He wants EVERYONE saved?

[MoreCoffee]

Both are sinners. One has been regenerated. One is repentant. One is being confirmed into the image of Christ. One has a righteousness that's not his own.

Any change for good (God's glory) is 100% from God.

I see, is saint Paul right when he says of God that "he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things"? (Acts 17:25)

If he is right then is it not true of the saint as well as of the sinner that everything he has and every ability that is his comes from God?

 

[Hammster]

I see, is saint Paul right when he says of God that "he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things"? (Acts 17:25)

If he is right then is it not true of the saint as well as of the sinner that everything he has and every ability that is his comes from God?

Sure, I'll go with that. But the next question should be, can man please God with a heart of stone? If so, why would we need a heart of flesh?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sure, I'll go with that. But the next question should be, can man please God with a heart of stone? If so, why would we need a heart of flesh?

That's a good question but it was next on my list. I am not a Calvinist by theology and I am not an Arminian by theology. To me both kinds of theology ask questions about which holy scripture doesn't give a definitive answer. It is true that every good gift comes from God. It is also true that no man (or woman, I use the term man inclusively quite often) can serve God in his own strength because even his own strength is a gift from God and not something he has independently from God. But in matters of faith and salvation it is assuredly true that God alone gives the grace to bring a soul to life in union with Christ. That seems sufficient to me as an answer to your question since the heart of stone that is replaced by a heart of flesh is a grace from God given to his people. It is not because they earned it or merited it or in any other way achieved it for themselves. Nevertheless the wicked are wicked because it is what they want and the good are good because it is what they want - how they come to want these things is not spelled out, we can hazard an opinion that it is from God but since everything is from God I do not see that hazarding that opinion advances one's understanding of the questions at the heart of Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[Hammster]

That's a good question but it was next on my list. I am not a Calvinist by theology and I am not an Arminian by theology. To me both kinds of theology ask questions about which holy scripture doesn't give a definitive answer. It is true that every good gift comes from God. It is also true that no man (or woman, I use the term man inclusively quite often) can serve God in his own strength because even his own strength is a gift from God and not something he has independently from God. But in matters of faith and salvation it is assuredly true that God alone gives the grace to bring a soul to life in union with Christ. That seems sufficient to me as an answer to your question since the heart of stone that is replaced by a heart of flesh is a grace from God given to his people. It is not because they earned it or merited it or in any other way achieved it for themselves. Nevertheless the wicked are wicked because it is what they want and the good are good because it is what they want - how they come to want these things is not spelled out, we can hazard an opinion that it is from God but since everything is from God I do not see that hazarding that opinion advances one's understanding of the questions at the heart of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Okay. You say that a man is good because he wants to be good. Then what is the necessity of regeneration?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay. You say that a man is good because he wants to be good. Then what is the necessity of regeneration?

The Lord Jesus Christ explained it to saint Nicodemus while he was still the teacher of Israel. The Lord said, "Most truly I say to you, unless one is born from water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" so it appears that God is the one who gives both the water and the Spirit by means of which one is born from above. One cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born from above. Saint Paul explains the nature of the birth in these words:

(Romans 6:3-11) . . .do you not know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the cross along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from his sin. 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but living to God by Christ Jesus.​

So one must be born from above by water and Spirit to see the kingdom of God and the birth is by baptism and it leads to resurrection life after death to sin.

 

[Hammster]

The Lord Jesus Christ explained it to saint Nicodemus while he was still the teacher of Israel. The Lord said, "Most truly I say to you, unless one is born from water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" so it appears that God is the one who gives both the water and the Spirit by means of which one is born from above. One cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born from above. Saint Paul explains the nature of the birth in these words:

(Romans 6:3-11) . . .do you not know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the cross along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from his sin. 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but living to God by Christ Jesus.​

So one must be born from above by water and Spirit to see the kingdom of God and the birth is by baptism and it leads to resurrection life after death to sin.

Just so I'm clear, you don't see any benefit to regeneration in this life. Is that correct?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Lord Jesus Christ explained it to saint Nicodemus while he was still the teacher of Israel. The Lord said, "Most truly I say to you, unless one is born from water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" so it appears that God is the one who gives both the water and the Spirit by means of which one is born from above. One cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born from above. Saint Paul explains the nature of the birth in these words:

(Romans 6:3-11) . . .do you not know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the cross along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from his sin. 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but living to God by Christ Jesus.​

So one must be born from above by water and Spirit to see the kingdom of God and the birth is by baptism and it leads to resurrection life after death to sin.

Just so I'm clear, you don't see any benefit to regeneration in this life. Is that correct?

On the contrary. I believe that being born from above is of great benefit in this life and the next.

 

[Hammster]

On the contrary. I believe that being born from above is of great benefit in this life and the next.

What is the benefit in this life?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is the benefit in this life?

Communion with Jesus Christ.

Since holy scripture explicitly tells everybody that God wants everybody to be saved isn't the question in the thread's title answered by holy scripture?

Consider these words: (1 Timothy 2:3, 4) This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour, God, whose will is that all people should be saved and come to know the truth.

 

[Hammster]

Communion with Jesus Christ.

Since holy scripture explicitly tells everybody that God wants everybody to be saved isn't the question in the thread's title answered by holy scripture?

Consider these words: (1 Timothy 2:3, 4) This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour, God, whose will is that all people should be saved and come to know the truth.

But you don't think it's necessary to be born again in order to do things that glorify Christ, correct?

 

[MoreCoffee]

But you don't think it's necessary to be born again in order to do things that glorify Christ, correct?

Did you miss the scripture passage I quoted? It says: (Romans 6:3-11) . . .do you not know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the cross along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from his sin. 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but living to God by Christ Jesus.

Isn't that telling the whole world that being born from above by baptism is necessary for living the resurrection life of union with Christ?

 

[Hammster]

Did you miss the scripture passage I quoted? It says: (Romans 6:3-11) . . .do you not know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the cross along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from his sin. 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but living to God by Christ Jesus.

Isn't that telling the whole world that being born from above by baptism is necessary for living the resurrection life of union with Christ?

Just trying to clarify. Can a person do anything to glorify God apart from regeneration?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just trying to clarify. Can a person do anything to glorify God apart from regeneration?

What does holy scripture say? Let it be the guide and provide the answer.

Do you think that David the psalmist was regenerate?

Psalms 86:1, 12 A Prayer of David. ... I give thanks to thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify thy name for ever.

David intended to glorify God, did he do it?

 

[Hammster]

What does holy scripture say? Let it be the guide and provide the answer.

Do you think that David the psalmist was regenerate?

Psalms 86:1, 12 A Prayer of David. ... I give thanks to thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify thy name for ever.

David intended to glorify God, did he do it?

I do have scripture as my guide:

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:7-11

It appears that the unregenerate cannot please God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do have scripture as my guide:

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:7-11

It appears that the unregenerate cannot please God.

The mind set on the things of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Skala]

I do have scripture as my guide:

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:7-11

It appears that the unregenerate cannot please God.

It does appear that way, thank you. I will submit to the Bible on this issue.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Romans chapter eight verses one to seven form a paragraph in many translations and in some verses one to thirteen form a paragraph. It may be helpful to read the passage in its paragraph so that its immediate context can be ascertained.

(Romans 8:1-13) 8:1 Therefore, those in Christ Jesus have no condemnation. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, on the things of the Spirit. 6 For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the Spirit means life and peace; 7 because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the Spirit, if God’s Spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s Spirit, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If, now, the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit that resides in you. 12 So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live.​

 

[MoreCoffee]

In its immediate context Romans 8:1-13 is about sanctification in the Christian life and its contrast with living according to one's natural (or fleshly) desires. I am not so sure that it is talking about a contrast between those who are born from above and those who are not. But maybe there is an element of that in it.

You didn't respond the my question about David and the psalm I quoted from which dealt with the matter of glorying God.

What does holy scripture say? Let it be the guide and provide the answer.

Do you think that David the psalmist was regenerate?

Psalms 86:1, 12 A Prayer of David. ... I give thanks to thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify thy name for ever.

David intended to glorify God, did he do it?

 

[Hammster]

In its immediate context Romans 8:1-13 is about sanctification in the Christian life and its contrast with living according to one's natural (or fleshly) desires. I am not so sure that it is talking about a contrast between those who are born from above and those who are not. But maybe there is an element of that in it.

You didn't respond the my question about David and the psalm I quoted from which dealt with the matter of glorying God.

I think the element is there. I think there's a contrast between those outside of Christ and those in Christ. I think that element runs all through the first 11 chapters of Romans.

 

[Hammster]

What does holy scripture say? Let it be the guide and provide the answer.

Do you think that David the psalmist was regenerate?

Psalms 86:1, 12 A Prayer of David. ... I give thanks to thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify thy name for ever.

David intended to glorify God, did he do it?

In this Psalm?