Haven't You Moved Pass Leviticus?

[RMDY]

The freedom (and the discipline) given to us by Paul in Romans 13-15 and Galatians is just too much for many people to take.

So, the sinful, legalistic authoritarian in many people comes out and starts putting as many "thou shalts" and "shoulds" with the gift of salvation given to us by Christ — and before we know it, we're right back to following an authoritarian set of laws administered by — authoritarians!

Image that.

There's a reason a lot of conservative, authoritarian men don't want women preaching, and it has very little to do with 1 Timothy 2: it's because these conservative, authoritarian men are not about to give up their power without a fight!

Same reason goes as to why a lot of these same conservative authoritarians don't want gays and lesbians in their churches — of course, gays and lesbians good enough to tithe, and we're good enough to help the churches fill their coffers so the church can keep its doors open; but God forbid that gays and lesbians be allowed to share their God-given gifts with the church and usurp some of that power which so many of those conservative authoritarians desperately want to keep for themselves.

Look at so many church councils, vestries, boards and diaconates — how many of those people have been there 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years; and how many of those have been running the church with an iron hand? Stifling any innovation? And always using those same seven words where the Devil resides: "We've never done it THAT way before!"

That's where Leviticus comes in handy. Of course, these same authoritarians realize that the rest of Leviticus no longer applies, although some of them are desperately trying to get as much to apply to others which conveniently ignoring any parts of Leviticus — or Exodus, or Numbers, or Deuteronomy or the rest of the Old Testament — which might apply to them; but Leviticus sure comes in handy when trying to keep certain people in their place so these same authoritarians don't have to give up any of their precious power!

And that's what it's really all about — power; pride ("I can run this church and I don't need your help"); and control ("This is the way we've always done it, and this is the way we're always going to do it") — and there's a little three-letter acronym which describes the anti-Christian, truly self-ish behavior on the part of these authoritarians:

Easing
God
Out.

But Jesus speaks out directly in the past by saying sexual immorality is an evil thing. Jesus in revelation speaks out against sexual immorality as being an evil thing.
Jesus labeled such things as evil. We get our definition of sexual immorality from leviticus18 and other verses dealing with the topic of sex (such as Jesus commanding his followers to abstain from lust)
So if Jesus labeled such things as evil and those who do not overcome them will not be rewarded, why do we want to continue doing them?
Did you read Revelation 21:6-8

"He who overcomes all this will be given eternal life and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the...."
(You can read the passage yourself...)

 

[UberLutheran]

But Jesus speaks out directly in the past by saying sexual immorality is an evil thing. Jesus in revelation speaks out against sexual immorality as being an evil thing.
Jesus labeled such things as evil. We get our definition of sexual immorality from leviticus18 and other verses dealing with the topic of sex (such as Jesus commanding his followers to abstain from lust)
So if Jesus labeled such things as evil and those who do not overcome them will not be rewarded, why do we want to continue doing them?
Did you read Revelation 21:6-8

"He who overcomes all this will be given eternal life and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the...."
(You can read the passage yourself...)

It boils down to this:

If you want to be justified before God by observing the Law, go observe the Law -- but observe ALL of it: the dietary restrictions, the rules for cleanliness/uncleanliness, etc.

Basically, you will need to "out-orthodox" the most orthodox Jews.

I've chosen to receive God's gift of grace -- completely unearned, completely unmerited -- given to me by faith in Jesus Christ.

I claim Romans 8:31-46 and Romans 14, and I choose to work out my salvation with fear and trembling (2 Cor. 7:5, Philippians 2:12).

You can claim Leviticus and Deuteronomy, if that works for you.

(And by the way: I don't believe that Revelations is the "play-by-play" description of the literal end of the world, or that it was ever intended to be such a thing.)

This pretty much ends the discussion.

 

[UberLutheran]

FIRST, I never said gays were not welcome in the ELCIC - you said that.

Before we even get going on this, show me where I said gays were not welcome in the ELCIC -- or even mentioned the ELCIC.

I've never even been to Canada, though I've heard it's very pretty and the people in general are lovely.

The church is only doing this to get people into the ELCIC because it is dying. They don't care about same sex marriages - they care about attendance. Can they honestly say that gays will flock to the ELCIC churches and attendance will double? I have huge doubts.

I'm not sure if gays will flock to ELCIC churches if the ELCIC welcomes gays and lesbians into their fold -- but I can tell you the Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, Presbyterian, Quaker and even Baptist churches which have done so down where I live have experienced very significant growth.

I don't know WHY it's so difficult for some heterosexuals to realize this, but gays and lesbians have a need to worship God every bit as much as heterosexuals do -- and we'd like to be able to do that without being reminded every single minute that we are being "allowed" to worship in spite of the fact that we're one of THOSE people.

What will be the end result of this come June- the church splitting in half. If there were any truth in the issue, the church would not split and there would be no division among us.

And it if splits in half, then like a zygote there will be two cells to grow. A denomination splitting is NOT the worst thing in the world! In fact, especially when there is a highly contentious issue, it can be a very GOOD thing.

Another thing, what churches are flourishing in Canada and the US? Evangelical, fundamental churches – those that stand by Scripture and God’s word.

The MCC church (the "gay" church) here in Austin outgrew its facilities, so they built another church. Within six weeks, their attendance had grown so much that they had to have two services -- and then three, and then a service on Saturday evening in addition to the three Sunday services, and then they added a Sunday evening service.

Here we have a Biblically-based Christian church which welcomes gays and lesbians -- which has the wonderful problem of having to find a SECOND bigger home!

Guess what? The Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist and Quaker churches which declared themselves to be accepting of gays and lesbians as full members of their churches -- all grew!

Uber, I would welcome you and your partner into my church. However, I cannot see the church blessing something God declared an abomination.

It sounds like what you're saying is that my partner and I would be welcome in your church -- but not really. "We're welcome in the church -- as long as it's understood by all parties that my partner and I are an abomination." Gee: if I wanted that, I could get that from plenty of other churches!

The issue of interracial marriage - God never declared it an abomination for different races to be married. He does say we should not marry unbelievers, and I agree with that.

The "PC" thing is to say that God never said it was an abomination for different races to be married (because that offends our 21st century sensibilities) but the truth is that in the Old Testament marriage between Jews (the race) and non-Jews was very strictly prohibited, especially after the Law was codified following the Babylonian exile.

Having an ancestor who was found to have married a non-Jew even back ten generations was cause enough to have someone (and their family) removed from the rolls of being "officially Jewish". (The Nazis, by contrast, went back only four generations.)

You grew up in Canada. I grew up in the American South. I heard the sermons; I heard many of the same Scriptures applied to gays being applied to blacks (and Mexicans, for that matter). State laws prohibited blacks and whites from intermarrying until well into the 1960s. There was every possible justification, including the use of the word "abomination", for keeping blacks together over on their side and whites over here on our side -- and blacks were allowed to have whatever rights we told them they could have.

And, of course -- God was on "our" side. Pastors, priests and ministers made that abundantly clear -- with plenty of Scripture to back up their opinions.

Well -- they were wrong. As they were with the ordination of women. As I'm sure they are eventually going to realize about gay people -- with the possible exception of Texas (which should be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century sometime around the year 2050).

 

[RMDY]

It boils down to this:

If you want to be justified before God by observing the Law, go observe the Law -- but observe ALL of it: the dietary restrictions, the rules for cleanliness/uncleanliness, etc.

It also boils down to this: God died for our transgressions and we wouldn't know what they were if it weren't for the law. (Romans)

Basically, you will need to "out-orthodox" the most orthodox Jews.

I've chosen to receive God's gift of grace -- completely unearned, completely unmerited -- given to me by faith in Jesus Christ.

I claim Romans 8:31-46 and Romans 14, and I choose to work out my salvation with fear and trembling (2 Cor. 7:5, Philippians 2:12).

You can claim Leviticus and Deuteronomy, if that works for you.

God's grace allows us to be forgiven, so stop sinning if you know leviticus labels certain things sinful. Furthermore, the new covenant puts great emphasis on abstaining from sexual immorality. The New Covenant isn't just about freeing you from the bondage of sexual immorality and the condemnation that goes with it, its about starting fresh again and following God from your heart rather than out of fear through a law that condemns you. It isn't the law that condemns you but rather your own actions when you face God. Jesus only allows us to be forgiven but if we transgress the law, we are to ask for forgiveness so God will not take that sin into account. If we sin and don't repent, then God will take that sin into account.

Without Jesus, there is no forgiveness. If we continue to sin, then Jesus death is meaningless and we are condemned. We are saved through forgiveness by His blood. If we sin, we need to ask for forgiveness. You can go through life sinning, being forgiven, and willingly do the same sins again, but ultimately, you will want to stop because you love God, not because you need to follow a set of rules!

(And by the way: I don't believe that Revelations is the "play-by-play" description of the literal end of the world, or that it was ever intended to be such a thing.)

This pretty much ends the discussion.

I respect your opinion on this, but one must trust in the bible if they are to receive the full power of the spirit. If they go through life as a christian doubter, Satan will exploit this.

 

[RMDY]

This rings in my head:

leviticus18:30 So keep my charge not to commit any of these abominations that were done before you, and not to defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God

Furthermore, what is your comment on this:

"Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
-Matthew 12:50

Some of us seem to not be doing the will of the father by doing what the father declared to be evil.

In addition to what Jesus says, who also does the will of the father:

"He went on: 'What comes out of a man is what makes him "unclean." For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean."'"
-Mark 7:20-23

Jesus labeled sexual immorality evil.

[QUOTE[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leviticus 20:26[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be my holy people because I, the LORD, am holy. I have separated you from other people to be my very own.[/FONT][/quote]

Since we christians are God's people, we are to be holy ourselves, not comitting these sinful acts that God listed as detestable in Leviticus18 and Leviticus20

speaking of which, some of you are concerned about cleanliness, so anything that can go into a persons mouth does not make a person unclean. It is only what proceeds out of their heart which makes them unclean and detestable.

-Matthew 15:11"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"

This will cover anything on the topic of cleanliness. Wearing jeans does not affect what happens within a persons heart.

Notice what Jesus says in addition to this:

-Mark 7:20-23"He went on: 'What comes out of a man is what makes him "unclean." For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean."'"

So, according to what Jesus says, wearing jeans and eating any kind of food would be fine. There are other verses to justify this.

This also confirms why christians believe homosexuality is a sin, because it is something that proceeds out of a person's heart rather than something that occurs externally. And just as Jesus labeled evil thoughts and other evils and intentions that proceed from the heart as sinful, such as lust, jesus labeled sexual immorality that originates from the heart as sinful.

There you have it, because some of you wish to commit homosexuality from your heart by believing it is human affection, you are sinning from your own hearts.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

These posts/arguments are senseless, and we should all just abandon it. Satan is truly deceitful. As you can see from these posts, Satan has blinded so many individuals from the truth. And I know most people will read these thread and call me a bigot, ignorant, etc. However, it is written throughout the Bible that sexual immortality is wrong, and people continually test God’s truth and replace it with their own. Next month the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada will once AGAIN ask the Holy Spirit whether same sex marriage should be blessed. This is the second time they are asking God because he said yes to the Eastern Synod and no to the Western Synod. Does this make any sense?? By doing this again they are making God into a liar. If homosexuality and same-sex marriage were OK with God, there would be no need to vote. If there was any truth to homosexuality, there would be no division.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4

What is the sense then in the 1000+ denominations? The only reason why we have them is because groups of people have a belief that others don't, and they branch off...so, along those lines..has God been lying since we have so many Christian denominations? Did not the entire Protestant Reformation come as a result of a divorce? Look at all the people following Protestant denominations as a result. Did God lie to us saying divorce isn't good, and then told others it's ok? We are living through a very big change with marriage. Hundreds of years ago, denominations were formed because of a differene of beliefs...HUndreds of years from now, same sex anything will be nothing at all.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Before we even get going on this, show me where I said gays were not welcome in the ELCIC -- or even mentioned the ELCIC.

I've never even been to Canada, though I've heard it's very pretty and the people in general are lovely.



I'm not sure if gays will flock to ELCIC churches if the ELCIC welcomes gays and lesbians into their fold -- but I can tell you the Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, Presbyterian, Quaker and even Baptist churches which have done so down where I live have experienced very significant growth.

I don't know WHY it's so difficult for some heterosexuals to realize this, but gays and lesbians have a need to worship God every bit as much as heterosexuals do -- and we'd like to be able to do that without being reminded every single minute that we are being "allowed" to worship in spite of the fact that we're one of THOSE people.




And it if splits in half, then like a zygote there will be two cells to grow. A denomination splitting is NOT the worst thing in the world! In fact, especially when there is a highly contentious issue, it can be a very GOOD thing.





The MCC church (the "gay" church) here in Austin outgrew its facilities, so they built another church. Within six weeks, their attendance had grown so much that they had to have two services -- and then three, and then a service on Saturday evening in addition to the three Sunday services, and then they added a Sunday evening service.

Here we have a Biblically-based Christian church which welcomes gays and lesbians -- which has the wonderful problem of having to find a SECOND bigger home!

Guess what? The Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist and Quaker churches which declared themselves to be accepting of gays and lesbians as full members of their churches -- all grew!





It sounds like what you're saying is that my partner and I would be welcome in your church -- but not really. "We're welcome in the church -- as long as it's understood by all parties that my partner and I are an abomination." Gee: if I wanted that, I could get that from plenty of other churches!






The "PC" thing is to say that God never said it was an abomination for different races to be married (because that offends our 21st century sensibilities) but the truth is that in the Old Testament marriage between Jews (the race) and non-Jews was very strictly prohibited, especially after the Law was codified following the Babylonian exile.

Having an ancestor who was found to have married a non-Jew even back ten generations was cause enough to have someone (and their family) removed from the rolls of being "officially Jewish". (The Nazis, by contrast, went back only four generations.)

You grew up in Canada. I grew up in the American South. I heard the sermons; I heard many of the same Scriptures applied to gays being applied to blacks (and Mexicans, for that matter). State laws prohibited blacks and whites from intermarrying until well into the 1960s. There was every possible justification, including the use of the word "abomination", for keeping blacks together over on their side and whites over here on our side -- and blacks were allowed to have whatever rights we told them they could have.

And, of course -- God was on "our" side. Pastors, priests and ministers made that abundantly clear -- with plenty of Scripture to back up their opinions.

Well -- they were wrong. As they were with the ordination of women. As I'm sure they are eventually going to realize about gay people -- with the possible exception of Texas (which should be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century sometime around the year 2050).

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN??? Your posts are always so enjoyable...I must say, I laugh @ at least one a day! As for Texas..have them grab Oklahoma's hand and pull them too. I was just reading in the paper today, they are STILL trying to pass an antiabortion bill because politicians want to force women that are raped/incest to carry their violent pregnancies full term. At the same time, they now allow judges to keep guns with them in court. Oh, yeah...and while they want to outlaw abortions...they have record #sof executions (after texas)...but damn those gays...they're the worst of it all.

 

[davedjy]

Show me that you've died to what bound you by belief in Jesus Christ and I'll agree that you're not bound by the law - you'll have it on your heart and obey it without even blinking!

Jesus did not come to fulfill the old Leviticus laws, lol!!!!!

 

[davedjy]

You are free to keep thinking as you do, Brieuse. But as you know you are in the minority on this topic. Satan is real whether you believe it or not.

Satan is real. He ruined my life, until I found my life as a gay man. I was full of anxiety, stomach problems, and on welfare, till I found myself. Yes, Satan is alive and well.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Jesus did not come to fulfill the old Leviticus laws, lol[/SIZE]!!!!!

LOL!

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

 

[RMDY]

Jesus did not come to fulfill the old Leviticus laws, lol!!!!!

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.


Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them: 'After those days,' says the Lord, 'I will put my laws on their heart, I will also write them on their mind;' " then he says,

So you see, the law is written within our hearts. We must put these moral laws within our hearts, not to condemn others, but to abstain from such things so that we don't rebel against God.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Satan is real. He ruined my life, until I found my life as a gay man. I was full of anxiety, stomach problems, and on welfare, till I found myself. Yes, Satan is alive and well.

Agreed. Hiding, running, ashamed, all took a toll on me until I accepted the way God made me. Never looked back, and have never been happier. The evilness of Satan hasn't returned.

 

[davedjy]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.


Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them: 'After those days,' says the Lord, 'I will put my laws on their heart, I will also write them on their mind;' " then he says,

So you see, the law is written within our hearts. We must put these moral laws within our hearts, not to condemn others, but to abstain from such things so that we don't rebel against God.

Out of context. The old laws of Leviticus do not apply anymore, and that was an idolatry sex violation. Again, please do some research before debating I or anyone else here. Go to places like religioustolerance.org, and learn both sides before debating.

 

[davedjy]

Agreed. Hiding, running, ashamed, all took a toll on me until I accepted the way God made me. Never looked back, and have never been happier. The evilness of Satan hasn't returned.

Good for you. You are an overcomer!

 

[RMDY]

Out of context. The old laws of Leviticus do not apply anymore, and that was an idolatry sex violation. Again, please do some research before debating I or anyone else here. Go to places like religioustolerance.org, and learn both sides before debating.

Where does it say "idolatry sex"? Present scripture that declares it to be idolatry sex. God declared those things to be detestable ritually and morally.

- Rob

 

[RMDY]

Agreed. Hiding, running, ashamed, all took a toll on me until I accepted the way God made me. Never looked back, and have never been happier. The evilness of Satan hasn't returned.

I almost turned from God out of frustation from having to abstain from touching yourself and pre-marital sex: I am glad I didn't. I abstained from those things because I love God. My body "desires" to do those things, but I don't.

Speaking of which, What do you make of those single hetrosexuals who have no lover in their lives, what do you make of those people? They are just as happy that way as they would be if they had a lover, because their heart is with God and not in their fleshly passions. They have just as much trouble as you would if you had to abstain from homosexuality.

"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"
-Matthew 15:11

 

[RMDY]

Good for you. You are an overcomer!

"If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
-Matthew 15:14

Agreed. Hiding, running, ashamed, all took a toll on me until I accepted the way God made me. Never looked back, and have never been happier. The evilness of Satan hasn't returned.

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
-Matthew 15:14

'What comes out of a man is what makes him "unclean." For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man "unclean."'"
Mark 7:20-23

"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."
-Mark 9:42

 

[MercyBurst]

Jesus did not come to fulfill the old Leviticus laws, lol!!!!!

Well if Jesus didn't die for the Leveticus laws, then there isn't any grace for adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, witchcraft, or sodomy. And you think this is funny -- all these people going to hell without a chance. Man that's pretty sick.


Moses wrote all of these laws:

According to the Old Testament of Bible, these are the offenses which may have merited the death penalty for those living under the Jewish covenant and the Mosaic law.

1. Murder (Exodus 21:12, Exodus 21:15)
2. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
3. Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 21:18)
4. Juvenile delinquency - incorrigibility (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
5. Bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
6. Violations of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)
7. Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
8. Abominations (Leviticus 20:2)
9. Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16)
10. Incest (Leviticus 20:11)
11. Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
12. Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
13. False prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:5)
14. Worshipping a false god (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
15. Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
16. Sodomy (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13)
17. Sex with a woman betrothed to another (Deuteronomy 22:25)
18. False witness in a capital crime (Deuteronomy 19:16-20)
19. Fornication by daughters of priests (Leviticus 21:9)
20. Failure to abide by a decision of the High Court (Deuteronomy 17:12)
21. Unchastity (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)
22. Cursing someone (Leviticus 24:14)
23. Negligence resulting in death (Exodus 21:29)

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Out of context. The old laws of Leviticus do not apply anymore, and that was an idolatry sex violation. Again, please do some research before debating I or anyone else here. Go to places like religioustolerance.org, and learn both sides before debating.[/SIZE]

Yes, do go to religioustolerance.com, the main writer is an agnostic, with a BA in Engineering Physics. Engineering physics relates to these topics, how?

Was it an idolatry sex violation ? If so why did none of the Jewish scholars ever state that in the 3200 years +/- since Moses gave the law?

Here is a short quote from the much longer article on Sodomy, showing the interpretation of the relevant passages by ALL Jewish scholars since Moses.

[Note: All upper case in this citation appears in the original]
Talmud -- Sanhedrin 54a

MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS BESTIALITY ARE STONED. . . . Our Rabbis taught: If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]. . .

Sanhedrin 54b

This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? — From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.1 . . . whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused? — Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:2 and it is further said, . . .

Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused — R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. . . .

for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind. [sup]13[/sup] . . .

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Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), . . .(see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=415&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=386&letter=C

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.

2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14). (This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15). . . .

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=341&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=301&letter=L

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 3347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=689&letter=C​

"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”​

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity. "Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are … not relevant."​

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html​

 

[Der Alte]

Well if Jesus didn't die for the Leveticus laws, then there isn't any grace for adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, witchcraft, or sodomy. And you think this is funny -- all these people going to hell without a chance. Man that's pretty sick.

Moses wrote all of these laws:

According to the Old Testament of Bible, these are the offenses which may have merited the death penalty for those living under the Jewish covenant and the Mosaic law.

1. Murder (Exodus 21:12, Exodus 21:15)
2. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
3. Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 21:18)
4. Juvenile delinquency - incorrigibility (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
5. Bestiality (Leviticus 20:15)
6. Violations of the Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)
7. Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
8. Abominations (Leviticus 20:2)
9. Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16)
10. Incest (Leviticus 20:11)
11. Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
12. Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
13. False prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:5)
14. Worshipping a false god (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
15. Sacrificing to false gods (Exodus 22:20)
16. Sodomy (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13)
17. Sex with a woman betrothed to another (Deuteronomy 22:25)
18. False witness in a capital crime (Deuteronomy 19:16-20)
19. Fornication by daughters of priests (Leviticus 21:9)
20. Failure to abide by a decision of the High Court (Deuteronomy 17:12)
21. Unchastity (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)
22. Cursing someone (Leviticus 24:14)
23. Negligence resulting in death (Exodus 21:29)

As recorded in Jewish writings.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Capital Punishment.

According to these conclusions, [Exegesis of scripture in the preceding section] rabbinic law based on Pentateuchal authority, expressed or inferred, affixes death by stoning to each of the following eighteen [18] crimes:

1. Bestiality committed by man
---(Lev. xx. 15; Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, kedoshim, x. 1; Mek., Mishpa’im, 17).
2. Bestiality committed by woman
--- (Lev. xx. 16: Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, khedoshim, x. 3; Mek., Mishpatim, 17).
3. Blasphemy
--- (Lev. xxiv. 16; Sanh. vii. 4, 43a; Sifra, Emor, xix.).
4. Criminal conversation with a betrothed virgin
(Deut. xxii. 23, 24; Sanh. vii. 4, 66b; Sifre, Deut. 242).
5. Criminal conversation with one's own daughter-in-law
--- (Lev. xx. 12; Sanh. vii. 4, 53a; Sifra, khedoshim, ix. 13).
6. Criminal conversation with one's own mother
--- (Lev. xviii. 7, xx. 11; Sanh. vii. 4, 53a; Sifra, khedoshim, ix. 12).
7. Criminal conversation with one's own stepmother
--- (Lev. xviii. 8, xx. 11; Sanh. vii. 4, 53a; Sifra, khedoshim, ix. 12).
8. Cursing a parent
--- (Lev. xx. 9; Sanh. vii. 4, 66a; Mek., Mishpatim, 17; Sifra, khedoshim, ix. 7).
9. Enticing individuals to idolatry: "Mesit"
--- (Deut. xiii. 7-12 [A. V. 6-11]; Sanh. vii. 4, 67a; Sifre, Deut. 90).
10. Idolatry
--- (Deut. xvii. 2-7; Sanh. vii. 4, 60b; Sifre, Deut. 149).
11. Instigating communities to idolatry: "Maddiakh"
--- (Deut. xiii. 2-6 [A. V. 1-5]; Sanh. vii. 4, 67a; Sifre, Deut. 86).
12. Necromancy
--- (Lev. xx. 27; Sanh. vii. 4, 65a; Sifra,khedoshim, xi., end).
13. Offering one's own children to Molech
--- (Lev. xx. 2; Sanh. vii. 4, 64a; Sifra, khedoshim, viii., parashah 10, beginning).
14. Pederasty
--- (Lev. xx. 13; Sanh. vii. 4, 54a; Sifra, khedoshim, ix. 14).
15. Pythonism
--- (Lev. xx. 27; Sanh. vii. 4, 65a; Sifra, khedoshim, xi., end).
16. Rebelling against parents
--- (Deut. xxi. 18-21; Sanh. vii. 4, 68b; Sifre, Deut. 220).
17. Sabbath-breaking
--- (Num. xv. 32-36; Sanh. vii. 4; Sifre, Num. 114).
18. Witchcraft
--- (Ex. xxii. 17 [A. V. 18]; Sanh. vii. 4, 67a; Mek., Mishpatim, 17).

Mode of Judgment.

[1] Capital punishment in rabbinic law, or indeed any other punishment, must not be inflicted, except by the verdict of a regularly constituted court (Lesser Sanh.) of three-and-twenty qualified members (Sanh. i. 1; Sifre, Num. 160), and except on the most [2] trustworthy and convincing testimony of at least two qualified eye-witnesses to the crime (Deut. xvii. 6, xix. 15; Sotah vi. 3; Sifre, Num. 161; ib. Deut. 150, 188; Sanh. 30a) who [3] must also depose that the culprit had been forewarned as to the criminality and the consequences of his project (Sanh. v. 1, 40b et seq.; see Hatraah). The culprit must be a person of legal age and of sound mind, and the crime [4] must be proved to have been committed of the culprit's free will and without the aid of others (see Abetment); and [5] if any one wilfully kills him before conviction, a charge of murder will lie against such perpetrator (Tosef., B. . ix. 15; Sifre, Num. 161; compare 'Ar. i. 3, 6b). Nor may an execution be deferred, except in the case of the “Zakhen mamre” (Sanh. xi. 4), or of a woman about to be delivered of a child ('Ar. i. 4), nor may it be carried out on a day sacred to religion (Mek., Mishpatim, 4; ib. Wayyakhhel; Yeb. 6b; Sanh. 35b). [6] On the day that the verdict is pronounced, the convict is led forth to execution (Sanh. 34a). Looking upon the sinner as upon the victim of folly (Sotah 3a), and considering death an expiation for misdeeds (Ber. 60a; Sanh. vi. 2; see Atonement), the Rabbis would not permit the protraction of the interval between sentence and execution, which they considered as the most terrible period in the convict's existence. These considerations prompted them to afford the convict every possible alleviation of the pains and sufferings concomitant with the execution, and to direct the execution itself so as to prevent the mutilation of the body, or to reduce such mutilation, where it is unavoidable—as in stoning or slaying—to a minimum. The Pentateuchal law (Lev. xix. 18) prescribes, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy-self”; and the Rabbis maintain that this love must be extended beyond the limits of social intercourse in life, and applied even to the convicted criminal who, “though a sinner, is still thy brother” (Mak. iii. 15; Sanh. 44a): “The spirit of love must be manifested by according him a decent death” (Sanh. 45a, 52a).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=128&letter=C
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