Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Andre_b]

"Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13b)

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

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Again the other translation came much later and are WRONG. God allowed man to be deceived for centuries before fixing it? You realize that the other translations translate from each other often? so if you have an error in one, you'll most likely copy the error to the other.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Tertullian - A Treatise on the Soul - Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss. - Chapter 58 (LVIII)
(155-240 A.D.)

ANF3 Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul


"All Souls, Therefore; Are Shut Up Within Hades: do you admit this? It Is True, Whether You Say Yes Or No: moreover, There Are Already Experienced There Punishments and Consolations; And There You Have A Poor Man And Rich."


.

 

[Major1]

As a follower of the Lamb it is impossible to worship a being who torments anyone!

Perhaps you can point us to the "age of accountability" Scripture and then explain how an individual who is a sinner by nature ("T" in Tulip) gets a free pass?

IF that comment is true...….how do you explain the Flood in Genesis?

This is a very sensitive subject which actually effects everyone one way or another. Having said that, we need to define a few terms and correct a few wrong assumptions. Our definitions must be biblical, and our assumptions must be correct instead of opinions and thoughts.

#1. “How can a loving God send someone to hell?” is the idea that allowing people to go to hell is an unloving act on God’s part. If we humans decide that God is somehow wrong to allow unrepentant sinners to pay their deserved penalty, then we have declared that we are more loving than God is. We have set ourselves up as God’s judge and jury and in doing so have closed the door to deeper understanding. Therefore, the first step in answering this question is to agree with Scripture that God IS love; therefore, everything He does is an expression of that perfect love.

#2. “How can a loving God send someone to hell?” The way this question is worded implies that, if anyone goes to hell, it is the result of God’s unilateral action, and the person being sent to hell is a passive victim. Such an idea completely disregards the personal responsibility God has entrusted to each of us.

God is not only love, but He is perfect justice as well. Justice requires adequate payment for crimes committed. The only just punishment for high treason against our perfect Creator is eternal separation from Him. That separation means the absence of goodness, light, relationship, and joy, which are all facets of God’s nature. To excuse our sin would require God to be less than just, and to allow sin-tainted humans into His perfect heaven would render that place less than perfect. That’s why only the perfect Son of God could go to the cross in our place. Only His perfect blood was an acceptable payment for the debt we each owe God. When we refuse Jesus as our substitute, we must pay the price ourselves.
How can a loving God send someone to hell? | GotQuestions.org

All of that comes under the umbrella of "Freedom of Choice".

 

[Major1]

Imagine being supremely ugly in the face of true beauty. materialist have to resort to very ugly and evil understandings of God. The true torment is corrupting your image of God that God made you to be. the suffering of the soul may very well manifest physical tortures and pains. There are certainly many evil spirits that love to hurt people and wish to torture. But when they are in the presence of angels they are tortured because of the vast difference of their state of being. That is why demons were so tortured by Jesus.

those that believe that God Wills for others to be tortured have a very bad understanding of God and are already accepting doctrines of demons and may even secretly love people being tortured. The torture is that love is dead and that goodness is dying.

Actually.....torment is not what God's will is according to the Scripture.

2 Peter 3:9...…...
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”.

So then torment/separation/hell/lake of fire is a choice by men.

 

[Major1]

It is customary when one quotes a source to identify the source; title, author, page#, chapter# etc.
If one tried that in college or grad school they would get a failing grade and very likely kicked out of the school.
Please show us one of the unchallenged parables, 2 or more would be better, which names specific persons?
Jesus did not identify the story of Lazarus and the rich man Luke as a parable. He did not explain it later to His disciples. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words that Jesus quoted, Jesus was a liar.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered the story factual.

Agreed!

Thank you!

May I add to your comment a couple of things......

#1.
Jesus NEVER said it was a parable!

#2. Jesus ALWAYS announced when He was speaking in parables.

#3. You won't find any mention of a “parable” in Luke 16, or of the word “like.”

#4. It would be very unscholarly not to accept this account as 100% true.
WHY?????

To allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not a true story is to accuse the Lord of lying, because He is using LITERAL names, and thus attributing meaning and character references to those people. Scientifically, historically, astronomically, archeologically, horticulturally, medically, and in so many other ways--the Word of God is 100% accurate and literal.

So to call Jesus a liar is to make Him a SINNER and if that is the case we are all still in our sins and we do not have a Saviour.

I wonder at those who do not think through their opinions on the ramifications of reality.

 

[Major1]

Everyone is given the chance to accept or reject Jesus. That includes unborn babies. Any that dont get the chance in this life are given the opportunity in Hades/I always remember a sermon years ago that taught on this so have taken an interest in the subject since (I dont hold that all sermons are infallible as they are given by people). The book/film "Heaven is for Real" included that the boy met his miscarried sister he didnt know about in heaven. This fits with my belief that unborn babies would be given the opportunity to accept Jesus and go to heaven.

Can you quote the Scriptures that say as you just did that...…...
" Any that dont get the chance in this life are given the opportunity in Hades/".

 

[Major1]

IMHO, I consider it a biblically sound truth.



I don't know where you got that idea & you didn't quote me to support your claim. I surely believe there will be a "literal hell" in the sense that, for example, those in the LOF will be "tormented" (Rev.14:11; 20:10) literally "into the ages of the ages", not the deceptive misleading translation "forever and ever" which is self contradictory nonsense.




I, as do many other Christian universalists [Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelicals, Anglicans, etc), base the view solidly on Scripture.




Hopefully that was sufficiently short.

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Yes it was and I read it all.

I do not agree with you in any way about eternal torment in hell because the Scriptures do not support your opinion.

IF you are saying that you are a Christian Universalist by accepting the idea
that Universalism is the belief that everyone will be saved, then my dear friend you are completely in error.

You are welcome to think anything you want to but Universalism is not Biblical.

the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell.

Matthew 25:46 says......
“Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever.

Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”
Is universalism / universal salvation biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[FineLinen]

Actually.....torment is not what God's will is according to the Scripture.

2 Peter 3:9...…...
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”.

So then torment/separation/hell/lake of fire is a choice by men.

The fact is the Will of all wee wills prevails. (period)

He, the Father of all fathers, is not willing that any perish and that is precisely what shall ultimately be realized either now or in the fulness of times!

There is no such animal as "eternal separation" none!

What does exist is our God who is the Source of ta pavnte being the Goal of ta pavnte.

Source, Guide, Goal of the all

 

[Major1]

You can count on F.L. never taking your word or conjecture.

The range of meaning of the term "parable" =

(Gk. parabole [parabol) in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v'm] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; B. Pes. 49a), allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ), proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ), riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ), and symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

THANK YOU!

You just confirmed what I have been saying.

Jesus NEVER says that Luke 16 is a "PARABEL"!!!!

Then Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.
Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Der Alte]

Agreed!

Thank you!

May I add to your comment a couple of things......

#1.
Jesus NEVER said it was a parable!

#2. Jesus ALWAYS announced when He was speaking in parables.

#3. You won't find any mention of a “parable” in Luke 16, or of the word “like.”

#4. It would be very unscholarly not to accept this account as 100% true.
WHY?????

To allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not a true story is to accuse the Lord of lying, because He is using LITERAL names, and thus attributing meaning and character references to those people. Scientifically, historically, astronomically, archeologically, horticulturally, medically, and in so many other ways--the Word of God is 100% accurate and literal.

So to call Jesus a liar is to make Him a SINNER and if that is the case we are all still in our sins and we do not have a Saviour.

I wonder at those who do not think through their opinions on the ramifications of reality.

Another source to add to this discussion is the fact that every ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[Major1]

The fact is the Will of all wee wills prevails. (period)

He, the Father of all fathers, is not willing that any perish and that is precisely what shall ultimately be realized either now or in the fulness of times!

There is no such animal as "eternal separation" none!

What does exist is our God who is the Source of ta pavnte being the Goal of ta pavnte.

Source, Guide, Goal of the all

I am tempted to say something that I should not say and then get reported.

However I will just say what God says instead of what I say...……...

ETERNAL SEPERATION in the Scriptures......
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ...…….
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, "

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There are TWO "Animals".

 

[FineLinen]

IF that comment is true...….how do you explain the Flood in Genesis?

The great flood resulted as a result of darkness covering the minds & hearts of men of disobedience resulting in they and their innocent children perishing.

Your question = what is the final outcome according to St. Peter?

 

[Major1]

As a follower of the Lamb it is impossible to worship a being who torments anyone!

Perhaps you can point us to the "age of accountability" Scripture and then explain how an individual who is a sinner by nature ("T" in Tulip) gets a free pass?

Explain the Flood my brother. Do you think the people on the other side of the door to the Ark were not in torment as the water rose higher and higher?????

Deuteronomy 1:39
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it."

I do not want to argue with you my friend. It is that I find your basis of understanding to be very flawed.

First you say that "As a follower of the Lamb it is impossible to worship a being who torments anyone!"

Then you say the opposite when you suggest that babies/infants do not go to heaven. Isn't that the same as torment???? Sure it is.

Your opinion tells me two things.

#1. You personally have never lost one of your own infants.

#2. You personally have never looked a parent in the eyes who has lost an infant and told them that there infant did not go to heaven.

Deuteronomy 1:39...…..
“…your little ones…your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go into it, and to them will I give it, and they will possess it.“

And Isaiah 7:16 speaks about children’s age of accountability speaking about young children saying.....
“For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good…”.

Mark 10:14.....
“Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

You are welcome to believe such a tragic idea as you are supporting but I for one believe that infants who die are given a special dispensation of the grace of God; it is not by their innocence but by God’s grace that they are received into heaven.

 

[Major1]

The great flood resulted as a result of darkness covering the minds & hearts of men of disobedience resulting in they and their innocent children perishing.

Your question = what is the final outcome according to St. Peter?

You evaded the question....Was the people standing in rising water of the flood in torment or not????

 

[FineLinen]

I am tempted to say something that I should not say and then get reported.

However I will just say what God says instead of what I say...……...

ETERNAL SEPERATION in the Scriptures......
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ...…….
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, "

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There are TWO "Animals".

You poor lad: shall we have a small review of aionios punishment from Dr. Marvin Vincent again?

And, pretty please enunciate the 5 qualifications for aionios kolasis. They are?

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

Fitted/ Prepared=katartivzw

Katartivzw=

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one’s self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted/prepared= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

“ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian”

 

[Major1]

IMHO, I consider it a biblically sound truth.



I don't know where you got that idea & you didn't quote me to support your claim. I surely believe there will be a "literal hell" in the sense that, for example, those in the LOF will be "tormented" (Rev.14:11; 20:10) literally "into the ages of the ages", not the deceptive misleading translation "forever and ever" which is self contradictory nonsense.




I, as do many other Christian universalists [Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelicals, Anglicans, etc), base the view solidly on Scripture.




Hopefully that was sufficiently short.

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With all due respect my brother......Your opinion does not matter.

MY opinion does not matter one little bit.

The ONLY thing that matters is the Word of God.

John 17:17 …...
" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Psalms 145:18 ….
" The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Proverbs 12:22 …...
" Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight."

 

[FineLinen]

You evaded the question....Was the people standing in rising water of the flood in torment or not????

Good grief Major! Drowning people do not stand, they go glub, glub, glubbbbbb.

 

[Major1]

You poor lad: shall we have a small review of aionios punishment from Dr. Marvin Vincent again?

And, pretty please enunciate the 5 qualifications for aionios kolasis. They are?

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

Fitted/ Prepared=katartivzw

Katartivzw=

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one’s self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted/prepared= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

“ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian”

LOL...…..I am neither poor or a lad.

Just an old country boy from the great promised land of U.A.

No need to post any comments from any man to me my brother.

John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

 

[Major1]

Good grief Major! Drowning people do not stand, they go glub, glub, glubbbbbb.

You are STILL evading the question......WHY IS THAT????

People were standing in water ankle deep. Then it rose to knee deep and then waist deep.

They were holding up their babies asking Noah to save them.

Is that torment or is it not.???

 

[FineLinen]

You are welcome to believe such a tragic idea as you are supporting but I for one believe that infants who die are given a special dispensation of the grace of God; it is not by their innocence but by God’s grace that they are received into heaven.

That is exciting news Major!

It is a shame you are not able to comprehend the God of limited, with UN before it, granting "special dispensation" to the broken & bruised wrecks of the fallen children of Adam1.