Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Hillsage

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The Scripture is clear if you don't accept Jesus as your LORD and Savior, you will spend eternity being punished.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Let's see, this verse says "he who believeth hath LIFE". So tell me, are you in heaven? IF not then 'are you not "believing in the Son"? Or could this verse be talking about something your theology doesn't even allow you to possibly think?

God will not force anybody into Heaven against there will.
Free will for being saved/born again, is not scriptural...actually it is contrary to scripture.

JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In other words, if God didn't first "call, draw, choose, predestine, ordain YOU to believe"......you aren't getting saved with your 'supposed' free will.


ACT 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Do you know what the Greek definition of "appointed/tasso" means in the above verse?


5021 tasso {tas'-so}: prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses)
(1) to put in order, to station
(1.a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

IOW, God has a plan for his whole creation that most 'claiming knowledge' don't know about. Especially for those called in this age....or as the above tasso says this FIRST 'order, arrangement, assigned place.


1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I hope this 'flaming fire' of torture (your opinion) isn't anything the fire that our GOD is.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I mean, what could possibly happen to YOU if even you were "baptized with the Holy Spirit and FIRE"????? Or maybe worse, what if it was YOU who was going to be one of those "every man shall be salted with FIRE"? What could possibly happen in such fire as God produces?

ROM 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Hopefully YOUR ungodliness and YOUR unrighteousness will be dealt with God's fire in this age in which you were LUCKY enough to be "called, drawn, choosen, predestined, ordained to believe".
 
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Der Alte

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...."Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)." . . .
When one quote mines, cherry picks and quotes various writers because they appear to support ones assumptions/presuppositions, without checking and verifying for themselves, there is the danger of quoting something as truth which in fact is false. "immo quam plurimi" does not mean "vast majority" it means "indeed how many". And just because Augustine, Basil or whomever makes a claim that does not mean that it is true. And even if a large number of people hold a particular belief that does not make it true. For example how many millions of Muslims are in the world?
 
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Doug Melven

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The title of this thread is asking about being deceived by your bible translation. You seem to have confidence in the men who wrote yours, but is it approved by God?
I prefer the KJV. But I check other translations. I check the Greek and Hebrew words.

Let's see, this verse says "he who believeth hath LIFE". So tell me, are you in heaven? IF not then 'are you not "believing in the Son"? Or could this verse be talking about something your theology doesn't even allow you to possibly think?
I have Christ in me, the Giver of Life.
Eternal life is mine now. Just because I am not in Heaven yet does not mean I don't have eternal life.
Colossians 1:27 Christ in me the Hope of glory.

I hope this 'flaming fire' of torture (your opinion) isn't anything the fire that our GOD is.
NOT my opinion. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
New International Version
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

New Living Translation
in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.

English Standard Version
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
in a fire of flame, inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus,

New American Standard Bible
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

King James Bible
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

International Standard Version
in blazing fire. He will take revenge on those who do not know God and on those who refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

NET Bible
With flaming fire he will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
giving vengeance to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Whenever he executes vengeance in blazing fire on those who do not know God and on those who have not recognized The Good News of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He will take revenge on those who refuse to acknowledge God and on those who refuse to respond to the Good News about our Lord Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
with flaming fire, to take vengeance on those that do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

King James 2000 Bible
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

American King James Version
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

American Standard Version
rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:

Douay-Rheims Bible
In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;

English Revised Version
in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:

Webster's Bible Translation
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Weymouth New Testament
He will come in flames of fire to take vengeance on those who have no knowledge of God, and do not obey the Good News as to Jesus, our Lord.

World English Bible
giving vengeance to those who don't know God, and to those who don't obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,

Young's Literal Translation
in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
 
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Marvin Knox

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.............you do have a most polite (hopefully always Godly) attitude and way of putting itwhen someone departs from the clear message of God's Word.
Not always polite and sometimes not Godly either.

But I'll continue to work on it.:)

The ones who really get me going are the works not as a result of salvation but as a means to salvation types. I believe there's a fine line between not believing in eternal security and believing a different gospel than I have believed.

Some people here in the forum seem to have crossed that line.
 
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ClementofA

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"immo quam plurimi" does not mean "vast majority" it means "indeed how many".

My post offered two different scholars translations, including "very many". Your reply referred to no (zero) scholars.

And just because Augustine, Basil or whomever makes a claim that does not mean that it is true.

I quoted 4 different authors who all concur. All of about the same time in history. What is the chance they were all wrong about what was being believed in their own times?

And even if a large number of people hold a particular belief that does not make it true. For example how many millions of Muslims are in the world?

I didn't suggest it makes it true. Though a comment i was replying to did.

7 Myths About Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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NOT my opinion. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
New International Version
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

The text is not a difficult one to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR).

Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionian, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved.

Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)


The Endless HellFire Boys Club has cloned many translations supporting their view. Does that make them right? What if a billionaire published 1000 bible translations all saying God is Hitler, would the sheer numbers of versions make them true?

Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

And the Greek word for "destruction" (olethros, 2 Thess.1:9) often refers to mere death, or a punishment, or type of ruin that is temporary or reparable:

Untitled

A lexicon re olethros at the following url states:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

ὄλεθρος — с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."


Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Doug Melven

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Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)
I bolded the words in question. They look eternal to me.
Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
I checked the Septuagint, copied and pasted Jonah 1:17 into a Greek to English translator and this is what I got.

and he commanded a large herd to swallow Jonah and Jonas in the throat of the hail three days and a frigid night

There is nothing about forever here.
 
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Der Alte

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My post offered two different scholars translations, including "very many". Your reply referred to no (zero) scholars.
You are correct I quoted from Google translate.
I quoted 4 different authors who all concur. All of about the same time in history. What is the chance they were all wrong about what was being believed in their own times?
No, zero, none of the "authors" you quoted lived during the period in question and did not quote any references in support of their opinions.
I didn't suggest it makes it true. Though a comment i was replying to did.
If you think naming any number of people who support a particular view does not "suggest,""show,"prove" that it is true what is your purpose in referring to them?
 
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Der Alte

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The text is not a difficult one to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR).
Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionian, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.
Both the Liddell, Scott, Jones [LSJ] Lexicon of Classical Greek and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Ginrich [BDAG] Lexicon of New Testament Greek define αἰώνιος, as eternal and αἰών as eternity.
Now you can rejoice in the Good News!
Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:
The good news ignore the lexicons because we can find "translations" by individuals which support universalism
(Rotherham)(CLNT)(YLT)
What makes these "translations" more reliable than the lexicons?
The Endless HellFire Boys Club has cloned many translations supporting their view. Does that make them right? What if a billionaire published 1000 bible translations all saying God is Hitler, would the sheer numbers of versions make them true?
Universalists have their pet versions with no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence that they are correct. Nothing but the author's opinion.
Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:
Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)
αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157),ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 AD] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I BC] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109-28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12.κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2(cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9.πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11(ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳbe glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217-28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.
 
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Doug Melven

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ClementofA

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I bolded the words in question. They look eternal to me.

For "eonian" Webster's dictionary says:

" lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time"

The other two translations referred to an "age":

Definition of AGE


I checked the Septuagint, copied and pasted Jonah 1:17 into a Greek to English translator and this is what I got.

and he commanded a large herd to swallow Jonah and Jonas in the throat of the hail three days and a frigid night

There is nothing about forever here.

From the beginning of the link i gave you:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).

¨ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).

¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).

¨ Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).

¨ Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).

¨ A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).

¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).

¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).

¨ These “stones” are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?

¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).

¨ God dwells in Solomon’s temple forever [olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).

¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).

¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).

¨ Israel’s judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).

¨ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).

As we can see, olam does not mean “eternal” though it can last a very long time.

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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ClementofA

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The Good News is the Gospel that I am not ashamed of, for it is the power of God unto salvation TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES.

Evidently everyone will believe.

I really don't care about Greek mythology. What is in God's Word?

The point was the meaning of words used in the Bible.
 
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ClementofA

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No, zero, none of the "authors" you quoted lived during the period in question and did not quote any references in support of their opinions.


My point is they all lived about the same time - as each other.

All 4 of them.

If you think naming any number of people who support a particular view does not "suggest,""show,"prove" that it is true what is your purpose in referring to them?

To offer evidence that many people supported the view.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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For "eonian" Webster's dictionary says:
" lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time"
The other two translations referred to an "age":
From the beginning of the link i gave you:
Jonah was in the fish forever [
olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
¨ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [
olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever [
olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
¨ Hills are everlasting [
olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
¨ Mountains are everlasting [
olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).
¨ A slave serves his master forever [
olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [
olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [
olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
¨ These “stones” are to be a memorial forever [
olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [
olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).
¨ God dwells in Solomon’s temple forever [
olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [
olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [
olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
¨ Israel’s judgment lasts forever [
olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
¨ I will make you an eternal [
olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).
As we can see, olam does not mean “eternal” though it can last a very long time.
Thirty five [35] OT verses which define the word “olam.”
Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee,
and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.
Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.
Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion,
unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.
Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth
it, that men should fear before him.
In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.
Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.
Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.
In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.
Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.
Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."
In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.
Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.
Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which
is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.
Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them,
even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
[“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Ages” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
.
In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.
Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.
Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign
that shall not be cut off.”
In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.
[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.
In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.
Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.
Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward,
saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.
In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.
Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.
In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]
In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.”
“Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
 
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gordonhooker

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You are correct I quoted from Google translate.

No, zero, none of the "authors" you quoted lived during the period in question and did not quote any references in support of their opinions.

If you think naming any number of people who support a particular view does not "suggest,""show,"prove" that it is true what is your purpose in referring to them?

I would be staying well clear of Google translate if I was doing a serious word study of Koine Greek biblical text.
 
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ClementofA

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Both the Liddell, Scott, Jones [LSJ] Lexicon of Classical Greek and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Ginrich [BDAG] Lexicon of New Testament Greek define αἰώνιος, as eternal and αἰών as eternity.


And LSJ also defines aionios as age lasting. And aion as an epoch, age, duration of time. BDAG similarly. Those are only 2 sources amongst many one can cherry pick from.

Here are the 4 main definitions of aion by BDAG lexicon:

1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end
2. a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
3. the world as a spacial concept, the world
4. the Aeon as a person, the Aeon

( A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed, BDAG, 2000, pgs 32-33)
For the complete entry on aion by BDAG see:

BDAG on aionios

Liddell-Scott-Jones on aionios:

αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —

1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28;
αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον..
ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Matthew 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.;
πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Corinthians 4:18.

2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.

3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.

4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.

5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88.

Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, αἰώνιος
Greek Word Study Tool


The good news ignore the lexicons because we can find "translations" by individuals which support universalism


Who's ignoring Greek lexicons (i.e. scholars)? I cite them in support of my views and in opposition to yours, as you know. Here's another one:

From Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

Word Studies in the New Testament

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

Universalists have their pet versions with no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence that they are correct. Nothing but the author's opinion.


There's plenty of evidence, as you well know. See above.

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three





 
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Der Alte

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I would be staying well clear of Google translate if I was doing a serious word study of Koine Greek biblical text.
It was not Koine Greek the phrase in question is immo quam plurimi" which is Latin. Our friend found someone, somewhere, who 'translated" it as "vast majority." It does not mean "vast majority" it means "indeed how many". We have a phrase on some of our currency which reads E Pluribus Unum, out of many one. "Plurimi" appears to be related to "pluribus" so it is unlikely it means "majority."
 
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ClementofA

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It was not Koine Greek the phrase in question is immo quam plurimi" which is Latin. Our friend found someone, somewhere, who 'translated" it as "vast majority." It does not mean "vast majority" it means "indeed how many". We have a phrase on some of our currency which reads E Pluribus Unum, out of many one. "Plurimi" appears to be related to "pluribus" so it is unlikely it means "majority."


"plurimi...'most; or 'a majority'...":

Selections from Latin Classic Authors
edited by Francis Gardner [p.111]:

Selections from Latin Classic Authors

"..."the majority" (plurimi)...":

Diocles of Carystus. 2. Commentary
edited by Philip J. “van der” Eijk [p.271]:

Diocles of Carystus. 2. Commentary

"When Augustine described the Universalists as “indeed very many” (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a “vast majority” (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies. "
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Latin–English dictionary: Translation of the word "plurimus"

An Elementary Latin Dictionary
By Charlton Thomas Lewis [p.621]:

An Elementary Latin Dictionary
 
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Doug Melven

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From the beginning of the link i gave you:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).

¨ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [olam]
I saw the link.
I then looked at the Septuagint, and I did not see this word olam in the translation.
So with the very first verse I looked, I saw it was wrong, I didn't bother looking at any others.
And in Deuteronomy 23:3
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
Because of 23:4
Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

This isn't saying after 10 generations they can enter. Not even after 10 generations.

From A Moabite Shall Not Enter • Torah.org
A bastard must not enter God’s marriage group. Even after the tenth generation, he may not enter God’s marriage group. An Ammonite or Moabite may not enter God’s marriage group. They may never enter God’s marriage group, even after the tenth generation. This is because they did not greet you with bread and water when you were on the way out of Egypt, and also because they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to curse you. Do not despise the Edomite, since he is your brother. Do not despise the Egyptian, since you were an immigrant in his land. [Therefore,] children born to [members of these nations] in the third generation [after becoming proselytes] may enter God’s marriage group.
 
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