Having some questions and concerns about God's will and justice system.

[Bob Crowley]

1. There is a big question about what happens to people who died and never heard of the Gospel or Jesus Christ. Some folks say that these people go to hell automatically and that they are without excuses at all. My question to the people who believe this is how exactly would these people even be able to reach out to God and know the truth to get a fair chance? I understand what Paul says in Romans about the creation being an argument for the true God's existence but remember that these people from uncontacted tribes and those who lived before Jesus Christ obviously grew up in different religions that taught different things from what we learned in the Bible. So how exactly would it be just for those people to be burning in hell forever because they didn't know the truth?

We don't know what arrangements God has made for those who have never heard the Gospel, or have only heard it in situations where it was unlikely they would make a commitment to Christ. I suspect that most of us, if for example we had been brought up in a strict Islamic society eg. Iran, would not be Christians.

God is the judge, not us.

2. Christians basically say that the atonement of Jesus Christ, who is a perfect and innocent person, died in our place and took our punishment for all of humanity's sins upon him on the cross even though he was innocent so we can go to be with God in the New Heaven and Earth. My question is how exactly is it just for an innocent person to die and face the punishment for somebody else?

Jesus Christ was more than just a "person". He was God in the flesh. It was God Himself who was taking on the sins of the world, not just an ordinary man. The Creator was taking on the failings of the Created.

God was the one who planned this universe, knowing full well that Man would fall. In a sense He was responsibe for it. Just to make sure we would fall, He cast Satan down to earth.

It's part of the cosmic drama. The role of Christ was far beyond that of any ordinary man.

3. Christians believe in an eternal burning hell. I honestly agree that sin should be punished somehow. However, how would it be just to say that the punishment for every sin has to be the same exact thing? Why should someone who just stole something or probably lied to their family about something be punished with the same punishment of burning for an eternity in hellfire along with someone who is a mass genocidal dictator? I just don't understand why every single sin is punished the same way like that.

Just as God is the judge (and not us) so also He is be the one who decides the penalties in Hell. I personally think there are levels in Hell, all of them awful. Being Catholic I think Purgatory exists, although that is mainly for venial and not mortal sins. Anyone who goes to Purgatory gets into Heaven eventually.

The fact remains though that we take a risk if we ignore the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't think the crucified God much admires the human race which crucified Him.

 

[Clare73]

These are good questions. I can't answer them all. But I can point you in some relevant directions.
-- On God offering to forgive sins... If God offers to do something, such as receive the death of Jesus as a way in which those who repent of their sins, can be forgiven, then I don't see how we can argue with that. It may, or may not make sense to us. But if God is making this offer, then I don't have to get some explanation that makes sense to me.
-- God has made offers, in the past, to forgive sins. This was a point in the covenant with the ancient Jews, called the law of Moses. God guaranteed that if the Jews did specific things, then he would forgive their sins. (This is debated by some Protestant Fundamentalist groups. But a careful study of the Old Testament will show that God does offer the forgiveness of sins, in the law of Moses.)

Yes, their sins were covered by the sacrifices (Ro 4:7, Ps 85:2) until they were forgiven by the cross (Ro 3:25).

-- As for the "good news", Protestant Fundamentalists often take this phrase in the New Testament in a much more restrictive way, than the language of the Bible means. We see the book of Hebrews, in the New Testament, talking about "saints" in the Old Testament. It is clear, that they are redeemed. But it is also clear, that they never heard of Jesus, or God's "new deal" for the forgiveness of sins, in the New Testament. Those who claim that someone must believe their "gospel" (as they understand it), or they cannot have their sins forgiven, aren't familiar with the biblical language in the Old Testament. I would not impose the New Testament language about Jesus as the Savior, onto people before the coming of Jesus as a baby in the Incarnation.

I would suggest that God has given human beings some guaranteed ways in which they can be forgiven, and healed of their sinfulness. We have examples of these in the law of Moses, and the New Covenant (the message of the New Testament). BUT, outside of these agreements, God has shown that he is merciful, and willing to forgive. We see an example of this in Abraham. And the New Testament states that we should have the same kind of faith, that Abraham had (in God).

There is a lot of very narrow and strident rhetoric that some groups use, to describe how one must come to God. But the reality is that the Bible has examples of people outside of the law of Moses, or the new Covenant, coming to God and being considered righteous. It is better to study the entire Bible, than rely on the strong rhetoric of one or another Christian denomination.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Reparation is repairing a wrong.
It is not a misnomer to refer to as reparation my voluntarily paying the fine at the Courthouse for my brother's traffic violation.
I am "accepting" his punishment for breaking the law.

You are making a sacrifice not a reparation. Your brother repaying you would be reparation.

 

[Clare73]

You are making a sacrifice not a reparation. Your brother repaying you would be reparation.

Who made that rule?

The definition of "reparation" is not limited to the offender.

 

[ViaCrucis]

God's justice looks like Jesus Christ dying for us, in order that we should be reconciled to God.

Romans 1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek. By it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'"

When Paul writes that by it (the Gospel) God's justice is revealed, he is speaking of God's justice of justifying sinners by His grace; hence "the just shall live by faith" means that through faith we are justified, receiving as a gift, God's justice, aka His righteousness. It is not our righteousness, but Christ's righteousness that we receive through faith which reckons us righteous--just--before God.

So God's justice through the Gospel is that we should be justified by His grace on Christ's account. God's justice through the Gospel is that our sins are forgiven, that we are reconciled to God, that we have peace with God. God's justice through the Gospel is the cancellation of all debts.

Christ has done this once and for all. That is why Paul in Romans 5:18 says that through the obedience of one Man (Jesus) all have been justified. Lutherans call this "Objective Justification", it is the objective, singular work of Christ which has dealt with all sin for all people, Christ tasted death for every single person (see also Hebrews 2:14).

Subjective Justification refers to our receiving Christ's righteousness through faith; that through faith we are the passive recipients that receive (as a pure gift from God) Christ's perfect righteousness. Even faith here is God's power, work, and gift (Ephesians 2:8) which God works by the power of the Gospel (Romans 10:17).

So God's "default" toward sinners, in Christ, is love, mercy, and forgiveness. That is why Christ founded His Church, and then commissioned His Church to go out and preach the Gospel and to baptize. That through this precious Means of Grace--Word and Sacrament--the world might come to know God their Savior, because He is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

Hell is not a punishment God doles out on people who fail to have believed the right things in this life, as though heaven is about winning a religious lottery by happening to stumble upon the right sequence of winning numbers, and everyone else gets cast into hell for losing the game.

Hell is what happens when we are left to fester in our rejection of God--His grace, His love, His life--and we carry on in the same state as we find ourselves in apart from Him: Sinful and full of death. We are, apart from God's grace, already dead rotting corpses (Ephesians 2:1). It is grace that raises us from the dead, both in this life through new birth and in the future life by the resurrection of the body. Apart from grace, then, we simply continue in the trajectory we already were going: Being dead and full of sin.

If Hell were nothing more than just people going on and on and on as they are now, without the radical intervention of God's grace, being miserable and hateful and violent--that would still be truly total and complete Hell.

It isn't that God punishes with Hell. Hell is the natural condition of fallen man. And it's where we all are, full and final, when we wholesale reject mercy, love, and forgiveness. Because the mercy, love, and forgiveness of God intends to not leave us as we are, but to save us, to rescue us, and change us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

I’ll be honest - I didn’t read your reply.

I’ve spoken to you before, it’s just round and round in circles. I never get a good answer - I assumed at the time you didn’t have a good answer and didn’t want to say “I don’t know” - so, rather than say that you just argued in circles and filled your replies with cut/pastes you wouldn’t explain.

It’s not worth the trouble.

I don't do cut and paste from others.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I don't do cut and paste from others.

I forgot what we were talking about now haha

 

[Clare73]

I forgot what we were talking about now haha

You can link back to find out.
Just click on the return arrow after the name of the one to whom the poster is responding, and in each post it will link you back, all the way to the beginning of your conversation.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

You can link back to find out.
Just click on the return arrow after the name of the one to whom the poster is responding, and in each post it will link you back, all the way to the beginning of your conversation.

Thanks for showing me that

 

[splish- splash]

As far as I have understood this, God does not have to be fair or just in our eyes for Him to be called a just and fair God. For example, someone who has lived for God throughout their life may face tragedy and not come out, whilst another person who has lived their life as they pleased for many years without God, may be rescued by the same God if they got into a similar mess. Some will feel this and others will feel that, but God remains God despite how we feel.

When it comes to those who have passed on and never got the chance to hear about God, I cannot see how it will be possible for them to enter heaven, as they never got the opportunity to receive Christ. This is why I am saying that, God does not have to be fair or just in our eyes, for Him to be called fair and just.

God can tell you today that it is a sin to kill, yet He takes lives everyday and afterwards still remain pure and holy. God is way above the law, I can safely say. He sets rules but does not have to adhere to them as God is not restricted or controlled by His own rules.

 

[Clare73]

As far as I have understood this, God does not have to be fair or just in our eyes for Him to be called a just and fair God. For example, someone who has lived for God throughout their life may face tragedy and not come out, whilst another person who has lived their life as they pleased for many years without God, may be rescued by the same God if they got into a similar mess. Some will feel this and others will feel that, but God remains God despite how we feel.

Seems to be some confusion regarding the justice of God.

Justice is giving everyone his due, what he has earned, what he is owed.
What have you earned that God owes you and has not paid?

Do you have a justified claim against God's justice?

When it comes to those who have passed on and never got the chance to hear about God, I cannot see how it will be possible for them to enter heaven, as they never got the opportunity to receive Christ. This is why I am saying that, God does not have to be fair or just in our eyes, for Him to be called fair and just.

God can tell you today that it is a sin to kill, yet He takes lives everyday and afterwards still remain pure and holy. God is way above the law, I can safely say. He sets rules but does not have to adhere to them as God is not restricted or controlled by His own rules.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Who made that rule?

The definition of "reparation" is not limited to the offender.

One cannot repair a relationship that was not one's relationship. Only the parties involved can do that. The party that has broken that relationship is the only one that can repair the relationship an outsider cannot cause that to happen. As for definitions, I know of no definition that could possibly be seen as defining you paying your brother's debts as a form of reparations. Not unless you had previously wronged your brother and were hoping that by paying his debt it might repair the relationship between the two of you.

 

[Clare73]

One cannot repair a relationship that was not one's relationship. Only the parties involved can do that. The party that has broken that relationship is the only one that can repair the relationship an outsider cannot cause that to happen. As for definitions, I know of no definition that could possibly be seen as defining you paying your brother's debts as a form of reparations. Not unless you had previously wronged your brother and were hoping that by paying his debt it might repair the relationship between the two of you.

Reparation is not necessarily about relationship.

Probably most reparation has nothing to do with relationship.