is God's will.

Good Day,

Again that is an assertion if one thinks they are out side of God's control they would be mistaken...... I call as a witness Jona

Go to Niniva
NO, I am jumping on a ship going the other way
No GO Jona
No going on a ship
Ok I am sending a whale

Clearly a battle of will, who wins?

I am sure the last thing Jona desired was to jump back in the water, God wins jona is left unhappy (too BAD) God does what he wills with his creation. He learned and God gets the Glory, his will be dammed.


God desires all to be saved , clearly all are not so God is disapointed his desires are not achived, he settles for what he gets....

That is not a God that scripture proves.

In Him,

Bill

 

[98cwitr]

God has always known who will reject Him.

...and creates them anyway

 

[Hentenza]

...and creates them anyway

Yep. He also allows evil so that we can know what good is.

 

[BBAS 64]

...and creates them anyway

Yes he does... but they serve his will as well, just like the vessel created for destruction. He knows they will never be saved, and that suits him just fine, he does not call them they are not given by the Father to the Son for the purpose of being rasied up on the last day.

 

[MrJim]

Yep. He also allows evil so that we can know what good is.

That's a sad statement if I ponder on it long enough~lives created for a few dozen years and predestined for eternal torture and damnation to show what is "good"~~if that is your "God" and His idea of "good" I'll take hell every time.

 

[BBAS 64]

That's a sad statement if I ponder on it long enough~lives created for a few dozen years and predestined for eternal torture and damnation to show what is "good"~~if that is your "God" and His idea of "good" I'll take hell every time.

Good Day, Jim

"predestined for eternal hell" not sure where that comes from...

Created to to serve the purposes and will of the creator is that better?

Love your sin, have a heart centered on sin and you get that every time you do not have a choice. simply (cause and effect)


In Him,

Bill

 

[MrJim]

Good Day, Jim

"predestined for eternal hell" not sure where that comes from...

Created to to serve the purposes and will of the creator is that better?

Love your sin, have a heart centered on sin and you get that every time you do not have a choice. simply (cause and effect)


In Him,

Bill

If you are not the predestined elect you are the predestined damned~Calvinists try to put a pleasant theological "spin" on things the that's the bottom line...that's where it "comes from".

I was a converted Calvinist for a decade...quite the fervent convert I was

 

[Hentenza]

That's a sad statement if I ponder on it long enough~lives created for a few dozen years and predestined for eternal torture and damnation to show what is "good"~~if that is your "God" and His idea of "good" I'll take hell every time.

Hi Jim,

Predestination is biblical. Secondly, are you saying that God does not have perfect knowledge? Is He waiting for you to make your decision so that He can then know?

We can argue contingency if you wish.

 

[98cwitr]

Yep. He also allows evil so that we can know what good is.

 

[MrJim]

Hi Jim,

Predestination is biblical. Secondly, are you saying that God does not have perfect knowledge? Is He waiting for you to make your decision so that He can then know?

We can argue contingency if you wish.

Ain't rearguing Calvinism~~half the threads in this forum do that...only repeating the bottom line for the sake of lurkers:

That's a sad statement if I ponder on it long enough~lives created for a few dozen years and predestined for eternal torture and damnation to show what is "good"~~if that is your "God" and His idea of "good" I'll take hell every time.

If you are not the predestined elect you are the predestined damned

Sorry Henry I've long since placed Calvinists into "Other" category with Mormons & Jehovah's Witnesses. Am I wrong in doing so? I learned this from none other than Dr. John Gerstner. I was at a Reformed conference in Johnstown PA back in the 90/s~~He along with JI Packer & Michael Horton were speakers there. At an Q&A Gerstner was asked about those that do not follow Reformed teaching. He said while he would recommend grace towards those simply ignorant of the "truth", that those knowingly being informed and then rejecting Reformed teaching are believing "another gospel" and are "anathema".

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

We are...incompatible...for both sides have quite different views of God and understandings of Scriptures..there is a "great gulf fixed"...and to pretend there is commonality and fellowship is pretense of the highest degree.

 

[sisgood]

Predestination is the main reason I chose to be Baptist rather than Presbyterian. I just cannot believe that God would give one person the nod, and reject another without giving them a chance. I believe even Hitler had an opportunity to accept Christ at one time. God is nothing but fair and good. It is true that he knows the choices each person will make regarding rejecting or accepting Christ, but he would not be a fair and just God if he didn't allow each person to make that choice.

I've seen many examples of people who were absolutely harried by the Holy Spirit - so much so that some decided to never darken the doors of a church again. I know for a fact that a few of these never accepted Christ before death. But they were given a chance! I saw the squirming, I watched them hang on to the back of the pew with all their strength, and I could see the battle going on inside them. I prayed for them. And then they were killed in a car wreck.

I do not believe in predestination. I believe that if God could have one wish, it would be that everyone would accept salvation freely and willingly. But God isn't going to make up our minds for us. We have free-will. He knows every time a baby is born whether or not that baby will go on to accept Christ or not. But he does NOT withhold the freedom to choose from that person. God is a fair, just, and perfect God. He could not be God otherwise.

 

[Skala]

Jim, thanks for demonstrating you have no idea what Calvinism is.

 

[Skala]

Predestination is the main reason I chose to be Baptist rather than Presbyterian. I just cannot believe that God would give one person the nod, and reject another without giving them a chance.

Two "races" fell into sin: humans and angels

God didn't give fallen angels a chance. He didn't design a salvation/redemption plan for angels.

Second, God doesn't owe anyone a "chance" to escape punishment. To do so would be pure mercy on God's part, but it is not required and God is not obligated to do so.

It is perfectly just and fine to let a criminal get the punishment he deserves without first giving him an opportunity to escape his judgement.

Where did you get the idea that a "chance" is mandatory in order for God to be just?

If God didn't give a single person a chance to be saved, but sent us all to hell for our sins, he would still be 100% just and worthy of worship. One step further, if God decided to save just one single person out of the entire human race, but let everyone else perish for their sins, he would still be just and worthy of worship. In saving the one person, he has been exceedingly gracious, because nobody deserves to be saved!

Thankfully, God has chosen to save billions and billions of people, but still, that's not good enough for you?

I believe even Hitler had an opportunity to accept Christ at one time. God is nothing but fair and good. It is true that he knows the choices each person will make regarding rejecting or accepting Christ, but he would not be a fair and just God if he didn't allow each person to make that choice.

If you take seriously the Bible's description of fallen man's attitude towards God, if God had merely "gave men a chance" to make the right decision, every single person would end up in hell because nobody would make the right decision.

We are saved by grace, not by a decision. We are saved because the Holy Spirit resurrects us from spiritual deadness and removes the blindfolds from our eyes.

I've seen many examples of people who were absolutely harried by the Holy Spirit - so much so that some decided to never darken the doors of a church again. I know for a fact that a few of these never accepted Christ before death. But they were given a chance! I saw the squirming, I watched them hang on to the back of the pew with all their strength, and I could see the battle going on inside them. I prayed for them. And then they were killed in a car wreck.

The fact remains they never wanted to come to Jesus, or they would have. A lot of good their "chance" did, right? Merely giving someone a chance doesn't automatically give them a desire to come to Jesus and repent of sins. We must be converted by the Holy Spirit in order for those things to be a possibility.

I do not believe in predestination.

So do you rip out of your Bible all of those verses that talk about predestination? Rather than dismissing a Biblical concept altogether because it is not emotionally satisfying to you, (that is making your own subjective feelings the litmus test for what is true or not) it seems better to try to learn what the Bible says about the topic.

I believe that if God could have one wish, it would be that everyone would accept salvation freely and willingly

Then why didn't God only create those people he foreknew would willingly believe? That way, he'd have an entire human race of people who were saved. Nobody in hell!

But God isn't going to make up our minds for us.

If I'm unconscious and not breathing, I hope somebody takes it upon themselves to give me CPR and resuscitate me and save my life, rather than waiting around for my cooperation or permission. Wouldn't you?

And what do you know, that's exactly how the Bible describes our salvation. It says we were dead, and God made us alive. Aren't you glad He did that for you? Wasn't that very gracious of Him?

We have free-will.

What do you mean by "free will"? It has to be carefully defined. Can you prove it from the Bible?

He knows every time a baby is born whether or not that baby will go on to accept Christ or not. But he does NOT withhold the freedom to choose from that person. God is a fair, just, and perfect God. He could not be God otherwise.

If he wanted everyone in heaven, why does he still decide to create those people who He knows will ultimately end up in hell? He could have simply looked into the future to see who would believe in Jesus, and chosen to only allow those people to be conceived. Boom, nobody goes to hell.

If little old me can figure this out, don't you think God can?

It's better to simply let the Bible teach you on this topic:

(Prov 16:4)The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Rom 8:30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

That's just an small sampling of Bible verses that speak about predestination (which you said you didn't believe...) and God creating everything "for its purpose" (including the wicked)

 

[MrJim]

Jim, thanks for demonstrating you have no idea what Calvinism is.

Stripping it down to the bare essentials often reveals this attitude

 

[Skala]

Stripping it down to the bare essentials often reveals this attitude

Can you strip it down without it becoming a strawman?

By default, since all men are sinners, everyone is predestined for damnation. That's when God's grace steps in and saves undeserving sinners.

Why is my "stripped down" description more accurate than yours? Oh that's right, because your goal was to use pejorative language to make it look bad, not be accurate.

 

[FredVB]

I can see that Yahweh God is not limited in his grace, and so it is understood correctly that he is not willing that any should perish, so all have a chance. Not all respond as they should, and as there is not contradiction it must be understood that with those who will never be reconciled with him, those he would permit to fall for a strong delusion.

 

[Skala]

I can see that Yahweh God is not limited in his grace, and so it is understood correctly that he is not willing that any should perish, so all have a chance. Not all respond as they should, and as there is not contradiction it must be understood that with those who will never be reconciled with him, those he would permit to fall for a strong delusion.

It is becoming apparent that some people in this thread are actually taking an honest, close look at the grammar and pronouns of 2 Peter 3:9, and doing actual exegesis, whereas others just assume the meaning despite all the evidence to the contrary.