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Featured Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 25:46:

    Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
    "And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

    The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
    "And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

    The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
    "And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
    "And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

    The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
    "And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
    1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

    A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
    "And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

    The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

    The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
    "And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

    The People's New Covenant, 1925
    "And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
    "And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

    The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
    "And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

    The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
    "Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    ------------------------

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    ----------------------------


    David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

    "None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

    He quotes Mt.12:31:

    "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

    And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

    He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

    Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

    "Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

    (pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit does not refute Biblical universalism:

    Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin


    ------------------------


    Scripture opposes the "good news" of endless torments.

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

    Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!

    Statement of Faith -- Please Read

    7 Myths About Universalism

    The Evangelical Universalist: Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism

    The Evangelical Universalist: Will Hitler be Saved?

    The Evangelical Universalist: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    Fifteen Reasons for Preaching Christian Universalism

    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
    The Eons
    EONS AND WORLDS

    forever and ever: a poor translation:

    Chapter Five
    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment


    Aeon - Wikipedia
    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    "Jesus loves you. Jesus will make sure you burn forever if you don't love him back. Jesus is the savior of the world. Jesus will not actually save most people. Jesus is a strong victor and a king. Jesus can't overcome resistance to his will. Jesus tells you to love your enemies. Jesus will torture his own. Are you tired of confusion?"

    Merciful Truth : Eternal Torment, Godly Love?

    Can Children Go to Hell?

    The Church Fathers on Universalism
    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
    Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
    The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church


    Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    "The love of God is greater far
    Than tongue or pen can ever tell
    It goes beyond the highest star
    And reaches to the lowest hell"

    The guilty pair, bowed down with care
    God gave His Son to win
    His erring child He reconciled
    And pardoned from his sin

    Could we with ink the ocean fill
    And were the skies of parchment made
    Were every stalk on earth a quill
    And every man a scribe by trade

    To write the love of God above
    Would drain the ocean dry
    Nor could the scroll contain the whole
    Though stretched from sky to sky

    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah

    O love of God, how rich and pure!
    How measureless and strong!
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  2. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF Supporter

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    Interesting set of heretical translations you have there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  3. jax5434

    jax5434 Member

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    I am not sure I am following your thought completely but that has never stopped me before.
    The word aiōnios used in vs 46 carries the meaning of without end, never to cease, or everlasting. It is translated in various places as "eternal" "everlasting" or "forever". It is nowhere translated as "for a long time" Had Jesus intended to say "for a long time" he could used the same wording as in Mat 25:19.
    There is also a difference between unforgiven sin and unforgivable sin.
    Unforgiven sin are those sins for which the person has not repented and asked for forgiveness. They can be forgiven if and only if they are repented of. Because a sin can be forgiven does not mean that it has been or will be.
    There is only one sin that is unforgiveable. Unforgivable means that there is no repentance possible for that sin. Even if at some point the person wants to. I believe the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. How do you blaspheme the Holy Spirit? By dying in rejection of his witness of Jesus Christ.
    God Bless
    Jax
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    ٠ “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
    The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
    ٠Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
    Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
    ٠From Clement of Rome (150AD)
    If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
    But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
    ٠From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
    This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
    Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
    From Tatian (160AD)
    We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
    ٠From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
    We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
    ٠From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
    Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
    ٠From Irenaeus (189AD)
    …Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
    The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
    ٠From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
    All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
    ٠From Tertullian (197AD)
    These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
    Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
    Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
    If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
    ٠From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
    Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ … to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
    ٠From Felix Minucius (226AD)
    I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
    ٠From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
    An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
    Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
    ٠From Lactantius (307AD)
    But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
    ٠From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)...And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Is a mechanical thing rather than a rule. You can't be forgiven if you
    cut off communication with the forgiver. If you forcibly reject the
    Holy Spirit, by cursing it, or mocking it, or whatever, then you have cut off
    the channel for forgiveness. It's not a rule or a law. It's a mechanical thing.
    It's the one sin that leads to death of the soul.
     
  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So you are saying that any sins not acknowledged by a person remain in the "hell" column?
    Would this include any sins of omission or say accidental death of somebody that is not represented of?
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word aionios used in v.46 is the same used of the 3 days Jonah was in the sea. That is not a long time. So if Jesus meant a long time in v.46 He would have said long time, but instead He used a word that can mean any duration of time, long or short. For more examples of aion and aionios being used of finite durations:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    If Jesus wanted to say endless at v.46, He could have used the word "endless" (1 Tim.1:4) or "no end" (Lk.1:33) or "eternal" (AIDIOS, Rom.1:20). Since He didn't use such words, He doesn't teach endless punishment.


    Do you get this definition from Scripture? I'm not aware that Scripture explains what the sin of BHS is, or if anyone ever committed this sin. Even if they did, the penalty for it is not eternal, but limited to this age & the coming age (Mt.12:31-32). Yet Paul speaks of at least one age after the coming age (Eph.1:21; 2:7), making the penalty for this sin finite.

    For further comments on the BHS:

    Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are we mind readers and can say which word Jesus or any other Bible figure would or should have used in a particular situation?
    .....You referenced Rom 1:20.

    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous. How do we account for when aion(ios) refers to something which is not eternal?
    Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, [κόσμος/kosmos] and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    John 12:19
    (19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world [κόσμος/kosmos] is gone after him.

    John 14:17
    (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world [κόσμος/kosmos] cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.[κόσμος/kosmos]

    1 John 5:19
    (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [κόσμος/kosmos] lieth in wickedness.
    Can a person literally gain the "whole world?" Did the "whole world" literally follow Jesus? Can the "whole world" literally not receive Jesus? Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?" Did the entire world literally lie in wickedness? There is a word which describes how "world" is used in all these verses.

     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you consider Church Fathers to be inspired & true as the Scriptures?

    From the articles i read, scholars place the time of writing of the Epistle of Barnabas at various dates between 70 AD & 135 AD.

    The Greek word for "eternal" is αἰωνίου which is transliterated as eonian. With that understanding i see no reason to think the quote proves the author believed in endless punishment. He may have been a universalist.

    Many articles consider the Epistle of Barnabas to be of the Alexandrian school of Scriptural interpretation. Notable Church Fathers Clement & Origen of Alexandria were universalists. They quote from the epistle & regard it highly. OTOH the epistle is not known in ancient writings of other areas till significantly later than those two. All of this lends weight against the epistle supporting endless punishment.

    "There are then three doctrines of the Lord: The hope of life is the beginning and end of our faith. Righteousness is the beginning and end of judgment. Love of joy and of gladness is the testimony of the works of righteousness." (1:6)

    "Behold this is the fast which I chose," saith the Lord, "loose every bond of wickedness, set loose the fastenings of harsh agreements, send away the bruised in forgiveness, and tear up every unjust contract, give to the hungry thy bread, and if thou seest a naked man clothe him..." (3:3)

    That quote of the OP link is from chapter 20 verse 1 of the Epistle of Barnabas. The following site gives four English translations:

    1 But the way of the Black One is crooked and full of a curse. For it is a way of eternal death with punishment wherein are the things that destroy men's souls--idolatry, boldness, exhalation of power,...(J.B. Lightfoot)

    1 But the path of darkness is crooked and full of cursing, for it is the path of eternal death and punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul. Idolatry, boldness, the pride of power,...(Charles Hoole)

    1 But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power,...(Kirsopp Lake)

    1 But the Way of the Black One is crooked and full of cursing, for it is the way of death eternal with punishment, and in it are the things that destroy their soul: idolatry, frowardness, arrogance of power,...(Roberts-Donaldson)

    Epistle of Barnabas

    This following site gives some footnotes:

    But the way of darkness 1713 is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal 1714 death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, [etc]

    1713 Literally, “of the Black One.”
    1714 Cod. Sin. joins “eternal” with way, instead of death.

    Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol I: BARNABAS: Chapter XX.—The way of darkness.

    Here are two different Greek texts from 3 websites:

    1. Ἧ δὲ τοῦ μέλαος ὁδός ἐστιν σκολιὰ καὶ κατάρας μεστή. ὁδὸς ἐστιν θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας, ἐν ᾗ ἐστιν τὰ ἀπολλύντα τὴ ψυχὴν αὐτῶν· εἰδωλολατρεία, θρασύτης, ὕψος δυνάμεως, ὑπόκρισις, διπλοκαρδία, μοιχεία, φόνος, ἁρπαγή, ὑπερηφανία, μαγεία, πλεονεξία, ἀφοβία θεοῦ·

    The Twelve Apostles-Barnabas_b

    1.Η δε του μελανος οδος εστιν σκολια και καταρας μεστη. οδος γαρ εστιν θανατου αιωνιου μετα τιμωριας, εν η εστιν τα απολλυντα την ψυχην αυτων· ειδωλολατρεια, θρασυτης, υψος δυναμεως, υποκρισις, διπλοκαρδια, μοιχεια, φονος, αρπαγη, υπερηφανια, παραβασις, δολος, κακια, αυθαδεια, φαρμακεια, μαγεια, πλεονεξια, αφοβια θεου·

    The epistle of Barnabas.

    1. Ἧ δὲ τοῦ μέλαος ὁδός ἐστιν σκολιὰ καὶ κατάρας μεστή. ὁδὸς ἐστιν θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας, ἐν ᾗ ἐστιν τὰ ἀπολλύντα τὴ ψυχὴν αὐτῶν· εἰδωλολατρεία, θρασύτης, ὕψος δυνάμεως, ὑπόκρισις, διπλοκαρδία, μοιχεία, φόνος, ἁρπαγή, ὑπερηφανία, μαγεία, πλεονεξία, ἀφοβία θεοῦ·

    Barnabbas - Greek

    The words "θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας" seem to translate as "death eonian with punishment".

    The Greek word for "punishment" is timoria.

    "Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416." Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

    In the case of "the satisfaction of him who inflicts", with men their "satisfaction" in punishing others is often sadistic & selfish. OTOH for the God Who - is - love - what satisfies Him? Humbled, corrected, saved and transformed beings that He created.

    The Greek word - timoria - translated "punishment" is also used in Hebrews 10:28-29:

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    forever and ever: a poor translation:

    Chapter Five
    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I think the OP started off with a wrong premise.
    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel.

    These people are called cursed. They did not do good deeds because they were evil. 1 John 3:7-8
    3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    If you are righteous, you do righteous things.
    If you are evil, you do evil things.

    We don't do good things to become righteous, we do good things because we are righteous.
    An unrighteous person, it does not matter how many good things they do, they can't become righteous that way.
    Matthew 7:21-23
    7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These people said they did good works in Jesus' name, but because Jesus never knew them they will be punished for eternity.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Absolutely ridiculous question. I quoted more than Barnabas but you chose to address only one which you think you can disprove by spamming several random quotes.
    I have addressed the rest of your post several times in other threads

    Irrelevant.
    Liddell, Scott Jones Lexicon of Classical GreekG166
    αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Heb_9:12 : —

    1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Rom_16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Gen_9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Mat_25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2Ti_1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2Co_4:18.
    2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
    3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
    4. Adv. -ίως eternally νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
    5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88.
    Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)
    [BDAG] αἰώνιος

    αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157),ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 AD] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
    1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
    2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
    3. pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I BC] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109-28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12.κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2(cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9.πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11(ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳbe glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217-28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why, my post to create this topic was full of Scripture passages & comments about them. And not one Early Church Father quote. Yet you responded with a list of cherry picked mistranslated ECF quotes. Hence my question:

    Do you consider Church Fathers to be inspired & true as the Scriptures?

    That's impossible, since it was the first time ever i've posted the vast majority of content in that post on this site.


    I've responded to you re the same or similar quotes several times before. Such as:

    "Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

    "Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

    I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

    It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

    Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

    The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
    SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

    -----------------------------

    (A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

    (B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

    (C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

    (1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures,
    do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end
    of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

    "It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not,
    indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

    The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

    (2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works
    of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

    "...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

    (Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

    If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

    (3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


    (4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil
    and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

    Jerome says:

    "I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

    Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

    "This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

    "The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

    "Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

    " "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory


    The Church Fathers on Universalism

    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

    Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

    The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism





     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Thanks for clearing that up - I couldn't make heads nor tails of all that.

    It is not Bible translations that deceive people, since people can be saved with the Reader's Digest Version, or even a JW's version of the Bible, or even just one chapter of the Bible if they read it SEEKING THE CREATOR - the CREATOR Who Gives Understanding,
    the CREATOR Who LOVES revealing the TRUTH to little children who trust and rely on HIM,
    even if their family, neighborhood and schools all are against Jesus. (like in some other countries quite obviously and dramatically and violently).

    Just one touch , one revelation, one breath of life, from Yahweh,
    is all that may be needed FOR LIFE ! ETERNAL LIFE EVEN ! as HE PLEASES.

    Regardless of the translation (yes, even with all the errors it might have -
    after all,
    when someone can speak directly to the AUTHOR, the errors no longer lead them astray.... (or rather also, when the AUTHOR speaks to them, as He is Pleased to DO, if they ask for HIS HELP)
     
  14. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    There is nothing in this world which would make me happier than to find in the end that you were right and I was wrong.

    You've obviously given this doctrine a lot of thought. You've done a good job of researching the internet and cutting a pasting your findings for us to consider.

    I certainly don't consider your position heresy or anything like it.

    But I don't believe that the scriptures come down on your side. :)
     
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  15. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd rather not speculate on such things which AFAIK Scripture doesn't address.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no "punished for eternity" in that passage.

    Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that
    has no end, as you deserve"

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

    "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless punishment it's next to nothing.

    The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.


    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    7 Myths About Universalism

    The Evangelical Universalist: Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism

    The Evangelical Universalist: Will Hitler be Saved?

    The Evangelical Universalist: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,689
    Anabaptist
    I'm not sure if any heresy (define heresy?) was posted or not in what you referred to,
    but
    you do have a most polite (hopefully always Godly) attitude and way of putting it
    when someone departs from the clear message of God's Word.

    Thanks be to God our Father for His Great and Glorious Salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior !
    Amen.
     
  19. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    +2,535
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The Scripture is clear if you don't accept Jesus as your LORD and Savior, you will spend eternity being punished.
    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    God will not force anybody into Heaven against there will.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The title of this thread is asking about being deceived by your bible translation. You seem to have confidence in the men who wrote yours, but is it approved by God?

    Some more literal versions read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
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