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[sojeru]

Hey Zico, this was the link you gave me http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch6.10.html

Deu 1:1 These [be] the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side(east of) Jordan in the wilderness(arabah), in the plain over against the Red [sea] (suph), between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.

Deu 1:2 ([There are] eleven days' [journey] from Horeb(sinai) by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/maps/map_sinai_peninsula.html

seir is right by the arabah-close to the wilderness of Zin, NOT as your friend says

"Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem, and Bethlehem<!--Bethlehem-->, the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh)."

hey Zico,

Deu 1:6 The LORD our God spake unto us in Horeb(SINAI), saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount:

Deu 1:7 Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all [the places] nigh thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates.

your link said:

However, if we look closely, we will find that the prophesy contains one more requirement. It tells us that this prophet from Paran who will bring a fiery new law shall come with 10,000 saints.
"When this verse Deut 33:2 was translated from Hebrew to English, the phrase '10,000 saints10,000 saints' was kept the same. But when this verse was translated from Hebrew to Arabic, the phrase '10,000 saints' was intentionally changed to 'holy valley', why?"

Prophet Muhammad the last messenger in the Bible, third edition, Kais Al-Kalbi, pp. 231-232.
--------------------------------------------------------------

In the Hebrew, it does not say the above, however it says:
Deu 33:2 Vayomer YHVH misinay ba v'zarach miseyir lamo hophia meyhar paran v'ata meRivevot kodesh mimino ashdot eysh da lamo.
---He said: YHVH came from Sinai; He shone upon them from Seir; He appeared from Mount Paran, and approached from Ribeboth kodesh Lightning flashing from his right hand.

In the septuagint (greek bible) translated into english it says:
Deut 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.

here is the ENTIRE context showing that this fiery(BURNING CLOUD=HASHEM) LAW(TORAH) is what Moses commanded (the Torah of Moses) to the Israelis
Deu 33:1 And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.
Deu 33:4 Moses commanded us a law, [even] the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.
Deu 33:5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people [and] the tribes of Israel were gathered together.

AND THEN MOSES BLESSED EACH TRIBE ACCORDINGLY TO THE ABOVE.
If you read it in the context the people of Yisrael are the saints.
If you read the hebrew it would not agree at all with what you or your friend believes.

Another thing, the location of Paran WAS and IS NOT in arabia.
Here's the opener:

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

The first children of Ishmael were more Coptic (egyptian) Ishmaelis than arab. And if Paran is Mecca and she traveled there, then she would have just gotten a wife for her son from the people living there.

however, it wasnt like that- we know that there were no people in the area where Hagar and Ishmael were- they were living in a dessert that was vaccant of humans living there save for them.
And we KNOW that it was the same with Moses- he had to travel 40 days to get to the other side of the dessert, from egypt, when he wasnt yet called, and he ended up around paran, where he met up with ishmaelis looking toward sinai.
So Hagar, since she was living in the wildreness with her son, between Canaan and Mitzrayim(egypt) she could have easily went to Egypt to get her son a wife, there were noother people in the vicinity and it was near her birth home.

now Moses was in Paran- as i said above, it wasnt that far apart, how ? Because Moses could see the BURNING CLOUD on the mountain of Sinai- However, If Paran was Mecca, He couldnt see it with his bare eyes- and so it is the same with the assembly (congregation, church) of Yisrael:

Num 10:12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

remember they followed the cloud by day and fire by night and also remember that in deut 1.1 Hazeroth is near Paran.

Num 12:16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.

Num 13:3 And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men [were] heads of the children of Israel.
here, Moses sends the leaders of Yisrael to Canaan to spy out the land.


Num 13:26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.

so the leaders came back to Paran from Canaan to give word about what they saw.

Read the Context of this ENTIRE CHAPTER in BIBLE:

1Ki 11:18 And they arose out of Midian, and came to Paran: and they took men with them out of Paran, and they came to Egypt, unto Pharaoh king of Egypt; which gave him an house, and appointed him victuals, and gave him land.
It says that from Midian, which is IMMEDIATELY below ancient EDOM(55 miles apart).
Midian is also about 2400 miles away from Mecca- mecca laying south of Midian.
As you will see that from Midian, EDOMIS(edomites) went to Paran ( you might say Mecca) and took men from Paran to see Pharoah in Egypt.

However, If Paran was Mecca, it would hardly make sence that the edomite men would have left edom to escape the king and go to mecca, then have to turn back around and wind up in edom/midian again to go see pharoah in egypt- however, it does make better sence that to escape the king they left edom/midian, crossing the arabah dessert passing through Paran, picked up a few men, and continuing until they reach egypt- there is no way they can get caught.


So Mecca is Not Paran! and the truth remains that Messiah is the one that beats all. And the Torah is forever not replaced by any "new" law, but the same is forever For Gd nor does His RULES/Character/Will/Direction/Way=Torah Change- He Is the same and EVERY WORD from His mouth will last forever!
This "christians" do not understand, nor do moslems,and "jews" do not understand what is written either, for if they believed in Moses they would believe in Messiah. and if "christians" believed in Messiah, they would believe in Moses.

 

[Zico]

Shalom Alechem sojeru,

Which translation of your holly book should i trust to clearify a matter like this.

im sorry we can't agree, but let me say this:

Jews erred when they disobeyed the Messiah
Christians erred when they disobeyed Mohammad
And Moslems really erred when they left their book and their legacy behind thier backs and became the worst of nations.


Note: 2:146. Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise him (Muhammad) as they recognise their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

And Moslems really erred when they left their book and their legacy behind thier backs and became the worst of nations.

Hi Zico,

Can you elaborate what you meant by that?

Thanks

In Him

 

[sojeru]

well, to clearly use the BIBLE WELL!
You must use the hebrew and or the greek BIBLE, or at least settle for a "WORD-for-WORD" bible, like KJV(which is from the greek), or Gideon.

other bibles are "meaning to meaning" bibles, which makes its much harder to grasp what IT MEANS IN TRUTH because you'll be reading what someone THINKS the meaning is.

And it isnt just by reading a word for word bible that you'll get the truth, because if it was so, then those who call themselves "jews" when they are not, would have believed in Moses.

Moses says that the person who does not obey Him, is to be cut off from the church(assembly,congregation) of Israel

There is ONLY one congregation, and NO pseudo's can be apart of it.
Hashem is Married to Yisrael, and Yisrael can includes greeks, arabs, assyrians/chaldees, britts, khazzars, germans, spaniards, indians, and etc.
THESE ARE ONE PEOPLE if they Follow Gds eternal TORAH and believe in IT/Messiah GD.
There is NO OTHER DIRECTION. This was the way Of TORAH from the beginning, even before Sinai.

so if ANY person speaks against TORAH saying that "this rule is no more", then he is not to be believed. Messiah said The torah is forever, and Islam does away with many of its commands, Kosher rules for example.
and the rules of sacrifices is another example.

you already know about the sacrificial rules, so i will not stay in that, but kosher rules
you may say
"we are halal, all the foods that we are to eat are halal, so how are we not kosher, we do nt touch the swine!"

But you do eat crustatians, you eat things which are not allowed for any human to eat- this means you are no better than the "christians" that "do away" with Torah because you and your whole belief does it too.

another thing is - you do not respect the sabbath, the seveth day ordained for all men to rest as all creation rested in the beginning.
you may say, "meither do christians - because they do away with sabbath and keep their sabbath on the day of the sun!"
the people that do this are Pseudo christains, NOT TRUE christians, if they were true they woul see it CLEARLY in BIBLE that sabbath was never on the first day (the day of the sun=sunday) however, it was a process that reached its ultimate power in the 4th century CE with Constantine.
He proclaimed "the day of the inneverable sun"
and it begun in the 2nd century when the church of rome wanted to distinguish themselves from the Jews , this included the assembly(church) in Jerusalem and every other church that did sabbath- because all christians before this time and even during ad a bit after were recognised and persecuted as being jews.

There was no difference between those that believed in Messiah and jews.

those that believed in Messiah were true Jews while the others were fallen jews. the word 'christian' was a derrogatory name to these TRUE jews to those living in Antioch.

so this is the chronology of events:
1)Moses came and showed the Torah of Hashem
True Israelis/Jews followed it and were justified by faith
2)Messiah came and showed the jews the Grace of Hashem not doing away with any part of hashems Torah
ALL KNEW it was the truth but either didnt want to understand him or give up their haughtiness, or they believed.
3) From what Moses said, those that disbelieved or not Israelis/Jews
Those that do believe ARE israelis/Jews
4) The true Israelis and Jews are those that believe in Messiah- this includes the gentile

gentiles were permited to be Israelis if they took on the communities rules which was GD's never changing rules, THE TORAH!

Mohammad does away with Torah, But Messiah DOES NOT, and "christians" do away with Torah, But Messiah IS THE TORAH and so, he does not do away with it.

If you can show me how Mohammad UPHOLDS EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT in Torah, and how Mohammad died by being killed/Martyred (not dying of old age or disease) , maybe then i will beliee that he was an apostle.
But this cannot be proven, so he is false

masalaama