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He wants EVERYONE saved?

twin1954

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Regardless of who we are, or what we think, we will stand before the LORD as Judge.
Clearly taught in the Scriptures.

Matthew 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
It seems to me that the one who Christ would save submits to God's judgment of his works while he deals with the rebellion, sin and self centered life he has lived. Also, Paul wrote in Romans:

Romans 8
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
We should take this seriously, regardless of how we perceive that text. We may think, "... it's all good..." and be devastated. We may be very humble, and walk circumspect before the LORD, and be pleased with God's acceptance of us.

We should take every word of the Scriptures seriously but we should not read passages as though they stand alone. The concept of differing rewards in Heaven is nothing more than a carrot used to try and get folks to act right who wouldn't otherwise.

We all get exactly whatever Christ has earned for us, which is everything.

While there are passages that teach different degrees of punishment in Hell there are none that teach differing rewards in Heaven.

But this is off topic so if you would like to continue to discuss it we should start another thread. :)
 
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twin1954

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What are the works that we will be judged on at the Judgment seat of Christ?

The work that Christ has done for us. His perfect obedience is ours and His perfect righteousness is ours.

If we are judged on any other basis, meaning the things we do or don't do, then the judgment is a place of fear for the believer which is against the teaching of the Scriptures.
 
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twin1954

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Bluelion said:
If people can not repent, then why does God call them to repent
Because it is only reasonable. Unbelief is insanity and God calls all men to repent because it is the only reasonable thing that they should do. It doesn't mean that they can repent though. God commanding men to do something in no way implies the ability to do it.
 
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Pedrito

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I Did Request Precision, Did I not?

I certainly did. Because I desire to have clear, precise, unequivocal understanding. I don't believe that any true student of the Bible would want anything less.

Yet none of the replies even came close to addressing the core issue in the passage. Each reply unmistakably avoided the real point of Jesus' pronouncement, concentrating instead for example, on differences between two types of animals.

I believe that it is extremely important to obtain a precise understanding of each and every message that issued from the mouth of the Son of God.

I therefore tender the following precise questions about the passage, hoping for equally precise answers.

1. Did Jesus reveal information about a time yet future (future both then and now)?

2. Did Jesus state that he was going to gather the nations at that time?

3. Is the clear meaning of that statement: (a) that Jesus is going to gather all people from all those nations; or (b) that he is going to gather people here and there from the nations?

3a. What did the disciples naturally understand Jesus' words to mean?

4. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which one group extracted from those gathered people would be going to Heaven?

5. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which the other group extracted from those gathered people (the remainder) would go to Hell?

6. Was the explanation given by MoreCoffee correct?

6a. If not, where as a church-goer did he get the idea?

6b. If so, then why didn't Jesus mention those who were never exposed to his brethren, and never had the chance to qualify or disqualify themselves in the manner described?

I don't think I can be judged unreasonable simply because I request precise, accurately targeted answers to the above questions.

Can I?
 
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twin1954

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I certainly did. Because I desire to have clear, precise, unequivocal understanding. I don't believe that any true student of the Bible would want anything less.


Yet none of the replies even came close to addressing the core issue in the passage. Each reply unmistakably avoided the real point of Jesus' pronouncement, concentrating instead for example, on differences between two types of animals.


I believe that it is extremely important to obtain a precise understanding of each and every message that issued from the mouth of the Son of God.


I therefore tender the following precise questions about the passage, hoping for equally precise answers.


1. Did Jesus reveal information about a time yet future (future both then and now)?


2. Did Jesus state that he was going to gather the nations at that time?


3. Is the clear meaning of that statement: (a) that Jesus is going to gather all people from all those nations; or (b) that he is going to gather people here and there from the nations?


3a. What did the disciples naturally understand Jesus' words to mean?


4. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which one group extracted from those gathered people would be going to Heaven?


5. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which the other group extracted from those gathered people (the remainder) would go to Hell?


6. Was the explanation given by MoreCoffee correct?


6a. If not, where as a church-goer did he get the idea?


6b. If so, then why didn't Jesus mention those who were never exposed to his brethren, and never had the chance to qualify or disqualify themselves in the manner described?


I don't think I can be judged unreasonable simply because I request precise, accurately targeted answers to the above questions.


Can I?

You have 4 posts here and you require that we answer you with what you call precision? I think it would serve you better to get to now some of the posters here before you start requiring things of us. You are giving the impression that you want to teach us what we don't already know. That is not a great way to start. You want answer ask simple questions. I can answer all of your questions with precision but why should I?
 
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Pedrito

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Struck By The Unwritten Rules ….

Thank you for your reply, twin1954.

You answered one of my questions - the rhetorical one at the end.

It appears I was incorrect when I said:
I don't think I can be judged unreasonable simply because I request precise, accurately targeted answers to the above questions.
That's OK. I'm new to this forum. I'll fit in. But I need to know the rules. So I need to raise two points to help me understand what I may do and not do..

Point 1.

You said:
You have 4 posts here and you require that we answer you with what you call precision?
It seems that I am to be permitted to ask sensible questions and qualify for sensible answers only after I have submitted a predetermined number of posts (and/or maybe have been a member of the forum for a predetermined time [a minimum number of weeks, months or years?]).

Please specify, so that I and other new newbies will not make the same mistake, what the minimum number of posts is, that I will have to have made before it is deemed acceptable for me to resubmit my questions and expect direct answers.

Point 2.

I can answer all of your questions with precision but why should I?
I really thought that people new to the forum would be expected to ask questions, and that "longer serving"; members would be overjoyed to answer them precisely.

Although a new member, I am happy to share what little knowledge I might have in some areas, and am further happy to have gaps and misunderstandings in that knowledge pointed out and corrected.

I really had no idea that asking for precise answers so that I could accurately learn God's truth, could be so unacceptable.
 
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twin1954

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Thank you for your reply, twin1954.


You answered one of my questions – the rhetorical one at the end.
So you have had this kind of experience before in other places? That should tell you something about yourself.


It appears I was incorrect when I said:

That's OK. I'm new to this forum. I'll fit in. But I need to know the rules. So I need to raise two points to help me understand what I may do and not do..


Point 1.


You said:

It seems that I am to be permitted to ask sensible questions and qualify for sensible answers only after I have submitted a predetermined number of posts (and/or maybe have been a member of the forum for a predetermined time [a minimum number of weeks, months or years?]).


Please specify, so that I and other new newbies will not make the same mistake, what the minimum number of posts is, that I will have to have made before it is deemed acceptable for me to resubmit my questions and expect direct answers.
When you have earned the respect of others here, just as in any other setting, and shown that you aren't some arrogant horses rear end.


Point 2.



I really thought that people new to the forum would be expected to ask questions, and that “longer serving” members would be overjoyed to answer them precisely.


Although a new member, I am happy to share what little knowledge I might have in some areas, and am further happy to have gaps and misunderstandings in that knowledge pointed out and corrected.


I really had no idea that asking for precise answers so that I could accurately learn God's truth, could be so unacceptable.
It isn't the questions it is the perceived attitude that you give in how you ask. I am more than willing to answer all legitimate questions. What I will not do is waste my time with someone who asks questions in order to tell me what I should think. You come off as the second.
 
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Pedrito

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I Must Confess I Am Puzzled

It seems that twin1954's focus is dreaming up excuse after excuse for not answering the questions that he says he can, rather than help me understand what God's Word teaches.

I cannot help but wonder why.

OK. That's his approach. No problem.

I'm sure there must be other people in this forum who can help me.

Please do.
 
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Hammster

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It seems that twin1954's focus is dreaming up excuse after excuse for not answering the questions that he says he can, rather than help me understand what God's Word teaches.

I cannot help but wonder why.

OK. That's his approach. No problem.

I'm sure there must be other people in this forum who can help me.

Please do.

You could start a new thread. :)
 
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Avid

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... We should take every word of the Scriptures seriously but we should not read passages as though they stand alone. The concept of differing rewards in Heaven is nothing more than a carrot used to try and get folks to act right who wouldn't otherwise...
Not sure how this applies to the discussion. I was talking about EVERY person needing to face God with what he has said and done. Standing before God's Judgment in this life is the issue of whether the person submits to Christ for salvation of his soul or not.

I tend to hold the subject of rewards in reserve, because, I think people who can't understand the scriptures concentrate on something they heard about that, and miss too much of what is important because of it.

As you stated, we may start a new thread concerning that.
 
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twin1954

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Not sure how this applies to the discussion. I was talking about EVERY person needing to face God with what he has said and done. Standing before God's Judgment in this life is the issue of whether the person submits to Christ for salvation of his soul or not.

I tend to hold the subject of rewards in reserve, because, I think people who can't understand the scriptures concentrate on something they heard about that, and miss too much of what is important because of it.

As you stated, we may start a new thread concerning that.
If you want to start it I will take part. I am more than willing to remove the beam from your eye. Wink.
 
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twin1954

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I Must Confess I Am Puzzled

It seems that twin1954's focus is dreaming up excuse after excuse for not answering the questions that he says he can, rather than help me understand what God's Word teaches.

I cannot help but wonder why.

OK. That's his approach. No problem.

I'm sure there must be other people in this forum who can help me.

Please do.
If you are seriously asking in order to better understand the Scriptures then I will be glad to answer. What I will not do is waste my time answering questions meant to tell me what I should think. I already know what my positions are and why. While I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, though they should of course, I have spent many years of prayerful study in the Scriptures and maybe someday I will know just a little something about them.
 
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Avid

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Not too interested in talking about rewards. It is not as important a study as salvation, and how we must submit to God as an act of our own will, though, we do not have the ability to do that.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

II Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I am not thinking these are verses specifically about rewards, as many people think. It is a teaching that seems to leave out much, and I see the whole of scripture needing to be taken as God's word.

That God wants EVERYONE saved is not something that changes His sovereignty, His purpose nor His design in bringing many sons to glory.

Hebrews 2
10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
.​

That we must follow Jesus in suffering in this life is yet again another subject.
 
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twin1954

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Not too interested in talking about rewards. It is not as important a study as salvation, and how we must submit to God as an act of our own will, though, we do not have the ability to do that.
That is fine though I do believe it is an important subject due to how commonly it is taught. It certainly isn't as important as understanding the Gospel of the sovereign grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ which is very pertinent to this topic.

BTW, I hope you do realize that I was kidding when I said that I would take the beam out of your eye.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

II Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I am not thinking these are verses specifically about rewards, as many people think. It is a teaching that seems to leave out much, and I see the whole of scripture needing to be taken as God's word.
Yes we must all stand before Christ in the Judgment. But for the believer we are assured that we have already been judged in Christ. His obedience is our obedience, His righteousness is our righteousness, His sufferings are our sufferings. He stood as the Surety of His people and all that was due to them He made His own and now they must go free.

When He taught in John 16: 8-11 He was teaching that the Spirit will convince of sin because we see not only the sinfulness of sin but also the result of sin in the death of Christ for our sin. that when the Spirit convinces of righteousness He does so by convincing us that God is righteous and just in punishing Christ in our place and by imputing His righteousness to us as though we had done all. When the Spirit convinces of judgment He convinces that judgment is past for all who trust Christ alone.

Believers have no reason to fear the judgment. That is what the Gospel is all about.

That God wants EVERYONE saved is not something that changes His sovereignty, His purpose nor His design in bringing many sons to glory.
If that were the teaching of the Scriptures I would have no problem with it. But since it isn't, as can be seen in many ways throughout the Scriptures from Noah and seven others being saved to the day of atonement being just for the Jews, I cannot believe it. If God wants everyone saved they would be. He set His love on a peculiar and particular people. He set them apart in sovereign mercy and He saved them by the Son taking their place in judgment.

Hebrews 2
10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
That we must follow Jesus in suffering in this life is yet again another subject.
I preached a message on this passage a few years ago called it was necessary. It was necessary that Christ suffer as a man because it was a man who sinned and brought suffering into this world. It was necessary that Christ suffer because in it He is able to have compassion on those who suffer. There was a lot more to it but that is a basic understanding of the passage.

To follow Jesus in His sufferings is nothing more and nothing less than a life of faith looking to Him and His finished work.
 
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Pedrito

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In Reply #432 twin1954 said:
I already know what my positions are and why.

I am still learning. One of the ways one learns is by asking questions.

In Reply #432 twin1954 also said:
While I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, … I have spent many years of prayerful study in the Scriptures and maybe someday I will know just a little something about them.

Our paths may not be that different in essence. The first of twin1954's statements quoted above indicates he is ahead of me.

With respect to twin1954's statement (same Reply #432):
If you are seriously asking in order to better understand the Scriptures then I will be glad to answer.

If my questions seem more pointed and targeted than most other people's, that's just the way my mind works. (I can give a semi-humourous example from my professional life, if it is ever of interest to anyone.)

I will appreciate twin1954's answers whenever he feels it appropriate to post them.
 
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twin1954

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To Pedrito;


The answers to apparently difficult questions can often be found by simply looking at what the Bible states, in the absence of the normal filters which we are taught to apply to it. With the aim of providing some possibly helpful background regarding the title of this thread, I tender the following questions for careful consideration.
Which I will try my best to do now.
1. To what Scriptures was Paul referring in 2 Timothy 3:15 as being able to make people “wise unto salvation”? I.e. what were the Scriptures available in his day, those to which Timothy understood his mentor to be referring?
They had the Old Testament, the Septuagent, the Greek translation of the Old testament, was commonly used and quoted most often by Christ and the Apostles. The Scriptures that they had were sufficient to show, as evidenced by the many things that the Lord said, that He was to come and die as the Redeemer. He opened the understanding of the men on the road to Emmaus to see that the whole of the Old Testament spoke of Him as it still does.
2. What did God tell Adam would happen to him if he disobeyed God's command?
That in the day that he sinned he would die. It can be legitimately and as when you sin, because you are going to, you will die. Adam lived a physical life for hundreds of years more after the Fall but God did not lie to him. Adam died spiritually in the very moment he sinned. Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived, 1Tim. 2:14. That means that Adam knew exactly what he was doing when he ate of the fruit. He knew that the woman must die and he desired the woman more than he desired God. He determined to die with her. Oh what a picture of the love and grace of Christ for His people. Adam gave himself for the one whom had ravished his heart just as Christ gave Himself for the bride, His church, who has ravished His heart, SOS 4:9.


Adam was the Federal head of all who would come by him and represented all those born from His lions. When he sinned we all sinned. Here is a message that I preached on this very subject:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonid=1071432681



3. What did Adam understand that to mean (and how did he)?
As I said above Adam died spiritually. How much he knew at that point is conjecture. We do know that Adam was created a brilliant man. God gave him dominion over all His creation and he named every creature that was created. He wasn’t created an imbecile or even a babe but a man with the full capacity to obey God and enjoy communion with Him. He walked with God in the cool of the evening.

I am amazed at how those who think that they can sustain themselves, though they are sinners by nature, when Adam, who was created upright and in the image of God, couldn’t.
4. Did Adam disobey?
Yes he did as I explained above.
5. Did Adam die?
Yes he did as I explained above.
6. What did God reveal in the inspired Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanach, the so-called “Old Testament”), regarding the mechanism by which He would restore people from being dead? I.e. what did God reveal they could look forward to?
Well we have the first promise of the Gospel in Gen 3:15. Christ is the promised seed of the woman. Moreover just six verses later God shed the first blood of a substitute on the Earth. He clothed our first parents with the skin of the sacrifice picturing the atonement of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to us in justification.

Adam apparently understood this as he taught his sons as evidenced in Gen. 4 when they brought sacrifices to the Lord. Shed blood, brought by Abel, was accepted but the work of Cain’s labor was not.

Moreover the oldest book of the Bible reveals that the redeeming sacrifice of Christ was looked forward to and expected. Job 19:25-27
7. What did Paul (Saul of Tarsus) declare was his great hope?
Christ in him the hope of glory. Col. 1:27
8. What does Acts 3:21 actually state? (Can it really mean, as we are told by many, that the whole world will become righteous prior to Jesus' return [even though Satan will not yet be bound]?)
That Christ will return at the appointed time.
9. What does God declare, in those very same inspired Hebrew Scriptures mentioned above, will be the future of Sodom and Gomorrah? Does that clarify the intended meaning of Acts 3:21 (among other things)?
Not sure what you are getting at here. The Lord clearly said that it will more tolerable for them than for those cities He spoke against in Matt. 11 which saw and heard Him but received Him not. This question makes me [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] my head and wonder what you are trying to get at.
I would suggest that honestly finding and accepting the precise answers to the above questions will lead, at least part-way, to the unequivocal answer to the title question of this thread – will lead to the definitive Yes or No first, and then lead definitively to the related question, “Why?”.
If such thoughts have already been expressed in this thread or elsewhere, please forgive me.
The definitive answer is no He doesn’t but these questions seem to have nothing to do with that answer as far as I can tell.

I am not sure what yiu are getting at. It is difficult to tell whether you are espousing that He does want All men to be saved or that He doesn’t. But there are many clear Scriptures, not to mention the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole, that make it obvious that He doesn’t. he said to Moses in Ex. 33:18-19 that His mercy is sovereign mercy and that He would have mercy on whom He would have mercy. Paul quotes that passage in Rom. 9:15-16.
 
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hedrick

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MoreCoffee, a question for you:

Your Scriptural evidence is clear. Quite a variety of passages in Scripture maintain that Christ died for or redeemed the whole world or all. Trying to avoid this leads to a kind of exegesis that can turn anything into anything else. This doesn’t necessarily have terrible implications for many theologies. First, it doesn’t imply universalism. One can say that while Christ has died for everyone, some people throw the gift back in his face. That’s consistent with Scripture, I think. It needn’t even rule out one type of Calvinism, since we can still say that it’s God’s plan which people do this.

However it does appear to me the cause problems for the usual Augustinian worldview, at least in its Protestant form. That says that original sin is serious enough that God must regenerate a person before he can respond to God. Logically, one can maintain that God has done this for everyone through Christ’s death, but that even after being freed some people refuse God. Is that your position? Such a position would be unusual in Protestants, since if grace is universal, it doesn’t seem that it has much of a role in salvation.

Paul, I think, maintains both that Christ has died for all and that those who are in Christ have received grace in a special way. These two things are hard to reconcile, but I fear we’re stuck with them. The later Luther seems to have refused to explain how some can not be saved. In the last few years I’ve come to suspect that this may be the best we can do.
 
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twin1954

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MoreCoffee, a question for you:

Your Scriptural evidence is clear. Quite a variety of passages in Scripture maintain that Christ died for or redeemed the whole world or all. Trying to avoid this leads to a kind of exegesis that can turn anything into anything else. This doesn’t necessarily have terrible implications for many theologies. First, it doesn’t imply universalism. One can say that while Christ has died for everyone, some people throw the gift back in his face. That’s consistent with Scripture, I think. It needn’t even rule out one type of Calvinism, since we can still say that it’s God’s plan which people do this.

However it does appear to me the cause problems for the usual Augustinian worldview, at least in its Protestant form. That says that original sin is serious enough that God must regenerate a person before he can respond to God. Logically, one can maintain that God has done this for everyone through Christ’s death, but that even after being freed some people refuse God. Is that your position? Such a position would be unusual in Protestants, since if grace is universal, it doesn’t seem that it has much of a role in salvation.

Paul, I think, maintains both that Christ has died for all and that those who are in Christ have received grace in a special way. These two things are hard to reconcile, but I fear we’re stuck with them. The later Luther seems to have refused to explain how some can not be saved. In the last few years I’ve come to suspect that this may be the best we can do.
Nonsense! Is God God or not? If He is then all that He wills to be saved will be and those He doesn't are left in their depravity. There is no paradox to confuse the unbeliever or the believer. God saves whom He has chosen according to His sovereign mercy and grace and that is the end of the question.
 
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Pedrito

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My thanks to twin1954 for the answers provided in Reply #436 to my first set of questions in Reply #411. Those questions were actually designed to stimulate thought and Scripture searching, rather than elicit responses. However I am thankful for the information provided.

twin1954 expressed some puzzlement:
It is difficult to tell whether you are espousing that He does want All men to be saved or that He doesn’t.

I wasn't trying to espouse anything. I was merely seeking to stimulate thought and possibly deeper Bible study.


The questions I would really appreciate twin1954's thoughts on are those I asked in Reply #424, regarding the Scripture passage tendered by MoreCoffee (Matthew 25:31-46) in Reply #401, and the interpretation he put on it.

So I'm looking forward expectantly to twin1954's thoughts on those questions as well, whenever their posting is deemed appropriate.

Once again, my thanks to twin1954 for the information he's provided me so far.

(I enjoyed listening to the sermon as well.)
 
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