LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

ViaCrucis

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You said: "there is only one who has ever been resurrected from the dead, and His name is Jesus." That is not true. Jesus was the first to be resurrected on the earth but not the only one:
(New Testament | Matthew 27:52 - 53)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
You have forgotten those that were resurrected at the time that Jesus was resurrected.
Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We know based on elsewhere in Scripture that this is not resurrection--i.e. the full and total renewal, glorification, and transformation of the body from mortal to immortal, et al--as we read in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ is the firstfruits of those being raised. And so the resurrection of the dead is in this order: Christ the firstfruits, and then those who are Christ's at His Parousia.

There are plenty of examples in Scripture of people coming back from the dead, for example Lazarus, or the little girl whom Christ spoke "talitha koum" to.

There is a difference between coming back from the dead back into mortal existence, and the resurrection of the body.

However, she existed before the world was made.

Only God is before all ages.

I do appeal to the absolute power of God. You argue his absolute power every day. And your pink unicorn example is absurd.

Yes, it is absurd, that's the point. What God can do, and what God has done are very different. Simply because God can do something doesn't mean He has.

Believe me, if Christ is in you, you are partaking of the divine nature, which means you are divine as long as Christ is in you. If Christ is divine, and he is in you, you are partaking of the divine nature.

Yes, but the nature is not mine, but the One whose nature it is.

Did Moses or Abraham or any of the prophets that saw God ever mention wings? No, so you have to know there is a difference in reality and metaphoric poetry.

Of course there is a difference. That's why God has no arms or legs or face, these are not literal reality. That's kind of my point.

That is the reason you cannot come to grips with who God is or what he looks like, because you can only picture him with wings and a womb?

I don't picture Him with wings and a womb. I try not to picture Him at all, as it is written, "You shall not make for yourselves any graven images" and also, "To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One." The Eternal One is without form, and cannot be likened to anything, either in heaven above or the earth below.

God has given us only one Icon of Himself, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God-Man.

You need to read your bible again and underline all the metaphoric language there is. It is full of metaphoric poetry that is beautiful, but is not real. As you read your bible seriously, you will get to know the difference.

You'll pardon me as I find it a little ironic to, at this point, be lectured on reading my Bible more. I don't know how to say that without it coming across prideful, but I really don't know how else to put it.

Then all the scriptures that talk about prophets seeing God is all a big lie? They really didn't see him, but they write about it nonetheless? Is that how it works?

Two words that are really important: Vision and Theophany.

Visions are dreams or dream-like experiences in which revelation occurs through graphic imagery. For example, when Ezekiel beholds "wheels within wheels" or when St. John of Patmos sees a seven-eyed lamb seated upon a throne, or a harlot riding a multi-headed beast.

Theophanies are divine apparitions, apperances. For example the burning bush, or the pillars of smoke and fire which guided the Israelites out of Egypt, or the Malakh YHVH (the Angel of the LORD). The dove which St. John the Baptist saw, that was a Theophany of the Holy Spirit, the voice from heaven which John heard, that is a Theophany. The angelic or angel-like visitors who came to Abraham, a Theophany.

Well, here's the real thing, Jesus Christ 'was' human.

Is human.

He is now an immortal, exalted, resurrected being.

Immortal, exalted, resurrected human being.

But he still has a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

Yes, His human body which He received in the Incarnation from His mother Mary. Because Jesus Christ is fully human, of a rational soul and body.

That happens to be the final progression for all men that follow Jesus,

The resurrection and transfiguration of the body is the blessed hope of the Church, yes. As we look forward to the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting in the Age to Come. At the restoration of all things.

and since Jesus is an express image of his God and his Father, then we can know that Jesus's God and Father is also an immortal, exalted, resurrected being, with a body of flesh and bone and spirit.

He is the visible image of the invisible God.

The bible tells us this is the case and so does logic.

The Bible says no such thing, and logic has nothing to do with it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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mmksparbud

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Do you not think that God can make a perfect, immortal, holy, resurrected being divine? Remember God can create things out of nothing, if you say no He can't, then how powerful is God?

A lot more powerful than your god. Our does create from nothing--your can't. Yours can't even produce offspring that are of the same substance as he is. He is supposed to flesh and bones but can only produce offspring that are "spirit." And then they have to come to this earth to be human before they can then go back to where they had been. God made a perfect, immortal being divine---His own one and only Son. He chooses to not make any more.
Not to mention the fact that your god makes a woman, tells her to be fruitful and multiply, but doesn't let her until she can sin against him! Wow! Going against God's direct command makes you able to have children---what was in that fruit,---Viagra? HHHmmmm----does that mean if I go ahead and steal, I'll be able to have triplets under my pillow in the morning?


I have not failed in any way. All I did was prove that other Christians believe that there is a Mother in Heaven. That is all I did.

You attacked your Christian sister right away and called her a non-Christian according to this forum. I have just not been able to defend her very well, that is the problem.

But I have done what I meant to do with much success, measuring from your response.

No---what you did was find a woman who thnks there is a heavenly mother. You have not poroved she is a Christian any more than those Church of God from Korea who also call themselves Christian and believe in a heavenly nmother. As has been pointed out---anyone can call themselves Christian. Anyone can say they are a propohet from God. That's why the bible says to try them--they must agree with the word of God and anyone who believes in a heavenly mother does not agree with the word of God. If JS had bothered to rest Moroni---he would have known he was not of God. As it is, he is quilty of leading many to believe in a false god the father, son and holy spirit, and added a goddess to the mix.
 
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He is the way

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We know based on elsewhere in Scripture that this is not resurrection--i.e. the full and total renewal, glorification, and transformation of the body from mortal to immortal, et al--as we read in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ is the firstfruits of those being raised. And so the resurrection of the dead is in this order: Christ the firstfruits, and then those who are Christ's at His Parousia.


Yes, His human body which He received in the Incarnation from His mother Mary. Because Jesus Christ is fully human, of a rational soul and body.



The resurrection and transfiguration of the body is the blessed hope of the Church, yes. As we look forward to the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting in the Age to Come. At the restoration of all things.



He is the visible image of the invisible God.



The Bible says no such thing, and logic has nothing to do with it.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes there were people who were brought back to life but not resurrected before Christ's resurrection. The scripture I quoted was AFTER Christ's resurrection. I know of no scriptures that state that these were not resurrected beings.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes there were people who were brought back to life but not resurrected before Christ's resurrection. The scripture I quoted was AFTER Christ's resurrection. I know of no scriptures that state that these were not resurrected beings.


HUH????? They were brought back to life---but not resurrected???
 
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He is the way

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HUH????? They were brought back to life---but not resurrected???
I am surprised you did not know that. Jesus was the first to be resurrected:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:20 - 23)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 
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mmksparbud

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I am surprised you did not know that. Jesus was the first to be resurrected:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:20 - 23)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


I mean---how can you be raised from the dead but not resurrected?
Moses was resurrected---there were many that were raised from the dead.

1: ἀπαρχή
(Strong's #536 — Noun Feminine — aparche — ap-ar-khay' )
denotes, primarily, "an offering of firstfruits" (akin to aparchomai, "to make a beginning;" in sacrifices, "to offer firstfruits"). "Though the English word is plural in each of its occurrences save Romans 11:16 , the Greek word is always singular. Two Hebrew words are thus translated, one meaning the "chief" or "principal part," e.g., Numbers 18:12 ; Proverbs 3:9 ; the other, "the earliest ripe of the crop or of the tree," e.g., Exodus 23:16 ; Nehemiah 10:35 ; they are found together, e.g., in Exodus 23:19 , "the first of the firstfruits."

"The term is applied in things spiritual, (a) to the presence of the Holy Spirit with the believer as the firstfruits of the full harvest of the Cross, Romans 8:23 ; (b) to Christ Himself in resurrection in relation to all believers who have fallen asleep, 1 Corinthians 15:20,23 ; (c) to the earliest believers in a country in relation to those of their countrymen subsequently converted, Romans 16:5 ; 1 Corinthians 16:15 ; (d) to the believers of this age in relation to the whole of the redeemed, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (see Note below); James 1:18 . Cp. Revelation 14:4 ." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 271.]


Notes: (1) In James 1:15 the qualifying phrase, "a kind of," may suggest a certain falling short, on the part of those mentioned, of what they might be. (2) In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 , instead of ap' arches, "from the beginning," there is an alternative reading, well supported, viz., aparchen, "(God chose you) as firstfruits."
 
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He is the way

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I mean---how can you be raised from the dead but not resurrected?
Moses was resurrected---there were many that were raised from the dead.

1: ἀπαρχή
(Strong's #536 — Noun Feminine — aparche — ap-ar-khay' )
denotes, primarily, "an offering of firstfruits" (akin to aparchomai, "to make a beginning;" in sacrifices, "to offer firstfruits"). "Though the English word is plural in each of its occurrences save Romans 11:16 , the Greek word is always singular. Two Hebrew words are thus translated, one meaning the "chief" or "principal part," e.g., Numbers 18:12 ; Proverbs 3:9 ; the other, "the earliest ripe of the crop or of the tree," e.g., Exodus 23:16 ; Nehemiah 10:35 ; they are found together, e.g., in Exodus 23:19 , "the first of the firstfruits."

"The term is applied in things spiritual, (a) to the presence of the Holy Spirit with the believer as the firstfruits of the full harvest of the Cross, Romans 8:23 ; (b) to Christ Himself in resurrection in relation to all believers who have fallen asleep, 1 Corinthians 15:20,23 ; (c) to the earliest believers in a country in relation to those of their countrymen subsequently converted, Romans 16:5 ; 1 Corinthians 16:15 ; (d) to the believers of this age in relation to the whole of the redeemed, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (see Note below); James 1:18 . Cp. Revelation 14:4 ." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 271.]


Notes: (1) In James 1:15 the qualifying phrase, "a kind of," may suggest a certain falling short, on the part of those mentioned, of what they might be. (2) In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 , instead of ap' arches, "from the beginning," there is an alternative reading, well supported, viz., aparchen, "(God chose you) as firstfruits."
There have been many people that have died and come back only to die again. They did not receive a spiritual resurrected body that can not die when they were were brought back from the dead. Jesus Christ was the first to receive such a body. Here are people who died but were not resurrected:

IANDS - the most reliable source of information on NDEs
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes there were people who were brought back to life but not resurrected before Christ's resurrection. The scripture I quoted was AFTER Christ's resurrection. I know of no scriptures that state that these were not resurrected beings.

Matthew 27:52-53, which mentions this, is not after Christ's resurrection, this event takes place the hour when Christ died. According to the letter of the text, they left their tombs after Jesus had arisen, but they themselves had been roused back to life the hour of Christ's death. And further, we have examples of people being raised from the dead without it being The Resurrection of the Dead after Jesus' resurrection.

"Now there was in Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which, translated, means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity. In those days she became ill and died, and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, hearing that Peter was there, sent two men to him, urging him, “Please come to us without delay.” So Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood beside him weeping and showing tunics and other garments that Dorcas made while she was with them. But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and raised her up. Then, calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive. And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord. And he stayed in Joppa for many days with one Simon, a tanner." - Acts 9:36-43

We have the clear statement by St. Paul, that as it pertains to the Resurrection of the Dead, there is this order: Christ the firstfruits, and then those who are Christ's at His coming.

Cases like Lazarus, Tabitha, or the unnamed Jerusalem saints don't fall into either of those categories. As for the unnamed Jerusalem saints, the story is further difficult because we literally don't know anything more than what Matthew says. The whole thing is such a strange side note that only Matthew decides to mention, and which gets only a little mention--from what I can see--in Christian tradition, and that tradition which does exist offers no more than mere conjecture and speculation.

For some the meaning here is not so much literal as perhaps illuminating; that is the whole point is to signify the greatness of Christ's death and resurrection, rather than simply accounting literalistic events. This is how Origen of Alexandria treats the matter (Catena Aurea, Matthew Chapter 27, Lectio 10).

Sts. John Chrysostom and Jerome see in here a Lazarus-like event, though with Jerome speculating further that perhaps these saints were simply translated directly into heaven and that "the Holy City" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem rather than the city of Jerusalem itself. (ibid.)

Remigius thinks it too cruel for these people to have been brought back to life only to then return back to the dust of the earth again, and so suggests that--in spite of the opinion of many others that they, like Lazarus, fell back asleep--were present at Christ's Ascension and that the Lord took them up with Him. (ibid.)

I maintain that such speculations get us no where, and that we are wise to remain faithful to the clear and unambiguous teaching of Scripture, and not entertain ourselves with endless speculations concerning the ambiguous ones. Clearly Matthew brings up this event as part of a showcase of the importance of what has just happened: the hour of Christ's death there is, as it were, a deep cry from both heaven and earth, the sun is darkened, the earth itself quakes, the graves are opened, the veil in the Temple is torn. The old things and the new things divided in two, history, the universe, everything is now split between before this moment and after this moment. That is what Matthew is getting at. And any speculation, even by the most esteemed churchmen of history, as to what happened to these unnamed, mysterious now-alive-again saints serves us precisely no benefit.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Peter1000

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With heretical views like hers, I cannot call her a Christian sister. Your trying to force the issue to fit your argument, even though your "evidence" has been discredited. Your "proof" failed along with your argument and now you are just being desperate. Even without this lady, the lds claim of a heavenly mother is discredited by Scripture and the early church fathers, as Via Crucis has already posted.
That was never the issue. The only issue that I have proved is that there are other Christians that believe that there is a Heavenly Mother. That is all.
 
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Peter1000

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Childish desperation. LOL. She's your source. I don't have to prove her credibility, you do.
I have. It is you that has challenged her Christianity. I don't even care what you think of her Christianity. All I know is that I found another Christian that is non-LDS that believes there is a Mother in Heaven.
 
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Peter1000

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She's a suitor, eh? Is Warren Jeffs a bonafide Latter Day Saint?
No, but that would be like Margaret, a Methodist preacher is not a bonfide Lutheran. Of course she is not a bonafide Lutheran, but she is a bonfide Christian preacher.

Why do you need to destroy her because she believes that there is a Heavenly Mother?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Umm---how does a handshake relate to a kiss? No one was instructed to kiss someone in order to find out if they are an angel sent of God or not.

The proper way for Christians which would still be the culture of angels is a holy kiss, not handshake.

Angels do not marry Matthew 22:30, Luke 20:34-36

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

The fact that of unaware means there is not a test.

 
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Daniel Marsh

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I am surprised you did not know that. Jesus was the first to be resurrected:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:20 - 23)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It simply means Jesus was the most important or highest ranked to be raised from the dead.
Remember Jesus rose people from the dead in his ministry?
 
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mmksparbud

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The proper way for Christians which would still be the culture of angels is a holy kiss, not handshake.

Angels do not marry Matthew 22:30, Luke 20:34-36

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

The fact that of unaware means there is not a test.

I disagree to some extent As the bible says to test the spirits

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world..
Rev_16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Just cause some apparition says they are of God does not mean they are. Just because someone says they are a prophet doesn't mean they are.

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If they contradict the bible---they are not of God---Obviously JS did not test the angel Moroni to see if his words contradict the scriptures---which they do. He never even mentioned the name of Jesus to this angel. He never asked for any kind of proof that the angel was from God. The writings of JS are not in harmony with the scriptures. When the angel told JS that all denominations were wrong and the bible had been corrupted---He should have run. That is the very first thing that any false religion, and cults, will do, is to take away the scriptures and replace them with their own writings. A true angel or prophet joins with the scriptures.
What a prophet says must come true or they are not of God--unless they are conditional. And even if the prophecy comes true---if they ask you to do something that is against God's word--you still can not trust them.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


JS says God was once a man and became God---the bible says otherwise. He always was God---that is enough to classify him as a false prophet. He supposedly got this from the angel--that was no angel of God to have said that. Nowhere in the bible is there a heavenly mother---again--that comes not from an angels. Moroni was not an angel from God and nothing that JS wrote is of Him either.
 
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He is the way

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Matthew 27:52-53, which mentions this, is not after Christ's resurrection, this event takes place the hour when Christ died. According to the letter of the text, they left their tombs after Jesus had arisen, but they themselves had been roused back to life the hour of Christ's death. And further, we have examples of people being raised from the dead without it being The Resurrection of the Dead after Jesus' resurrection.

"Now there was in Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which, translated, means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity. In those days she became ill and died, and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, hearing that Peter was there, sent two men to him, urging him, “Please come to us without delay.” So Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood beside him weeping and showing tunics and other garments that Dorcas made while she was with them. But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and raised her up. Then, calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive. And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord. And he stayed in Joppa for many days with one Simon, a tanner." - Acts 9:36-43

We have the clear statement by St. Paul, that as it pertains to the Resurrection of the Dead, there is this order: Christ the firstfruits, and then those who are Christ's at His coming.

Cases like Lazarus, Tabitha, or the unnamed Jerusalem saints don't fall into either of those categories. As for the unnamed Jerusalem saints, the story is further difficult because we literally don't know anything more than what Matthew says. The whole thing is such a strange side note that only Matthew decides to mention, and which gets only a little mention--from what I can see--in Christian tradition, and that tradition which does exist offers no more than mere conjecture and speculation.

For some the meaning here is not so much literal as perhaps illuminating; that is the whole point is to signify the greatness of Christ's death and resurrection, rather than simply accounting literalistic events. This is how Origen of Alexandria treats the matter (Catena Aurea, Matthew Chapter 27, Lectio 10).

Sts. John Chrysostom and Jerome see in here a Lazarus-like event, though with Jerome speculating further that perhaps these saints were simply translated directly into heaven and that "the Holy City" refers to the heavenly Jerusalem rather than the city of Jerusalem itself. (ibid.)

Remigius thinks it too cruel for these people to have been brought back to life only to then return back to the dust of the earth again, and so suggests that--in spite of the opinion of many others that they, like Lazarus, fell back asleep--were present at Christ's Ascension and that the Lord took them up with Him. (ibid.)

I maintain that such speculations get us no where, and that we are wise to remain faithful to the clear and unambiguous teaching of Scripture, and not entertain ourselves with endless speculations concerning the ambiguous ones. Clearly Matthew brings up this event as part of a showcase of the importance of what has just happened: the hour of Christ's death there is, as it were, a deep cry from both heaven and earth, the sun is darkened, the earth itself quakes, the graves are opened, the veil in the Temple is torn. The old things and the new things divided in two, history, the universe, everything is now split between before this moment and after this moment. That is what Matthew is getting at. And any speculation, even by the most esteemed churchmen of history, as to what happened to these unnamed, mysterious now-alive-again saints serves us precisely no benefit.

-CryptoLutheran
Okay, I do agree that such speculations get us no where. I also know that there are many people who have died and been brought back only to die later. I have met a few of them.
 
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He is the way

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It simply means Jesus was the most important or highest ranked to be raised from the dead.
Remember Jesus rose people from the dead in his ministry?
That was not the same as being resurrected. Those who are resurrected have spiritual resurrected bodies:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 50)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
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Peter1000

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A lot more powerful than your god. Our does create from nothing--your can't. Yours can't even produce offspring that are of the same substance as he is. He is supposed to flesh and bones but can only produce offspring that are "spirit." And then they have to come to this earth to be human before they can then go back to where they had been. God made a perfect, immortal being divine---His own one and only Son. He chooses to not make any more.
Not to mention the fact that your god makes a woman, tells her to be fruitful and multiply, but doesn't let her until she can sin against him! Wow! Going against God's direct command makes you able to have children---what was in that fruit,---Viagra? HHHmmmm----does that mean if I go ahead and steal, I'll be able to have triplets under my pillow in the morning?




No---what you did was find a woman who thnks there is a heavenly mother. You have not poroved she is a Christian any more than those Church of God from Korea who also call themselves Christian and believe in a heavenly nmother. As has been pointed out---anyone can call themselves Christian. Anyone can say they are a propohet from God. That's why the bible says to try them--they must agree with the word of God and anyone who believes in a heavenly mother does not agree with the word of God. If JS had bothered to rest Moroni---he would have known he was not of God. As it is, he is quilty of leading many to believe in a false god the father, son and holy spirit, and added a goddess to the mix.
What I did was find another Christian that believed in a Heavenly Mother. Are you willing to now say that if you believe in a Heavenly Mother you cannot be a Christian? Even though this woman is a Methodist preacher, you disqualify her from being a Christian because she doesn't believe all the things that you believe? Pretty arrogant, I would say?
 
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