Haven't You Moved Pass Leviticus?

[TheFathersDaughter]

Were one to actually read my post one might actually discern that the early church was quite specific in what conduct was condemned. Do you really think playing dumb helps your argument?

Strange, I don't go to an early church. Remember, the early churches were tone to keeping servants too (servants is a kind word for slave).

 

[PinkTulip]

You say the law was abolished, but listen to what our savior said:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

So according to Jesus you have it wrong right from the start.

This debate is senseless.

These posts/arguments are senseless, and we should all just abandon it. Satan is truly deceitful. As you can see from these posts, Satan has blinded so many individuals from the truth. And I know most people will read these thread and call me a bigot, ignorant, etc. However, it is written throughout the Bible that sexual immortality is wrong, and people continually test God’s truth and replace it with their own. Next month the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada will once AGAIN ask the Holy Spirit whether same sex marriage should be blessed. This is the second time they are asking God because he said yes to the Eastern Synod and no to the Western Synod. Does this make any sense?? By doing this again they are making God into a liar. If homosexuality and same-sex marriage were OK with God, there would be no need to vote. If there was any truth to homosexuality, there would be no division.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Strange, I don't go to an early church. Remember, the early churches were tone to keeping servants too (servants is a kind word for slave).[/SIZE]

Keep playing dumb long enough and people will believe you are not playing.

Irrelevant to the discussion but the doulos in the N.T. were bond servants usually from poor families who contracted for a specific period of time to provide money to support their families. Next irrelevant, frivolous objection?

 

[Brieuse]

These posts/arguments are senseless, and we should all just abandon it. Satan is truly deceitful. As you can see from these posts, Satan has blinded so many individuals from the truth. And I know most people will read these thread and call me a bigot, ignorant, etc. However, it is written throughout the Bible that sexual immortality is wrong, and people continually test God’s truth and replace it with their own. Next month the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada will once AGAIN ask the Holy Spirit whether same sex marriage should be blessed. This is the second time they are asking God because he said yes to the Eastern Synod and no to the Western Synod. Does this make any sense?? By doing this again they are making God into a liar. If homosexuality and same-sex marriage were OK with God, there would be no need to vote. If there was any truth to homosexuality, there would be no division.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4

 

[brightmorningstar]

The thing is, the judgement law has been abolished for those in Christ.
The Bible should not be used legalistically with sound-bite proof texts it should understood holistically.
Romans 1 also says that God will judge the sinner. Of all the sins mentioned in Romans 1 , idolotry and same-sex are singled out for particular attention.

In my opinion the only scriptural challenege I see to the Bible is people denying what it actuallys says, which in the absence of any scriptural evidence for same-sex sex is merely disbelief in my opinion.

 

[Brieuse]

""And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain [torn in two pieces] from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent [were torn]. Matthew 27:51."

I've always thought of that passage as symbolic of Jesus abolishing the old law.

 

[UberLutheran]

The freedom (and the discipline) given to us by Paul in Romans 13-15 and Galatians is just too much for many people to take.

So, the sinful, legalistic authoritarian in many people comes out and starts putting as many "thou shalts" and "shoulds" with the gift of salvation given to us by Christ — and before we know it, we're right back to following an authoritarian set of laws administered by — authoritarians!

Image that.

There's a reason a lot of conservative, authoritarian men don't want women preaching, and it has very little to do with 1 Timothy 2: it's because these conservative, authoritarian men are not about to give up their power without a fight!

Same reason goes as to why a lot of these same conservative authoritarians don't want gays and lesbians in their churches — of course, gays and lesbians good enough to tithe, and we're good enough to help the churches fill their coffers so the church can keep its doors open; but God forbid that gays and lesbians be allowed to share their God-given gifts with the church and usurp some of that power which so many of those conservative authoritarians desperately want to keep for themselves.

Look at so many church councils, vestries, boards and diaconates — how many of those people have been there 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years; and how many of those have been running the church with an iron hand? Stifling any innovation? And always using those same seven words where the Devil resides: "We've never done it THAT way before!"

That's where Leviticus comes in handy. Of course, these same authoritarians realize that the rest of Leviticus no longer applies, although some of them are desperately trying to get as much to apply to others which conveniently ignoring any parts of Leviticus — or Exodus, or Numbers, or Deuteronomy or the rest of the Old Testament — which might apply to them; but Leviticus sure comes in handy when trying to keep certain people in their place so these same authoritarians don't have to give up any of their precious power!

And that's what it's really all about — power; pride ("I can run this church and I don't need your help"); and control ("This is the way we've always done it, and this is the way we're always going to do it") — and there's a little three-letter acronym which describes the anti-Christian, truly self-ish behavior on the part of these authoritarians:

Easing
God
Out.

 

[UberLutheran]

These posts/arguments are senseless, and we should all just abandon it. Satan is truly deceitful. As you can see from these posts, Satan has blinded so many individuals from the truth. And I know most people will read these thread and call me a bigot, ignorant, etc. However, it is written throughout the Bible that sexual immortality is wrong, and people continually test God’s truth and replace it with their own. Next month the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada will once AGAIN ask the Holy Spirit whether same sex marriage should be blessed. This is the second time they are asking God because he said yes to the Eastern Synod and no to the Western Synod. Does this make any sense?? By doing this again they are making God into a liar. If homosexuality and same-sex marriage were OK with God, there would be no need to vote. If there was any truth to homosexuality, there would be no division.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4

I'm a great deal older than you, but I do remember exactly the same thing being said in the churches about blacks and interracial marriages back in the 1950s and 1960s.

The same kinds of Scriptures were used the same way to argue that blacks (and Hispanics) were inferiors, that they needed to be "protected" by whites, that it was "God's will" for blacks to worship in black churches and whites to worship in white churches — and anybody who dissented had "a demon" and "was deceived" and a "hypocritical liar" and their "consciences were seared as with a hot iron".

Interesting, isn't it — that the same people who want to keep us out of "their" churches are the same people who get so indignant when gays and lesbians form their own churches where they can worship God — and who actively try to shut down the new churches.

Here's a clue: it's not your (in the universal meaning of the word) church. It's God's church — and if we're going to start excluding people because they're not the "right" kind of sinners or they haven't "repented" to your satisfaction, then the church really ought to shut its doors and close up shop once for all because nobody is "the right kind" of sinner.

But, if it really bothers anybody — PM me and I'll send the name and address of the Bishop of the synod in which I reside, and they can request my excommunication because I'm gay. Here I stand: I can do no other. God help me.

 

[UberLutheran]

I'm so sorry that apparently Romans 1 was removed from your Bibles guys, but you may want to try and find one that includes it ...

I'm sorry that apparently Romans 2 through 16 has been removed from the Bibles of so many of the conservative authoritarians here, but you may want to try and find one which includes those chapters because the focus of the Letter to the Romans really isn't about homosexuality.

For that matter, neither is the focus of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and the Revelation.

 

[UberLutheran]

You say the law was abolished, but listen to what our savior said:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

So according to Jesus you have it wrong right from the start.

This debate is senseless.

Then it sounds like what you're saying is that Jesus reconciles us to God by requiring that we obey the Law, in toto; and that anybody who says he believes in Christ but does not follow the Law in toto is not a Christian.

That, of course, is in direct contrast to what Paul said in Romans 3 through 15 and the entire book of Galatians.

Did Jesus tell you something he didn't tell Paul?

Or do you have it wrong from the start, MercyBurst?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Brieuse,

I've always thought of that passage as symbolic of Jesus abolishing the old law.

Jesus says he hasnt come to abolish it but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17, for those in Christ, Ephesians 2. and most of Romans.

 

[Brieuse]

Dear Brieuse,
Jesus says he hasnt come to abolish it but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17, for those in Christ, Ephesians 2. and most of Romans.

ful·fill also ful·fil play_w("F0354700")http://img.tfd.com/play.swf (f

l-f

l

)tr.v. ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills also ful·fils 1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Uberlutheran,

The same kinds of Scriptures were used the same way to argue that blacks (and Hispanics) were inferiors

This generalisation could be used for all kinds of things, and is thus meaningless in my opinion. Scriptures were used to support the slave trade, but they were also used to stop it.
Let me ask again. Which scriptures can be used to support homosexual pratice?

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Dear Uberlutheran,

This generalisation could be used for all kinds of things, and is thus meaningless in my opinion. Scriptures were used to support the slave trade, but they were also used to stop it.
Let me ask again. Which scriptures can be used to support homosexual pratice?

Saying it's meaningless is akin to denying the Holocaust ever happened. You can't just out and say "Well they were wrong, but that's irrelevant". They used the Bible consistently to justify the means (So did Hitler, speaking of the Holocaust). The fact that we figured out their ways were unjust came by faith and actually reinterpreting the LOVE of God not the condemnation of any sin or so-called sins.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear TheFathersDaughter,
Its nothing to do with denyong history. Scripture defines for us the love of God. The question is what scripture can be used to support homosexual practice?

 

[PinkTulip]

??

 

[PinkTulip]

I'm a great deal older than you, but I do remember exactly the same thing being said in the churches about blacks and interracial marriages back in the 1950s and 1960s.

The same kinds of Scriptures were used the same way to argue that blacks (and Hispanics) were inferiors, that they needed to be "protected" by whites, that it was "God's will" for blacks to worship in black churches and whites to worship in white churches — and anybody who dissented had "a demon" and "was deceived" and a "hypocritical liar" and their "consciences were seared as with a hot iron".

Interesting, isn't it — that the same people who want to keep us out of "their" churches are the same people who get so indignant when gays and lesbians form their own churches where they can worship God — and who actively try to shut down the new churches.

Here's a clue: it's not your (in the universal meaning of the word) church. It's God's church — and if we're going to start excluding people because they're not the "right" kind of sinners or they haven't "repented" to your satisfaction, then the church really ought to shut its doors and close up shop once for all because nobody is "the right kind" of sinner.

But, if it really bothers anybody — PM me and I'll send the name and address of the Bishop of the synod in which I reside, and they can request my excommunication because I'm gay. Here I stand: I can do no other. God help me.

FIRST, I never said gays were not welcome in the ELCIC - you said that. Second, it is very disturbing when the ELCIC votes twice on the issue of same sex marriage because they did not like what God said the first time.

My husband and I asked the Bishop of Canada how they vote on issues. He claims they ask the Holy Spirit. So we asked why God contracted himself in the vote and he hung up on us. So here we are in the church - we put God to a vote and call him a liar when we don't get the vote we want. Go figure.


The church is only doing this to get people into the ELCIC because it is dying. They don't care about same sex marriages - they care about attendance. Can they honestly say that gays will flock to the ELCIC churches and attendance will double? I have huge doubts.


What will be the end result of this come June- the church splitting in half. If there were any truth in the issue, the church would not split and there would be no division among us.


This is the problem with the whole issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage – people thinking they know the truth rather than relying on God.


Another thing, what churches are flourishing in Canada and the US? Evangelical, fundamental churches – those that stand by Scripture and God’s word.



Uber, I would welcome you and your partner into my church. However, I cannot see the church blessing something God declared an abomination. You can say that the OT is outdated, doesn’t apply to Christians, etc etc. There are moral, universal truths in the OT that still apply today – murder, stealing, cheating etc. And sexual immorality was a huge one. If we start to allow one thing, what is next? If I cheated on my husband or participated in the number of sexually immoral things God declared wrong in the Bible, I would hope the church would tell me to repent of it - not call it holy.


The issue of interracial marriage - God never declared it an abomination for different races to be married. He does say we should not marry unbelievers, and I agree with that.


Sorry this is so long, I just get my undies in a bundle when I think of how the ELCIC is going down a very disturbing road on a variety of issues.

 

[Brieuse]

??

You said we were being deceived by Satan. Wasn't very nice.

 

[PinkTulip]

You said we were being deceived by Satan. Wasn't very nice.

You are free to keep thinking as you do, Brieuse. But as you know you are in the minority on this topic. Satan is real whether you believe it or not.

 

[RMDY]

""And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain [torn in two pieces] from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent [were torn]. Matthew 27:51."

I've always thought of that passage as symbolic of Jesus abolishing the old law.

Its symbolic in allowing us to go directly to God and eliminated the need of the primarily role of a priest. Now that we can all go directly to God and ask for forgiveness for our sins.