Happy Hanukkah

ArmyMatt said:

I think Israeli would include Israeli Orthodox Christians.

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Gxg (G²);64605022 said:

Others already addressed the issue of seeming desire to Judaize the Church - which was never verified. What was noted was that Gentiles never need to feel like they HAVE to do things pertinent to Jewish Christians since they're Gentile.

The false teaching of the Judaizing heresy was that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to become Christians - a VERY big issue in the first-century Church and one that the book of Galatians covers in considerable detail. Yeshua Ha Derek has not advocated at any point that the Gentiles here had to convert to Judaism in order to be accepted before the Lord - and thus, it'd be bad generalization to even try using the term "Judaizing" since it is OUT of context from the original setting it occurred in.

Appreciation for that which is Jewish and was done by early believers is not the same as saying one MUST engage in such in order to be pleasing to the Lord.....so we cannot be sloppy in the accusations we throw out - something which I shared on before (here as well...) when it came to discussing what Judaizing was according to the Early Church. As said earlier:

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I agree with what Lukaris noted as do others.....and this is not something that is unconventional in light of what has been practiced within the Orthodox Church - from the Syrian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church to Ethiopian Orthodox to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and many others including parts of Eastern Orthhodoxy (as mentioned before in #110 and #115/ #141 ) noting appreciation within Orthodoxy for Jewish culture /the meaning of Chanukah and ALL still practice Jewish customs extensively.



Speaking in terms of "We" is akin to sweeping generalization - as you nor any others agreeing do not represent EVERY single Orthodox poster who has been on the forum in its existence - and attempting to do so is a matter of again seeking to make things bigger than what they really are.

Additionally, no one said you ONLY reacted to one above the other (as it concerns the claim of language and Judaizing) - as what was emphasized in the post you responded to was the language issue.

I already noted, of course, in that SAME posting where you also responded to your own personal view of Judaizing without dealing with actually showing historically what was that was about ....and that is a matter of selective argumentation. Prior to that, I noted where I agreed with others on how using the term "Yeshua" can seemed forced if one doesn't go from that to using other forms of expression others are used to.

But avoiding where Gentile/Jewish believers appreciated the culture/customs God gave His people in the Early Church is a dynamic of failing to really be aware of what Jewish Christians did in the Early Church - and frankly, it can easily appear as simply having issues with Jewish culture as the Orthodox Church valued it. The issue of language is also an issue of being disingenuous in argumentation, IMHO, when it comes to making an imaginary standard that one's own standard of English (not perfect) that you or others prefer is what ALL here on the forum have always be for - and that is again a matter of a clique mindset without warrant. But TAW is NOT a clique - nor do a select group of others currently present speak for all matters within Orthodoxy or how all have felt on what is "standard English"......

This was noted earlier in #132 with how you (as well as others) already betrayed any argument or talk of feeling unnecessarily put through greater difficulty when not being able to acknowledge where you did the same thing and condoned it when language regarding the world of cyber-space....which is always changing/hard to keep up with.

The English utilized by yourself was NOT always understood nor something others cared to say anything on since they gave you space to speak with others agreeing with you.

Others have noted before how difficult it is to keep up with all of that as well as the various ways it can change - and it'd not be terribly difficult for one to go back/document each case where that has come up over the years. So long as people see you or others speaking with texting usage or phrases many have often noted DON'T make sense to everyone all the time, the argument will never fly with acting as if Yeshua Ha Derek was wrong for saying "Yeshua" or the only one not engaging in "standard English usage all understood"

As noted before, Hebrew in the Church concerning language may be unconventional for some - but it's not foreign to Orthodoxy when familar with the whole of what happens in the Orthodox world. Other Orthodox have said "Yeshua" (be priest or laity) in interaction/Divine Liturgy just as others preferring Spanish over English (be it Hispanics or Gentiles who grew up speaking both English and Spanish) grew up appreciating saying the name of the Lord in that language ....or in Arabic (if from there) or in Greek and others.


It's equivocation to avoid where you already used language/ideas relevant to you and others that other Orthodox neither cared for - or used in everyday language - and yet are trying to discriminate against another Orthodox who does so as do others in that parish. Until you and all of us speak proper English or you address where others have noted being tired of you bringing up phrases/ideas from other literary minds such as Chesterton or using certain forms of communication, it's pointless trying to focus on Yeshua Ha Derek.
The OP poster wished Happy Hannukah - that's not the same as claiming ALL within Orthodoxy HAVE to celebrate it since many in Orthodoxy have appreciated it while not celebrating it while others do enjoy it as they do Birthdays, Thanksgiving, Halloween and other things.

It was already noted where one made a false premise claiming the OP demanded all to celebrate it since he noted that wasn't his intention - but that premise is what was ran with by a couple. Thus, you avoided the issues while creating categories/straw men. And as said before, there can be no speaking on the Orthodox Church if not addressing the many aspects of it disagreeing with your own premise - from the Syrian Orthodox Church to the Coptic Orthodox Church to Ethiopian Orthodox to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and many others including parts of Eastern Orthhodoxy (as mentioned before in #110 and #115/ #141 ) noting ppreciation within Orthodoxy for Jewish culture /the meaning of Chanukah and ALL still practice Jewish customs extensively - there are multiple points of reference throughout the Orthodox Church where one has to ignore practice in order to fight against their own imagery of what they'd like to imagine the Church being.

If one wishes to fight against ALL of the Churches on that matter, of course, that's their own personal choice and one you'll have to deal with....but it is what it is and much of Orthodoxy DOES not support your assertions. Thus, IMHO, I think it'd behoove you to cease with making incomplete or outright erroneous claims on what the Church teaches when it's obvious that much of it was skipped past for the sake of argument - for it's self-evident that there was a lack of interaction with the Orthodox Church as it has expressed itself globally if not able to deal with much of the Church being opposite of your preferences in practice. The bottom line is that claiming "Judaizing" is pointless when one can ONLY claim that and yet ignore how the Church actually defined it - dealt with it - and addressed it. There's no warrant claiming judaizing as anything appreciative of Jewish customs/culture that the Early Church valued.

Not really concerned about reaching you since it was already apparent you made your mind up regardless of whether or not your ideology was in line with what has been deemed objective on English/American - and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Of course, claiming "most people" is specious seeing how many within the U.S/globally have long noted the same, regardless of protest on your part. Moreover, it was already addressed (as it concerns arguing via appeal to ridicule) with making a false scenario as you did earlier (#129 ) when making a wild argument that noting differences in English preferences is somehow akin to not believing in Absolute truth .Objective understandings of what "American" and "English" are have always included variety and this is noted within Linguistics for anyone dealing objectively with the issue - although you avoided it.
Again, sweeping claims don't make an argument since "everybody else" doesn't equate to all nor does it deal with all in the Orthodox Church.

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rusmeister said:

But when you started this Happy Hannukah thing, that blew a small thing up into a big thing. Now we have Jewish PRACTICE, not merely Hebrew words, being encouraged on us. People have died defending this faith for two thousand years, even in Hebraic. You seem to not have got the memo: modern Judaism is a different faith that denies Orthodoxy, and Hannukah is a holiday of that religion, just as the Entrance in the Temple of the Theotokos - Mother of God - is a holiday for us. All of your (and G's) words claiming that Hannukah is a valid Orthodox continuation of ancient Jewish tradition don't wash with us. There is no debate; it is simply not true. It's not heresy for a Jew to celebrate it, or greet us with his holiday, but if you insist on it, it IS heresy, precisely because you are Orthodox.

I don't see how we can recognize any communion with Christians who celebrate specifically religious holidays of other faiths. They have turned away from the Church, which tells US what our holy days are.

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