He wants EVERYONE saved?

[MoreCoffee]

God gives grace to all as he makes the sun shine and the rain fall and crops grow for all. Yet some resent God for all that. Isn't what the Lord said in John chapter three explanation enough for you?

 

[Hammster]

God gives grace to all as he makes the sun shine and the rain fall and crops grow for all. Yet some resent God for all that. Isn't what the Lord said in John chapter three explanation enough for you?

Ah. So there's something other than grace which dictates why some believe.


So those who are saved are those who receive grade AND don't resent God for sun and rain and crops.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah. So there's something other than grace which dictates why some believe.


So those who are saved are those who receive grade AND don't resent God for sun and rain and crops.

Sounds like a theory to me, but if you want a theory then by all means create one.

Isn't John chapter three enough?

 

[98cwitr]

John chapter 3 also talks about Rebirth via the Spirit and those who do not believe already being condemned. Can a person be rewarded this Rebirth by mustering up enough faith and doing good works? This convo can boil down to asking the following: Does faith come from God, or is it self-manifested?

 

[FredVB]

I had answered what I saw for a question. But if a question was being asked and answer to it is desired that isn't provided, I don't mind being asked that, to answer. My position is that Yahweh God desired with the eternal plan for how it could be that provision for all to be saved would be available. God is just and gives just consequence for all of sin. God is also gracious, so that any might see enough to respond to God on God's terms, those that respond for that at all God gives more to know, and this works best with believers, such as any of us, led to share more fully God's revelation with the gospel of salvation from God through Christ. But there are many who will not come to responding to God that way, for their own interest in what they would pursue.

So on Monday, Bob doesn't believe the gospel. On Tuesday, he believes. That is because of God's graciousness?

I looks to me like I was answering that. There was a long string of posts to get to what you were really getting at. One day, one doesn't believe, on another day, which would on some day would mean the next, one does believe. Is it from Yahweh God's grace? Yes, the Bible clearly shows that. Even if one was sure before that it was wrong, God can and does use circumstances to turn one around. I know of accounts like that, and Paul in the Bible is a clear example of such a thing. Is there something more besides grace? Yes, and I have been saying so. I have not said the grace is irresistible, and I don't see from any scriptures that it would be. It requires response of faith, and that is enabled from God, but it is a willing response. Some don't respond that way. Why? Such will give their own reasons, but I would think it often involves stubbornness, desires for what is sin that there won't be repentance to, and likely often self-delusion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

John chapter 3 also talks about Rebirth via the Spirit and those who do not believe already being condemned. Can a person be rewarded this Rebirth by mustering up enough faith and doing good works? This convo can boil down to asking the following: Does faith come from God, or is it self-manifested?

John chapter three also tells why people do not believe - it's because they do wicked things and do not want to come into the light because what they do is wicked.

John 3:17-21 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.​

Grace is given to all yet not all receive the benefits because some want wickedness rather than godliness.

 

[98cwitr]

John chapter three also tells why people do not believe - it's because they do wicked things and do not want to come into the light because what they do is wicked.

John 3:17-21 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.​

Grace is given to all yet not all receive the benefits because some want wickedness rather than godliness.

And why is that?

 

[MoreCoffee]

[/b]

And why is that?

Why? John doesn't say why they prefer wickedness, does he need to? The fact is that they do.

 

[98cwitr]

He might not need to, but we need not only to ask the question, but attempt to find an answer as well, so that we may understand the nature of man. Check out Luke 6:45 and 1 Peter 2:8. Let me know what you think

 

[Avid]

He might not need to, but we need not only to ask the question, but attempt to find an answer as well, so that we may understand the nature of man. Check out Luke 6:45 and 1 Peter 2:8. Let me know what you think

This is true for ANYONE on God's green Earth who seeks to enter in at the Strait Gate. Each must answer these questions for their own self.

Why have I always sought my own way, and cared not for God's way? Why do I find it difficult, and not worth the bother to seek something I don't like or want?

God says there are living beasts before his throne that, all day, EVERY DAY, ONLY say "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Why would I not want to be one of those beings, or to do that worship and praise continuously forever?

Revelation 4
8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Acts 5
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
​

Why do I not look forward to being persecuted and even martyred for the cause of Christ? Why would I prefer to be regarded highly by the world, and the world's religious system while the true child of God is beaten, imprisoned, tortured and murdered for his testimony and his stand for Christ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

He might not need to, but we need not only to ask the question, but attempt to find an answer as well, so that we may understand the nature of man. Check out Luke 6:45 and 1 Peter 2:8. Let me know what you think

(Luke 6:43-45) 43 “For no good tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a bramble bush. 45 A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings what is wicked out of his wicked treasure; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks.​

Luke 2:8 does not tell us why the good have good treasures in their heart nor why the wicked have wicked treasure in their heart it only tells us that they do and that is very much the same as John chapter three and its message about the wicked.

(1 Peter 2:7-10) 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence.” They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed. 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

1 Peter 2:8 does not tell us why the wicked are wicked or why the reject the message of the gospel but it does tell us that those who reject Christ and the gospel message receive the appointed consequence of their unbelief while verses nine and tell tell us that the good receive a royal priesthood and become a holy nation that is God's special possession. Yet again no reason is given for the wickedness of the wicked.

 

[Hammster]

(Luke 6:43-45) 43 “For no good tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a bramble bush. 45 A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings what is wicked out of his wicked treasure; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks.​

Luke 2:8 does not tell us why the good have good treasures in their heart nor why the wicked have wicked treasure in their heart it only tells us that they do and that is very much the same as John chapter three and its message about the wicked.

(1 Peter 2:7-10) 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence.” They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed. 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

1 Peter 2:8 does not tell us why the wicked are wicked or why the reject the message of the gospel but it does tell us that those who reject Christ and the gospel message receive the appointed consequence of their unbelief while verses nine and tell tell us that the good receive a royal priesthood and become a holy nation that is God's special possession. Yet again no reason is given for the wickedness of the wicked.

What the passages tell us is that there are good trees and bad trees and they produce fruit accordingly. If a bad tree cannot produce food fruit, what could they possibly do affect their salvation?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What the passages tell us is that there are good trees and bad trees and they produce fruit accordingly. If a bad tree cannot produce food fruit, what could they possibly do affect their salvation?

Trees are an analogy. I do not think that the passage is teaching that people are irrevocably set either to be wicked or to be good. If the passage were teaching that then repentance would mean what? That a bad man can change? And falling into wickedness would mean what? That a good man can change? Well, that is precisely what the prophets in the old covenant taught.

(Ezekiel 18:19-24) 19 “‘But you will say: “Why does the son not bear guilt because of his father’s error?” Since the son has done what is just and righteous, has kept all my statutes and has observed them, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone. 21 Now if someone wicked turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps my statutes and does what is just and righteous, he will surely live. He will not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed will be held against him. He will live for doing what is righteous. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of a wicked person?’ declares the Lord GOD. ‘Do I not prefer that he turn away from his ways and live? 24 But when someone righteous abandons his righteousness and does what is wrong, doing all the detestable things the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts that he did will be remembered. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die.’​

 

[Hammster]

Trees are an analogy. I do not think that the passage is teaching that people are irrevocably set either to be wicked or to be good. If the passage were teaching that then repentance would mean what? That a bad man can change? And falling into wickedness would mean what? That a good man can change? Well, that is precisely what the prophets in the old covenant taught.

(Ezekiel 18:19-24) 19 “‘But you will say: “Why does the son not bear guilt because of his father’s error?” Since the son has done what is just and righteous, has kept all my statutes and has observed them, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone. 21 Now if someone wicked turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps my statutes and does what is just and righteous, he will surely live. He will not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed will be held against him. He will live for doing what is righteous. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of a wicked person?’ declares the Lord GOD. ‘Do I not prefer that he turn away from his ways and live? 24 But when someone righteous abandons his righteousness and does what is wrong, doing all the detestable things the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts that he did will be remembered. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die.’​

I didn't say anything about irrevocable. I said that trees bear fruit according to their natures. And they they weren't teaching that bad men could change. They were commanding them to change. However, it's clear that they could not make for themselves a clean heart. If they could, we wouldn't have chapter 36.

So, if a bad tree could produce good fruit (repentance, for instance), then Jesus was wrong when he said a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I didn't say anything about irrevocable. I said that trees bear fruit according to their natures. And they they weren't teaching that bad men could change. They were commanding them to change. However, it's clear that they could not make for themselves a clean heart. If they could, we wouldn't have chapter 36.

So, if a bad tree could produce good fruit (repentance, for instance), then Jesus was wrong when he said a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Ezekiel 18:19-24 tells me that bad men can change and that they can repent. It also tells me that good men can change and become wicked. Experience teaches this too.

And both the wicked and the good need grace to do anything as saint Paul indicates in Acts chapter seventeen. So it seems that repentance - which is a grace - can change a bad man into a good and sin can change a good man into bad. That's a lesson taught again and again in holy scripture.

When you mention chapter 36 am I right in interpreting your remark as being about Ezekiel chapter thirty six? Where it is written:

(Ezekiel 36:22-36) 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Not for your sakes am I acting, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone.”’ 23 ‘I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you profaned among them; and the nations will have to know that I am the LORD,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you back from all the lands and bring you into your land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will become clean; I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit inside you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit inside you, and I will cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will observe and carry out my ordinances. 28 Then you will dwell in the land that I gave to your forefathers, and you will be my people and I will be your God.’

29 “‘I will save you from all your uncleanness and summon the grain and make it abound, and I will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field abound, so that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were wicked, and you will loathe yourselves because of your guilt and your abominable practices. 32 But know this: I am not doing this for your sakes,’ declares the Lord GOD. ‘Instead, be ashamed and feel humiliated because of your ways, O house of Israel.’

33 “This is what the Lord GOD says: ‘In the day that I cleanse you from all your guilt, I will cause the cities to be inhabited and the ruins to be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land that was lying desolate for everyone passing by to see will be cultivated. 35 And people will say: “The desolate land has become like the garden of Eʹden, and the cities that were in ruins and desolate and torn down are now fortified and inhabited.” 36 And the nations that are left remaining around you will have to know that I myself, the LORD, have built what was torn down, and I have planted what was desolate. I myself, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it.’​

 

[Hammster]

If a bad man can do good (something for God's glory), then Jesus had it all wrong. That doesn't mean that doesn't have the right to command it. But He knows that apart from Him, no good will come. That's why He is the one who gives a new heart of flesh.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If a bad man can do good (something for God's glory), then Jesus had it all wrong. That doesn't mean that doesn't have the right to command it. But He knows that apart from Him, no good will come. That's why He is the one who gives a new heart of flesh.

Clearly a bad man can repent according to holy scripture. I know that I repented. I presume that you have too. So when you say "If a bad man can do good (something for God's glory), then Jesus had it all wrong" I can't help but think you're leaving something out of your reckoning.

 

[Hammster]

Clearly a bad man can repent according to holy scripture. I know that I repented. I presume that you have too. So when you say "If a bad man can do good (something for God's glory), then Jesus had it all wrong" I can't help but think you're leaving something out of your reckoning.

I repented because I was born again. God took my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. You see, it's all of God. The flesh produces nothing good. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Clearly a bad man can repent according to holy scripture. I know that I repented. I presume that you have too. So when you say "If a bad man can do good (something for God's glory), then Jesus had it all wrong" I can't help but think you're leaving something out of your reckoning.

I repented because I was born again. God took my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. You see, it's all of God. The flesh produces nothing good. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

I suspect we're talking at cross purposes. Perhaps you can explain what you mean. For example, are Christians "good men"? Are atheist "bad men"? And can either change?

 

[Hammster]

I suspect we're talking at cross purposes. Perhaps you can explain what you mean. For example, are Christians "good men"? Are atheist "bad men"? And can either change?

Both are sinners. One has been regenerated. One is repentant. One is being confirmed into the image of Christ. One has a righteousness that's not his own.

Any change for good (God's glory) is 100% from God.