What Covenant did Israel break with the Golden Calf

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree.

But what is the foundation of such a philosophy? Where does this come from? I believe it is part of the very first recorded deception in Scriptures in which the serpent convinced Eve that "Faith" in God can exist apart from "Obedience" to God. Or worse yet, that obedience to God, is a sign of Lack of Faith which is implied by "Many" religions who come in Christ's Name. Once established in the heart, men reject God's Judgments, God's "Instruction in Righteousness", God's "Armor" that HE created for us to "Put on", etc., and replace them by whatever religions of this world we are born into establish. And this of course, this varies from one religious sect and religious business to another.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Soon the religious sect, and the doctrines and images of God created therein, become the Idol. Paul speaks to this.

Who changed the truth of God, (for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) into a lie, (Thou shall surely not die) and worshipped and served the creature (What the Woman saw) more than the Creator, (What God told her) who is blessed for ever. Amen.

So then "Faith", which is supposed to be belief in things God tells us that we cannot see, (What is Holy, What is clean, What is Righteous, What is good) becomes belief in things we can see. (Our definition of all these things) "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food".

As a result men create their own high days, their own sabbaths, their own judgments of good and evil, their own images of God in the likeness of four-footed beasts or a long-haired handsome man etc. The Exodus in an example of all these things, that God had written for men, so that they would repent, and not live by the same Lusts of the world they were born into.

You and I are born into this same world, just as Jesus and Paul were.

As you can easily see, the Jesus of the Bible, the author and finisher of Living Faith, didn't allow Himself to be influenced by the religious philosophies and Traditions of the world HE was born into.

He followed the Advice HE gave himself, so to speak, in the Law and Prophets.

"That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days"

And;

Duet. 11: 16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:

21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

This is how Jesus Overcame the influence of this world God placed Him in, and God has provided this Same Armor for anyone, who wants to put it on.

Eve had this Armor available to her as well and God gave her an escape from temptation as HE does for all people. She had a husband (Like Christ) and she had God that she could have gone to Just as we do. But she chose to listen to herself instead.

Separating Christ from God, is like separating Faith from Obedience.

Great post, hope yu don't mind my long post.

Amen! Agree, separating Christ from God is like separating Faith from Obedience. Jesus is not in conflict with His own laws- He kept them, He taught on them, condemned those who keep their rules over His commandments.

I also agree with you that sin and God's righteousness, which is reflected in His law Psa 119:172 Romans 7:12 NIV, never changes. This is an important fact people overlook and in doing so, they are missing out on pivotal teachings of scripture. What changed as you pointed out a few times is the Levitical Priesthood Heb 7 which Jesus is now our High Priest Heb 4:14 and how forgiveness of sin is administered. Instead of sacrificing animals for our sins, Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb Heb 10:1-22, instead of the blood of animals, which made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19 and could not take away sin Hebrews 10:4-6 animal sacrifices was more of a place holder pointing forward to the Sacrifice of Christ whose blood can not only take away sins when we confess, repent and turn from, His blood can cleanse of us all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. Sin is still the same in the NC as it was in the OC- the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7. The law just shows our need for Jesus and through Him, we can overcome John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate what He writes in our hearts and minds -His law Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 and not rebel against it. Romans 8:7-8. When we take away God's law, we bury our sins, which is something we are warned about. Pro 28:13

God bless!

 

[GDL]

Your interpretation:

1. God made His Covenant with Abraham. I should have been more precise to reflect your change of my original question to accurately reflect what you seem to consider to be important, which was:

• God made a Covenant with Abraham brought Abraham into HIS Covenant.

You referenced Gen17:1-2:

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make "my covenant" between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

1. I agree it's important to note the command of YHWH to Abram to "walk before Me and be blameless" (I'm changing "perfect" to "blameless" to be consistent between the Hebrew and LXX). I've seen discussions of this covenant with Abraham gloss over this command.
2. I also think it's important to note that YHWH's promise here is to abundantly multiply Abraham.
3. You are highlighting the importance of the phrase "my covenant" for some reason. You have changed my original inquiry to reflect this. You have also changed "...make my covenant between me and you..." into "...make "my covenant" between me and you..." and have changed my inquiry to say "God brought Abraham into HIS Covenant".
4. I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but "my covenant" is very standard language to reflect when God makes covenants. It's used in regard to God's covenants with:
   1. Noah (Gen6:18)
   2. Noah & descendants & family & every creature & the earth & every living thing of flesh (Gen9:9-15)
   3. Abram re: many descendants (Gen17:2, 4)
   4. Abram & descendants re: the land of Canaan Gen17:7-8
   5. Abraham & descendants and all males in his house re: circumcision Gen17:10-14
   6. Isaac Gen17:21
   7. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex6:4)
   8. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with reference to the children of Israel in Egypt (Ex6:5)
   9. The house of Jacob / the children of Israel via Moses (Ex19:5) - This is probably an important one in your view.
   10. The children of Israel (Lev26:15, 44; Deut31:20; Joshua7:11; Judges2:20; et.al.)
   11. Solomon (1Kings11:11)
   12. David (Ps89:28, 34)
   13. The Redeemer and some of Jacob (Is59:21)
   14. Day & night (Jer33:21, 25)
   15. Levi (Mal2:4-5)
   16. Israel / Jacob (Rom11:27)
   17. The New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Heb8:8-9)
5. Since you used "HIS Covenant", I also looked at this terminology, Thus HIS Covenant, (just a couple):
   1. With Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex2:24)
   2. He commanded the children of Israel to perform = the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deut4:13).
6. So:
   1. "God made a covenant with Abraham" would seem to have been sufficient terminology.
      
      1. God made many covenants He calls "my covenant".
         1. At least 3 of God's covenants would seem to be important to discussing your interpretations:
            1. God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give Abraham many descendants and a land.
            2. God made a covenant with the children of Jacob / Israel which is the ten commandments God wrote on stone tablets.
            3. God made a covenant with Levi.

 

[GDL]

Amen! To pit the law of Christ against God's commandments is just not biblical.

Agree.

 

[Studyman]

Your interpretation:

1. God made His Covenant with Abraham. I should have been more precise to reflect your change of my original question to accurately reflect what you seem to consider to be important, which was:

• -*
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• God made a Covenant with Abraham brought Abraham into HIS Covenant.

You referenced Gen17:1-2:

I don't believe that God let all these years go by without a plan being shown to men. And according to Scriptures, HIS Covenant was shown to men early on.

Gen. 4: 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Certainly Abraham had sin, and was offered the opportunity to leave his life, and join himself to God. "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". After being led away from his former life, God told Abraham the same thing HE told Cain.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (Do Well) 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. (thou shall be accepted)

Israel was in the same place, and God also gave them the same opportunity to join themselves to God, in the Exodus. After God had led them away from their former life, God told Israel the same thing God told Abraham.

Ex. 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, (Do well) then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. (You shall be accepted by me)

This theme continued throughout the Bible, repeated over and over again.

By Jesus.

"If thou will enter Life (Be accepted by God) keep God's Commandments", (do well)

By Paul.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Accepted by God) "For there is no respect of persons with God."

By Peter.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them (Accepted them) that obey him. (Do well)

I could go on and on because the scriptures that make this point start from the very beginning, and continue to the very end. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Therefore, it is my understanding that God brought Abraham and Israel into HIS Covenant.

1. I agree it's important to note the command of YHWH to Abram to "walk before Me and be blameless" (I'm changing "perfect" to "blameless" to be consistent between the Hebrew and LXX). I've seen discussions of this covenant with Abraham gloss over this command.

It was the same Command also given by the Jesus of the Bible several times.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"Now go and Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon thee"

"but if thou wilt enter into life, (be accepted) keep the commandments. (Do well)

1. I also think it's important to note that YHWH's promise here is to abundantly multiply Abraham.

Yes, to make more Abraham's like Jesus said. "If you were Abraham's Children, you would do the works of Abraham".

1. You are highlighting the importance of the phrase "my covenant" for some reason. You have changed my original inquiry to reflect this. You have also changed "...make my covenant between me and you..." into "...make "my covenant" between me and you..." and have changed my inquiry to say "God brought Abraham into HIS Covenant".

I posted what God said.

1. I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but "my covenant" is very standard language to reflect when God makes covenants. It's used in regard to God's covenants with:
   1. Noah (Gen6:18)
   2. Noah & descendants & family & every creature & the earth & every living thing of flesh (Gen9:9-15)
   3. Abram re: many descendants (Gen17:2, 4)
   4. Abram & descendants re: the land of Canaan Gen17:7-8
   5. Abraham & descendants and all males in his house re: circumcision Gen17:10-14
   6. Isaac Gen17:21
   7. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex6:4)
   8. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with reference to the children of Israel in Egypt (Ex6:5)
   9. The house of Jacob / the children of Israel via Moses (Ex19:5) - This is probably an important one in your view.
   10. The children of Israel (Lev26:15, 44; Deut31:20; Joshua7:11; Judges2:20; et.al.)
   11. Solomon (1Kings11:11)
   12. David (Ps89:28, 34)
   13. The Redeemer and some of Jacob (Is59:21)
   14. Day & night (Jer33:21, 25)
   15. Levi (Mal2:4-5)
   16. Israel / Jacob (Rom11:27)
   17. The New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Heb8:8-9)

God is not a God of confusion. At least not the God of the Bible.

• Since you used "HIS Covenant", I also looked at this terminology, Thus HIS Covenant, (just a couple):
  1. With Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex2:24)
  2. He commanded the children of Israel to perform = the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deut4:13).
• So:
  1. "God made a covenant with Abraham" would seem to have been sufficient terminology.

Sufficient to preserve and help promote popular religious philosophy. But it isn't what God said according to Scriptures.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So shall I hire you or the religious school you went to, to define for me which of these 17 covenants you claim are all different, that God is talking about here in Is. 56? Or should I follow Paul's instruction and trust the holy scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"?

1. 
   
   1. God made many covenants He calls "my covenant".
      1. At least 3 of God's covenants would seem to be important to discussing your interpretations:
         1. God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give Abraham many descendants and a land.
         2. God made a covenant with the children of Jacob / Israel which is the ten commandments God wrote on stone tablets.
         3. God made a covenant with Levi.

So which "Covenant" instructed Abraham to take a goat to a Levite Priest, and killing it before his unintentional sin could be forgiven? Or is this the law that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham?

And since Abraham was told to walk blameless before God, like we were, are you really preaching to others that God's Righteousness Paul said was revealed to all mankind, wasn't revealed to Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

 

[GDL]

I don't believe that God let all these years go by without a plan being shown to men. And according to Scriptures, HIS Covenant was shown to men early on.

Therefore, it is my understanding that God brought Abraham and Israel into HIS Covenant.

OK. So please clarify:

1. Is there a covenant that God calls "My covenant" or that's called "His covenant" that pre-existed Abram that God brought Abram into?
   1. The translation you posted says quite clearly that, KJV Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
      1. Are you saying that "I will make my covenant between Me and you" means:
         1. I will [now] make my covenant that has existed since _____ between Me and you?
         2. I will make My covenant [specifically] with you Abraham and your descendants to do what I am promising you and your descendants {specifically]. IOW is this a new and unique covenant only between God and Abraham and his descendants?

So, you know, it is not a novel thought that there is a major covenant that precedes Abraham.

God is not a God of confusion. At least not the God of the Bible.

Agreed. Did all those other instances of "My covenant" confuse something? It's just basic terminology in Scripture.

Also, if you looked at the references, did you notice any mention of a "My covenant" prior to Noah? Do you know of one?

 

[Studyman]

OK. So please clarify:

1. Is there a covenant that God calls "My covenant" or that's called "His covenant" that pre-existed Abram that God brought Abram into?

I will answer your question, after you answer mine.

Gen. 20: 4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

Where did God teach Abimelech that adultery was unrighteous and worthy of death? Show me the Scriptures.

Where did God define for Noah the difference between Clean and Unclean animals? Show me the scriptures.

And yet both existed, and men knew of them. This is an undeniable Biblical Fact.

In your religion, is Every Word God spoke to men in Genisis recorded?

And please, just one more.

In the Holy Scriptures that Paul said God Inspired, did God define for men His Righteousness, His Judgments, His Laws, His Statutes and His Commandments?

The translation you posted says quite clearly that, KJV Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

1. Are you saying that "I will make my covenant between Me and you" means:
   1. I will [now] make my covenant that has existed since _____ between Me and you?

Answer me a question first, and I will answer yours. In the Words of God to Cain;

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Who is to do the "Accepting"?

1. 1. I will make My covenant [specifically] with you Abraham and your descendants to do what I am promising you and your descendants {specifically]. IOW is this a new and unique covenant only between God and Abraham and his descendants?

So, you know, it is not a novel thought that there is a major covenant that precedes Abraham.

Gen. 6: 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Is this not the Ark of the Covenant of God?

Is it so out of your ability to accept, that this covenant is simply "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."?

Agreed. Did all those other instances of "My covenant" confuse something? It's just basic terminology in Scripture.

I can see how religious men struggle with the difference between what is actually written, and what the religions of this world teach. If you could just put this world's religious teaching aside for a moment, and have an actual honest, unbiased discussion about Scriptures. Would this not Edify?

Please answer this question?

Would Paul not also have experienced the same struggle as a Pharisee, and Nicodemus as well? Please reciprocate and answer questions posed to you. Would the Pharisees Religion not be a form of Egypt that required repentance and delivery from?

Also, if you looked at the references, did you notice any mention of a "My covenant" prior to Noah? Do you know of one?

Was there a reference to God's definition of Clean and unclean animals prior to Noah? And even in Noah's Time, did God see fit to define the difference at that time?

And yet, God's definition of Clean and unclean animals surely existed, and men also understood what they were. How can you deny that? And do you and I not also know what animals God defines as clean and Unclean?

So then it is true that God's Righteousness and definition of SIN existed and was shown to men, since the very beginning?

How do I know this? Because the Bible, not this world's religions, teach me.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So within the Gospel of Christ in found the Scripture, "the Just shall live by faith". Hab. 2:4

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Also found "within" the "Gospel of Christ".

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Can you or will you answer these questions? Did Sodom and Abraham not therefore, know the Righteousness and the Wrath of God, because God showed it to them, even though HE didn't see fit to include you in on the conversation? Who didn't know about God and the Flood?

Come on GDL. Instead of you just promoting whichever of the many differing religious philosophies of this world you have adopted, which change according to the name above the door of the manmade shrine of worship, lets simply have a discussion about what is actually written.

 

[GDL]

I will answer your question, after you answer mine.

Gen. 20: 4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

Where did God teach Abimelech that adultery was unrighteous and worthy of death? Show me the Scriptures.

Where did God define for Noah the difference between Clean and Unclean animals? Show me the scriptures.

And yet both existed, and men knew of them. This is an undeniable Biblical Fact.

Working from last to first:

• Agreed but will clarify that it's clear that some men knew of such things.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always liked Gen6:9 re: Noah.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always enjoyed information about ancient pagan law codes, and how ancient biblical information has been found in very old and isolated cultures all around the globe.
  • Paul addresses some of general revelation God has made known to man, and man's inherent knowledge of the righteous judgment of God in Rom1-2.
  • I also noted many years ago how God dealt with Cain & Abel re: sacrifices and how God spoke to Cain about sin.
  • I also noted many years ago all of the instances in Genesis where men obviously know things about some of God's standards and how God judges pagan peoples.

In your religion, is Every Word God spoke to men in Genisis recorded?

And please, just one more.

In the Holy Scriptures that Paul said God Inspired, did God define for men His Righteousness, His Judgments, His Laws, His Statutes and His Commandments?

In Biblical Christianity we're well aware that we're not told everything in Scripture that we may like to know, but many of us think we've been told what God wants us to know. Some of us know that going too far with what are known as "arguments from silence" can get us into trouble in the Text.

Other than what I said above, I noted many years ago what Gen26:5 says about Abraham. I'll have more to say about that assuming we proceed.

So, my question was about God's Covenant with Abraham. Here it is again, and for now I'll maintain your division of my last post:

OK. So please clarify:

1. Is there a covenant that God calls "My covenant" or that's called "His covenant" that pre-existed Abram that God brought Abram into?

I also said this:

So, you know, it is not a novel thought that there is a major covenant that precedes Abraham.

 

[Studyman]

Working from last to first:

• Agreed but will clarify that it's clear that some men knew of such things.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always liked Gen6:9 re: Noah.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always enjoyed information about ancient pagan law codes, and how ancient biblical information has been found in very old and isolated cultures all around the globe.
  • Paul addresses some of general revelation God has made known to man, and man's inherent knowledge of the righteous judgment of God in Rom1-2.
  • I also noted many years ago how God dealt with Cain & Abel re: sacrifices and how God spoke to Cain about sin.
  • I also noted many years ago all of the instances in Genesis where men obviously know things about some of God's standards and how God judges pagan peoples.

Yes, "We are told" "that which may be known of God", like HIS Righteousness, was shown to them. And God did judge and punish those who sinned. And Sin is defined from the beginning to the end of Scriptutres as "Transgressing God's Commandments".

Therefore, Cain knew better than to lie to God, hate his brother, and kill his brother. Because "we are told" that God showed him the difference between Righteousness and Unrighteousness. (If you do well" etc.) So that Cain has no excuse. So the world that God punished in the flood, Cain, Adam and Eve, Ham, the flooded people of the world, Sodom, Lot's wife, all were shown the Righteousness of God, and they all refused to Glorify God as God, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."


Did God destroy the Righteous, along with the wicked? Did God destroy men who didn't know the Commandments of their Creator?

NO GDL. Because "we are told" that what may be known of God, His definition of Righteousness, was shown to them.

Can a man be Just before God, if he steals, but doesn't kill? Can he lie and not covet, and still be considered "Just". James said NO!

James 2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. "Sinner"

Therefore, if Cain refused to Glorify God as God, or respected some of God's instruction in righteousness, but rejected others, and yet still brought offerings to God, would his offering be accepted by God? NO GDL, because it is better to obey, than to sacrifice.

As to your question, A covenant means a pact or an agreement in my understanding.

Therefore, even though Moses didn't specifically use the word "covenant", the following is certainly a pact God shared with Cain.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

A pact or agreement that is repeated over and over for the rest of the holy scriptures.

I don't have to justify one of this world's religious businesses, or a certain religious sect, or a religious lifestyle. Everyone knows what God has instructed of men, because that which may be known of God, is manifest in us, for God has shown it to us. Therefor there is no excuse for us. As the Jesus "of the Bible" shows us.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, (Don't you know who we are?) have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity.

 

[Studyman]

Working from last to first:

• Agreed but will clarify that it's clear that some men knew of such things.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always liked Gen6:9 re: Noah.
• We're not told. There are none that I'm aware of. As a side note, I've always enjoyed information about ancient pagan law codes, and how ancient biblical information has been found in very old and isolated cultures all around the globe.
  • Paul addresses some of general revelation God has made known to man, and man's inherent knowledge of the righteous judgment of God in Rom1-2.
  • I also noted many years ago how God dealt with Cain & Abel re: sacrifices and how God spoke to Cain about sin.
  • I also noted many years ago all of the instances in Genesis where men obviously know things about some of God's standards and how God judges pagan peoples.

In Biblical Christianity we're well aware that we're not told everything in Scripture that we may like to know,
but many of us think we've been told what God wants us to know. Some of us know that going too far with what are known as "arguments from silence" can get us into trouble in the Text.

What I have provided you from scriptures, is not an "argument from silence". A man simply needs to study the Scriptures as a whole, much in the same way James looked at God's instructions. And to me this is so simple that even a child can understand. If gives me a recipe, and I only include part of the ingredients, or reject the ingredient "written" and use my own, then the result is not the intended product.

What I see with Mainstream Christianity VS Biblical Christianity, is the practice of this world's religions, who "Come in Christ's Name", refusal to accept what "IS Written", in order to justify religious doctrines and Traditions they live by and promote, that are "NOT written".

The mainstream religion in the Jerusalem of Jesus and Paul's Time did the same. The Church of God directed by the Christ and His apostles didn't engage in this practice.

Other than what I said above, I noted many years ago what Gen26:5 says about Abraham. I'll have more to say about that assuming we proceed.

If you seek Biblical Truth, it would be good to continue. But if all you want is to justify various religious traditions, doctrines and philosophies of our fathers, which existed in the world God placed us in, then how is that any different than the Pharisees who did the same?

So, my question was about God's Covenant with Abraham. Here it is again, and for now I'll maintain your division of my last post:
I also said this:

Just because a Truth of God is "Novel" to you, or the religion you have adopted, doesn't mean it's Novel to God, or those who trust His Inspired Word for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Would the God of the Bible destroy a whole world, for breaking a Covenant they had never been offered? Was Sodom destroyed for breaking a covenant they were never offered?

Was Cain not punished because he rejected the covenant God gave him before the entire world? How foolish is it to reject this Pact God offered to Cain, simply because God didn't use the word "Covenant"?

And why would a man even do this, if not to justify a religion which transgresses the known Commandments of God by their own religious traditions?

 

[GDL]

As to your question, A covenant means a pact or an agreement in my understanding.

Therefore, even though Moses didn't specifically use the word "covenant", the following is certainly a pact God shared with Cain.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

A pact or agreement that is repeated over and over for the rest of the holy scriptures.

So, this is the covenant that Abraham was brought into, and this is where you identify it for the first time?

 

[Studyman]

So, this is the covenant that Abraham was brought into, and this is where you identify it for the first time?

Well to be honest, the first time I was prompted to consider Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, was from the Words of the Jesus "Of the Bible".

4 But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

But this world's religions were teaching me that God's Words had become old and obsolete, and that if I wanted to enter life, I should go to their manmade shrines of worship, and follow their manmade doctrines, their manmade high days, and their manmade religious traditions, which varied according to the name above the door of their shrines.

I became confused. God said "do this", and all the examples of faith in Scriptures "Did" as God instructed, and they were "Accepted" by HIM. But the religions of the world I was born into, had created their own religious traditions. Traditions the Jesus "of the Bible", didn't teach, imply or promote. In fact, HE rebuked and rejected those who would practice such "works", saying HE didn't even know these men, though they called Him Lord, Lord.

So I wondered, what is Holy? What is Clean? What is "Good"? "What shall I eat", what religion shall I cloth myself with, what shall I drink?

Then my Lord told me.

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It was here that I turned away from the religion of my fathers, and placed my trust in the God who inspired the Holy Scriptutres. I found HIS Pact that HE offered to Cain, who refused it, and Noah and Abraham who did well, and were accepted. I heard Paul's words.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

I heard the Words of the Jesus "of the bible".

"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." and "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." and;

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my "reward" is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

It's so simple that even a child can understand.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

So after considering "Every Word" of God as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed, "I" identified this Pact, as the agreement God brought ALL of His People into.

 

[GDL]

Well to be honest, the first time I was prompted to consider Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, was from the Words of the Jesus "Of the Bible".

4 But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

But this world's religions were teaching me that God's Words had become old and obsolete, and that if I wanted to enter life, I should go to their manmade shrines of worship, and follow their manmade doctrines, their manmade high days, and their manmade religious traditions, which varied according to the name above the door of their shrines.

I became confused. God said "do this", and all the examples of faith in Scriptures "Did" as God instructed, and they were "Accepted" by HIM. But the religions of the world I was born into, had created their own religious traditions. Traditions the Jesus "of the Bible", didn't teach, imply or promote. In fact, HE rebuked and rejected those who would practice such "works", saying HE didn't even know these men, though they called Him Lord, Lord.

So I wondered, what is Holy? What is Clean? What is "Good"? "What shall I eat", what religion shall I cloth myself with, what shall I drink?

Then my Lord told me.

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It was here that I turned away from the religion of my fathers, and placed my trust in the God who inspired the Holy Scriptutres. I found HIS Pact that HE offered to Cain, who refused it, and Noah and Abraham who did well, and were accepted. I heard Paul's words.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

I heard the Words of the Jesus "of the bible".

"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." and "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." and;

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my "reward" is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

It's so simple that even a child can understand.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

So after considering "Every Word" of God as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed, "I" identified this Pact, as the agreement God brought ALL of His People into.

So, I'll take that as a, yes.

If it's a pact, which you're saying is an agreement, which you're saying is a covenant:

• Why didn't God just call it a covenant as He does in so many other places and times?
• What exactly is the covenant - if you do well, you'll be accepted?
  • Wouldn't this just work for all men - IOW why does God need to bring men into this covenant as you say He did with Abraham when He could just bless men who do righteousness?

I don't know if you're getting this or not, but I have zero problems with the reality of the necessity to obey God. In fact, I think it's central to every major piece of terminology in the Bible from beginning to end.

As a side note, and just a question with no intention of taking it any further, are you an advocate of the King James version only?

 

[Studyman]

So, I'll take that as a, yes.

If it's a pact, which you're saying is an agreement, which you're saying is a covenant:

• Why didn't God just call it a covenant as He does in so many other places and times?

Well, it is a pact. An agreement, which is a Covenant by very definition. This much is undeniable. And it is certainly God's Words and not mans, if one believes the Holy Scriptures are inspired by HIM.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And God did inspire it to be written. You are free to question God. But shouldn't you have the answers before preaching to others?

"Why didn't God follow your language preferences?

"Why did God wait until Moses to reveal to "you" what His instruction in righteousness is?"

"Why doesn't God follow your religious philosophy?" etc.

The answer to your questions, in my view, should start with accepting that the God of Abraham "I am the Almighty God".

• What exactly is the covenant - if you do well, you'll be accepted?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Read just a few of the inspired Words of God below, and if you can accept what HE says, you should have your question answered.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (Do well) 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. (Accept thee)

Ex. 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, (Do well) then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: (I will accept thee) for all the earth is mine:

Duet 4: 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, "even in the latter days", if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (Do well) 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. (Thou shall be accepted.

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, (Do well) ye shall eat the good of the land: (Be accepted) 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! (Done well) then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: (They would be accepted)

O that Cain, the world in Noah's Time, Sodom, the Israelites that fell, the Pharisees, Annanias and Saphira, Judas, had "hearkened to my commandments". (Done Well)

Jesus, His Apostles and the entire Gospel of Christ, promote this simple pact, this simple agreement God has offered to the people of this world since the fall of Adam. So simple that even a child can understand.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

• • Wouldn't this just work for all men - IOW why does God need to bring men into this covenant as you say He did with Abraham when He could just bless men who do righteousness?

First off, this does "work" for all men as Paul tells us.

Rom. 2: 10 But glory, honour, and peace, (Acceptance from God) to every man that worketh good, (Doeth well) to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Secondly, your definition of "blessed" is not God's Definition of "blessed" as the Scriptures clearly teach.

Let me ask you a question. When God told Abraham to sacrifice his son to HIM, did Abraham question God? Or Glorify God?

Why not just ask; "Why didn't God just create men without a choice"? Why place a fruit tree in a garden full of fruit trees, and then command not to eat of it?

The problem is not God's Way here GDL. The problem is man's lack of respect for God. This has been the case from the very beginning. This is simply an undeniable truth.

I don't know if you're getting this or not, but I have zero problems with the reality of the necessity to obey God. In fact, I think it's central to every major piece of terminology in the Bible from beginning to end.

And what religion on this entire planet, that comes in God's/Christ's Name, doesn't say the exact same thing? And the Pharisees, did they not also "SAY" the exact same thing? And even satan, would satan not also say the exact same thing, given he comes disguised as an Apostle of Christ?

So "Everyone Hears God" GDL. Cain "heard God", Sodom "heard God" the Pharisees "heard God, Pilot heard God, Pharoah heard God, but what do the Scriptures actually say?

Matt. 7: 24 (CLV) Everyone, then, who is hearing these sayings of Mine and "is doing them" ("doing" well) shall be likened to a prudent man who builds his house on the rock." 25 And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, (Accepted) for it had been founded on the rock."

This would be Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Rehab, Anna, Cornelious, Peter, Timothy and all the examples of faith in the Holy Scriptures, Yes?

26 And everyone who is hearing these sayings of Mine and "not doing" them shall be likened to a stupid man who builds his house on sand." 27 And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great.

This would be the examples like Adam, Cain, the world of Noah's Time, Sodom, Egyptians, Israelites that fell in the Wilderness, Pharisees etc.


So I don't know if you are getting what I am trying to show you here. EVERYONE in Noah's Time "heard" about God. "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house" but whose house withstood the storm? Was it not a man who was a "doer" of the Lord's Saying, and not a hearer only? This is also an undeniable Truth. Why not accept it?

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted)

And in Abraham's Time, Sodom and Gammora and the Kings of the earth all knew about God, and Egypt knew about God in Moses Time.

These are simple to understand, undeniable Biblical Facts. Shall I not accept them?

As a side note, and just a question with no intention of taking it any further, are you an advocate of the King James version only?

No.

But I am not a fan of modern progressive translations, although God's Simple Truth is preserved even in them, in my view.

 

[returntosender]

Idolatry

 

[Studyman]

Idolatry

Idolatry is an agreement?

 

[Gary K]

So, I'll take that as a, yes.

If it's a pact, which you're saying is an agreement, which you're saying is a covenant:

• Why didn't God just call it a covenant as He does in so many other places and times?
• What exactly is the covenant - if you do well, you'll be accepted?
  • Wouldn't this just work for all men - IOW why does God need to bring men into this covenant as you say He did with Abraham when He could just bless men who do righteousness?

I don't know if you're getting this or not, but I have zero problems with the reality of the necessity to obey God. In fact, I think it's central to every major piece of terminology in the Bible from beginning to end.

As a side note, and just a question with no intention of taking it any further, are you an advocate of the King James version only?

Is the following a covenant?

Genesis 3: 14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[returntosender]

Idolatry

Sorry, i was thinking commandments not covenants.

 

[GDL]

Well, it is a pact. An agreement, which is a Covenant by very definition. This much is undeniable. And it is certainly God's Words and not mans, if one believes the Holy Scriptures are inspired by HIM.

Apologies. My focus and efforts have had to shift for now. Thanks for answering questions. I think I can now see your flow of thought from early Genesis on.

FWIW, I don't see Gen4:7 as covenant language but it does tell us some important things about God's early relationship with man that has remained consistent. See Heb11:4, then the early names over the next few verses.

 

[GDL]

Is the following a covenant?

No.

 

[Gary K]

No.

Isn't a covenant something two people both agree to do? The devil agrees he will not stop causing men to sin and God agrees to stop him. That's been going on for the entire history of earth. That seems very consistent to me.