LDS Handshake Test (D&C 129)

ViaCrucis

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Yes, by your standards. Are you going to tell me that a Methodist who believes that by grace are you saved, and the Trinity, are not considered Christians on this forum?

A belief in a divine heavenly consort is at odds with the doctrine of the Trinity.

"Now the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons, nor dividing the Essence." - Quicumque Vult, aka the Athanasian Creed

Trinitarianism, by definition and necessity, asserts the Divine Unity: there is one God of one Being, Essence, and Substance. Never divided, alone uncreated, without beginning, always existing, and without equal.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Peter1000

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That she is not associated with any specific Methodist church, nor ever has been as far as I can find, is telling. She can think, teach, write, etc. whatever she wants, with no critical review of her works by the body of Christ. Some gem.

By the way, since you want to tout her recognition by the Archbishop of Canterbury, do you even know what it was for? Margaret received the doctorate "in recognition of her work on the Jerusalem Temple and the origins of Christian liturgy which has made a significant new contribution to our understanding of the New Testament and opened up important fields for research."

Nothing about a heavenly mother here, so that doesn't really support your point anyway. Her beliefs in that regard are heretical. Oh, and here's a Wikipedia list of her sources. Anyone who uses Gnostic texts as a basis for their theology is certainly suspect in their beliefs.

Margaret Barker works from all the available sources (the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, the Dead Sea scrolls, the New Testament, the Jewish and Christian Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, Gnostic texts, and other early writings and artwork).
You are going after this Christian woman just like you go after JS. Wow, she must be intimidating to you.
Apparently any Christian that believes a little different from you is going to be blasted as a heretic. Just look in your own congregation and you will see different beliefs all over the place. Of course you know that.

But for our purposes, I only bring her up to help you understand that there are Christians that believe there is a Heavenly Mother. Nothing more than just that.
 
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Peter1000

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A belief in a divine heavenly consort is at odds with the doctrine of the Trinity.

"Now the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons, nor dividing the Essence." - Quicumque Vult, aka the Athanasian Creed

Trinitarianism, by definition and necessity, asserts the Divine Unity: there is one God of one Being, Essence, and Substance. Never divided, alone uncreated, without beginning, always existing, and without equal.

-CryptoLutheran
Just thinking outloud about the Trinity and a Heavenly Mother.

Could a Heavenly Mother not be part of the Trinity, but have a holy roll of some sort in heaven?

Obviously, some Christians think that is possible. What do you think?
 
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Peter1000

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That she is not associated with any specific Methodist church, nor ever has been as far as I can find, is telling. She can think, teach, write, etc. whatever she wants, with no critical review of her works by the body of Christ. Some gem.

By the way, since you want to tout her recognition by the Archbishop of Canterbury, do you even know what it was for? Margaret received the doctorate "in recognition of her work on the Jerusalem Temple and the origins of Christian liturgy which has made a significant new contribution to our understanding of the New Testament and opened up important fields for research."

Nothing about a heavenly mother here, so that doesn't really support your point anyway. Her beliefs in that regard are heretical. Oh, and here's a Wikipedia list of her sources. Anyone who uses Gnostic texts as a basis for their theology is certainly suspect in their beliefs.

Margaret Barker works from all the available sources (the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, the Dead Sea scrolls, the New Testament, the Jewish and Christian Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, Gnostic texts, and other early writings and artwork).
You said "as far as I can find". Which obviously is not very far, so your mature conclusions mean nothing as to her association with a specific Methodist church.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Just thinking outloud about the Trinity and a Heavenly Mother.

Could a Heavenly Mother not be part of the Trinity, but have a holy roll of some sort in heaven?

Obviously, some Christians think that is possible. What do you think?

What would this "heavenly mother" be? What class of being would it be?

Orthodox Christianity recognizes two fundamental classes of existance:

The Uncreated and the Created.

God alone is the Uncreated. And therefore all qualities, attributes, and concepts of divinity belong uniquely to the one God.

Since there is only one God, and God is one, divinity is the property of not a class of beings, but the property of the one-and-only Divine Being: God.

"Shema Yisrael YHVH Eloheinu YHVH echad" (Deuteronomy 6:4)
"Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one"

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside Me;" - Deuteronomy 32:39

"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me," - Isaiah 46:9

"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides Me there is no god; I equip you though you do not know Me," - Isaiah 45:5

All other things are creatures, made by the one and only God YHVH, the "I AM that I AM" who condescended to speak to Moses through a burning bush.

Thus there is the Uncreated, God and God alone. Who is one, His Being undivided, inseparate, the one and only. Without beginning, without end. One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. For the Godhead of the Father, the Godhead of the Son, and the Godhead of the Spirit is one. The one uncreated Essence, the one Uncreated Being. That Is before all things, and is after all things, First and Last, Alpha and Omega.

All else, again, is mere creature. Whether things visible, such as the observable universe and all which it contains--all matter of all kinds and all things subsisting of matter. Or things invisible, for example the angels, about which Scripture calls "ministering spirits".

As such a "heavenly mother" could only be of the latter class of existence: a mere creature. It could not be divine, for only God is Divine. It must therefore be a creature, a mere creature, brought into existence from non-existence by the power and word of God as part of the creation.

Further what would "mother" even mean here? We know why the Father is called "Father", not because He has sired, not because He has produced offspring through seminal vesicle, but because this One is the One whom Jesus Christ refers to as His Source and Origin. For He is not the Father of creatures, but the Father of the Son, for God has begotten God. The Uncreated has begotten the Uncreated. The Eternal Generation of the Son from the Father is not a birth as we understand it, but a divine mystery of the eternal relationship of the Son to the Father, of the Logos to His Eternal Source.

The Father is not male, for there is no meaning of sex, chromosomes to That Which is Eternal, Uncreated. He is called Father not because the One whom Christ refers to as His Origin has gonads, or organs of any kind, for God, being the Uncreated and Eternal is without form, without body, without appearance, but Ineffable in His Eternal Uncreated Being. We speak using anthropological and anthropomorphic terminology because of the poverty of the finite in speaking of the infinite.

And we call this One, the One of whom Christ calls "Father" our own Father because Christ has given His own the grace of adoption, for having been joined to Christ by grace we share in Christ's Person and if we share in Him and are in Him, then what He has is ours as gift. And that is why St. Paul says that God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts by which we can cry out "Abba! Father". Christ has given us the privilege to call His Father (and He alone has that right, as He alone is the only-begotten, the one and only Son of the Father, which He has known from all eternity), which is why when we speak the name "Father" we speak the name which is unique to Christ's own special and eternal relationship with His Father. Christ has made us children of His Father, by grace, and so we can say, with Him, "Our Father in heaven"

So what then would "mother" mean? For as creatures we are the product of the Uncreated God, who in the beginning established all things, setting in course this cosmos, this universe of matter, of which we are part of, of which we arose into existence through the consummation of our parents to produce us.

Who is this "mother" the mother of? In the Eternal Inter-Divine Life of God there is no place for "mother" because such is nonsensical. There is only the Three Divine Persons, of one Essence, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So within this Inter-Divine Life there can be "mother".

Now Christ will gain a mother, when in the fullness of time the Eternal Son, the Divine Logos, the only-begotten of the Father will condescend to join to Himself human nature, becoming human, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And so this mortal, lowly, human woman will be granted the unimaginably beautiful privilege to become the very mother of Christ-God. For which reason all generations will call her blessed. So Christ has gained a mother, in time, a human mother by His becoming human through her, by the power of the Holy Spirit. And she will be named, for this reason, Theotokos (Bearer-of-God) and the mother of God; for God the Son has become man through her; the flesh and blood baby which she conceives and gives birth to and cradles in her arms is the Eternal and Uncreated God.

So, in the Incarnation, there is a mother; the human woman named Mary.

But we have already addressed that in the Inter-Divine Life of the Trinity there is no place for a "mother". Since there is only God who is Divine, there can be no divine mother. There is no place for a creature-mother with God, since God is not male and no siring has ever taken place, either in the Inter-Divine Life of the Trinity or in the Economy of God's engagement with creation.

So we can have no "divine" "mother". And so all is left is a creature-mother, but there is no room for such a creature within the Divine Life or in the Divine engagement with creation.

As such the only thing we have come reasonably close to a mother, as it pertains to the things of God, is the Virgin Mary, a mere human woman who, by God's plan, became the mother of Christ in time.

Now, she is the mother of Christ, and since as the mother of Christ she is therefore the mother of God, though she is not mother to the Father or the Spirit, only of the Son who became flesh.

And she is in heaven, along with the rest of God's saints. Not as a specially exalted being of any kind, but as a holy and blessed saint of God, along with Abraham, Moses, St. John the Baptist, or St. Paul.

One could, I suppose also think of her as a mother to the Church, since we have been adopted as children of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ; thus in perhaps some sense because of our union to Christ by the grace of God we can think of Christ's mother as our own mother. So perhaps Mary can be thought of as a mother to the Church, even though she is not above the Church but part of the Church.

So we have, perhaps then, an adopted heavenly mother in the figure of St. Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus.

And this is as close to a "heavenly mother" that we could ever hope to have here. And while I am perfectly fine with this sense of St. Mary Theotokos being seen as a kind of adoptive mother of the Faithful in her Son; there is still a part of me that wouldn't be all that comfortable calling her a "heavenly mother".

Let's be clear, however, that at this point other things are also to be held as true: St. Joseph would likewise become a kind of adoptive parent to us, just as St. James Adelphotheos and Jesus' other siblings would become a kind of adopted siblings of ours. So this analogy and language can be carried on into all the various earthly relationships of the Lord Jesus.

So, at this point. Maybe a "heavenly mother" in the person of Jesus' mom, the Virgin Mary. And also a "heavenly stepdad" in St. Joseph. Our "heavenly stepbrothers" with James and Jude et al. Which would also mean our "heavenly grandma and grandpa" St Anna and St. Joachim, the parents of Mary.

At that point it just seems a bit much though.

So I think maybe it will be simplest to just go ahead and say, no, no there is no room for a "heavenly mother" in orthodox Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BigDaddy4

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You are going after this Christian woman just like you go after JS. Wow, she must be intimidating to you.
Apparently any Christian that believes a little different from you is going to be blasted as a heretic. Just look in your own congregation and you will see different beliefs all over the place. Of course you know that.
She's as intimidating as the fluffy little bunnies that eat my flowers at night. :argh: Belief in a heavenly mother is more than just "a little different". ViaCrucis has an excellent post explaining why.
But for our purposes, I only bring her up to help you understand that there are Christians that believe there is a Heavenly Mother. Nothing more than just that.
I understand that anyone can call themselves a Christian and said Christian can believe anything they want. Heck, there were a couple of guys who started a false religion and thought there were men on the moon. But as Jesus said, not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of God. There is nothing to support that the will of God was to have a spouse called Heavenly Mother. The Bible also warns of false teachers who teach false doctrine.
You said "as far as I can find". Which obviously is not very far, so your mature conclusions mean nothing as to her association with a specific Methodist church.
Anything I found is farther than what you've provided in your desperate attempt to justify your belief in a heavenly mother by someone who calls herself a Christian. We are to proclaim the Truth, and the Truth is, neither the lds teaching nor the belief of this woman of the existence of a heavenly mother are based on Biblical Truth.
 
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Peter1000

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What would this "heavenly mother" be? What class of being would it be?

She would be a perfect, immortal, holy, resurrected being.

Do you not think that God can make a perfect, immortal, holy, resurrected being divine? Remember God can create things out of nothing, if you say no He can't, then how powerful is God?

Actually the bible says we can be partakers of the divine nature of God (2 Peter 1:4), so it does not seem to be an impossible task for God. Right?

The Father is not male, for there is no meaning of sex, chromosomes to That Which is Eternal, Uncreated. He is called Father not because the One whom Christ refers to as His Origin has gonads, or organs of any kind, for God, being the Uncreated and Eternal is without form, without body, without appearance, but Ineffable in His Eternal Uncreated Being.

You say God does not have organs of any kind?
Well, the bible tells us He has hind parts, hands, and face.
The bible tells us that we are made in His image and likeness, so He must have organs, because we have organs.
The bible tells us that Jesus is made in the express image of his Father, since Jesus has organs, I would suspect the Father has organs too.
In Revelations, John saw God handing a book to his Son Jesus Christ. They looked just like each other.
In Acts, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father. So it is not like he has never appeared to men. He surely has. Somebody has got this wrong. Read the bible a little slower, and don't throw out 1/2 of it because of an theological agenda that does't fit the text. Thank you.

Christ has made us children of His Father, by grace, and so we can say, with Him, "Our Father in heaven"

This is a good thing, by grace, we are now children of God, not a big step to be partakers of the divine nature of our Father. He has the power to do it. Right?

But we have already addressed that in the Inter-Divine Life of the Trinity there is no place for a "mother". Since there is only God who is Divine, there can be no divine mother.

I thought that we had come to a conclusion that God was all powerful and that we can be partakers of the divine nature of God if follows His words in the bible and grants us divinity, which we know he has the power to do. Right?

Let's be clear, however, that at this point other things are also to be held as true: St. Joseph would likewise become a kind of adoptive parent to us, just as St. James Adelphotheos and Jesus' other siblings would become a kind of adopted siblings of ours. So this analogy and language can be carried on into all the various earthly relationships of the Lord Jesus.

I wondered if Mary would be part of this conversation, but Joseph and James and other siblings of Jesus is interesting but I wouldn't count on them being some kind of an adopted family or something, that is out there at least as far as a 'Heavenly Mother", don't you think?
 
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Peter1000

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She's as intimidating as the fluffy little bunnies that eat my flowers at night. :argh: Belief in a heavenly mother is more than just "a little different". ViaCrucis has an excellent post explaining why.

I understand that anyone can call themselves a Christian and said Christian can believe anything they want. Heck, there were a couple of guys who started a false religion and thought there were men on the moon. But as Jesus said, not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of God. There is nothing to support that the will of God was to have a spouse called Heavenly Mother. The Bible also warns of false teachers who teach false doctrine.

Anything I found is farther than what you've provided in your desperate attempt to justify your belief in a heavenly mother by someone who calls herself a Christian. We are to proclaim the Truth, and the Truth is, neither the lds teaching nor the belief of this woman of the existence of a heavenly mother are based on Biblical Truth.
Did you read what she said? She bases it all on the bible. So why don't you take another Christians research and read what she says? All I was saying is there are others that believe there is a Heavenly Mother, not just JS. And I am right.
 
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Peter1000

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She doesn't have a congregation. That was the point.
We don't know that, did you read that she did not have a congregation? No, you read that she is a Methodist preacher, but it did not give her home church. That is what we know, nothing else.

She may not have a home church, but we simply do not know.
 
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ViaCrucis

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She would be a perfect, immortal, holy, resurrected being.

In which case "she" wouldn't exist. As of yet, in the entire history of the universe, there is only one who has ever been resurrected from the dead, and His name is Jesus.

Do you not think that God can make a perfect, immortal, holy, resurrected being divine? Remember God can create things out of nothing, if you say no He can't, then how powerful is God?

Appeal to the absolute power of God is a poor argument. I believe God can make a thousand foot tall invisible pink unicorn that follows me around everywhere I go. Does that mean there IS a thousand foot tall invisible pink unicorn that follows me around everywhere I go?

Actually the bible says we can be partakers of the divine nature of God (2 Peter 1:4), so it does not seem to be an impossible task for God. Right?

It does not say we "can" be partakers, it says we are partakers. How are we partakers of the divine nature? By being divine? No. Because we are not divine. But we are in Christ, who is God. This mystical union with Christ is at the center of things; for having been baptized we have "put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27), have been "buried with Him" (Colossians 2:12); we have been crucified with Christ, we have died with Christ, been raised up together with Christ, we are "seated in Christ in heavenly places". In Him we have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, by whom we have become children of God, heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ, able to therefore say, "Abba! Father!". It is this mystical union with Christ, which is by grace, through faith, by working of God, that we are partakers of the divine nature. This is Theosis, that "He who began a good work will continue that good work", and that we are being, and will be, conformed to the image of Christ. It is not "exaltation" from your theology, it is not apotheosis, a becoming divine, becoming gods. It is a participation in the life of the Divine Trinity, by the grace of God, by our union with Christ, being found in Christ, by the unity and grace and power of the Holy Spirit.

You say God does not have organs of any kind?
Well, the bible tells us He has hind parts, hands, and face.
The bible tells us that we are made in His image and likeness, so He must have organs, because we have organs.
The bible tells us that Jesus is made in the express image of his Father, since Jesus has organs, I would suspect the Father has organs too.
In Revelations, John saw God handing a book to his Son Jesus Christ. They looked just like each other.
In Acts, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father. So it is not like he has never appeared to men. He surely has. Somebody has got this wrong. Read the bible a little slower, and don't throw out 1/2 of it because of an theological agenda that does't fit the text. Thank you.

In that case, God also has a womb and has wings. That's the problem with taking anthropomorphic language literally, it results in nonsense.

So, no, God does not have hands, feet, wings, or body parts. God is God.

Jesus Christ DOES have a body, because, and here's the thing, Jesus Christ is human.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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In which case "she" wouldn't exist. As of yet, in the entire history of the universe, there is only one who has ever been resurrected from the dead, and His name is Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
You said: "there is only one who has ever been resurrected from the dead, and His name is Jesus." That is not true. Jesus was the first to be resurrected on the earth but not the only one:
(New Testament | Matthew 27:52 - 53)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 
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Peter1000

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In which case "she" wouldn't exist. As of yet, in the entire history of the universe, there is only one who has ever been resurrected from the dead, and His name is Jesus.

You have forgotten those that were resurrected at the time that Jesus was resurrected.
Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

However, she existed before the world was made.

Appeal to the absolute power of God is a poor argument. I believe God can make a thousand foot tall invisible pink unicorn that follows me around everywhere I go. Does that mean there IS a thousand foot tall invisible pink unicorn that follows me around everywhere I go?

I do appeal to the absolute power of God. You argue his absolute power every day. And your pink unicorn example is absurd.

It does not say we "can" be partakers, it says we are partakers. How are we partakers of the divine nature? By being divine? No. Because we are not divine. But we are in Christ, who is God.

Believe me, if Christ is in you, you are partaking of the divine nature, which means you are divine as long as Christ is in you. If Christ is divine, and he is in you, you are partaking of the divine nature.

In that case, God also has a womb and has wings. That's the problem with taking anthropomorphic language literally, it results in nonsense.

Did Moses or Abraham or any of the prophets that saw God ever mention wings? No, so you have to know there is a difference in reality and metaphoric poetry. That is the reason you cannot come to grips with who God is or what he looks like, because you can only picture him with wings and a womb?
You need to read your bible again and underline all the metaphoric language there is. It is full of metaphoric poetry that is beautiful, but is not real. As you read your bible seriously, you will get to know the difference.

So, no, God does not have hands, feet, wings, or body parts. God is God.

Then all the scriptures that talk about prophets seeing God is all a big lie? They really didn't see him, but they write about it nonetheless? Is that how it works?

Jesus Christ DOES have a body, because, and here's the thing, Jesus Christ is human.

Well, here's the real thing, Jesus Christ 'was' human. He is now an immortal, exalted, resurrected being. But he still has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. That happens to be the final progression for all men that follow Jesus, and since Jesus is an express image of his God and his Father, then we can know that Jesus's God and Father is also an immortal, exalted, resurrected being, with a body of flesh and bone and spirit. The bible tells us this is the case and so does logic.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Did you read what she said? She bases it all on the bible. So why don't you take another Christians research and read what she says? All I was saying is there are others that believe there is a Heavenly Mother, not just JS. And I am right.
No, she doesn't base it all on the the Bible.
The Mother in Heaven and Her Children - FairMormon

Satan knows the Bible and can quote it. Anyone can make up their own theology from Bible verses. JS did it. Still doesn't make what is said or taught correct.

When you offer up so-called Christian sources, be prepared for those sources to be scrutinized. Here, you have a failure.
 
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BigDaddy4

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We don't know that, did you read that she did not have a congregation? No, you read that she is a Methodist preacher, but it did not give her home church. That is what we know, nothing else.

She may not have a home church, but we simply do not know.
Don't you think she would mention it on her home page?
Margaret Barker
Or it would be on Wikipedia?
Margaret Barker - Wikipedia

She does seem to be cozy with the lds, though. And that makes her theology even more questionable.
 
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Peter1000

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No, she doesn't base it all on the the Bible.
The Mother in Heaven and Her Children - FairMormon

Satan knows the Bible and can quote it. Anyone can make up their own theology from Bible verses. JS did it. Still doesn't make what is said or taught correct.

When you offer up so-called Christian sources, be prepared for those sources to be scrutinized. Here, you have a failure.
I have not failed in any way. All I did was prove that other Christians believe that there is a Mother in Heaven. That is all I did.

You attacked your Christian sister right away and called her a non-Christian according to this forum. I have just not been able to defend her very well, that is the problem.

But I have done what I meant to do with much success, measuring from your response.
 
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Peter1000

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Don't you think she would mention it on her home page?
Margaret Barker
Or it would be on Wikipedia?
Margaret Barker - Wikipedia

She does seem to be cozy with the lds, though. And that makes her theology even more questionable.
You will just have to fly to England and search her out and scold her for not helping you know what church she preaches at. Just remember that she believes there is a Heavenly Mother and she is a bonafide Christian woman.
 
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BigDaddy4

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I have not failed in any way. All I did was prove that other Christians believe that there is a Mother in Heaven. That is all I did.

You attacked your Christian sister right away and called her a non-Christian according to this forum. I have just not been able to defend her very well, that is the problem.

But I have done what I meant to do with much success, measuring from your response.
With heretical views like hers, I cannot call her a Christian sister. Your trying to force the issue to fit your argument, even though your "evidence" has been discredited. Your "proof" failed along with your argument and now you are just being desperate. Even without this lady, the lds claim of a heavenly mother is discredited by Scripture and the early church fathers, as Via Crucis has already posted.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You will just have to fly to England and search her out and scold her for not helping you know what church she preaches at. Just remember that she believes there is a Heavenly Mother and she is a bonafide Christian woman.
Childish desperation. LOL. She's your source. I don't have to prove her credibility, you do.
 
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