Greed

[MachZer0]

Can someone please tell me what has happened to Christianity in the past 25 years? Poor people are now called "greedy and covetous" for not earning what they want, taxes are now considered stealing, and somehow its now easy for the rich to get into heaven. Nations that decide they want to care for their poor and sick are now evil, and apparently the only honorable way for the poor to get help is for them to beg in the streets for charity.

What has happened to you people?

Just to correct your error, the poor people who are being called greedy and covetous are only those who want money they didn't earn by having the government to take the money away from people who did earn it. The proper attitude for the poor should be gratitude, not demand or entitlement

 

[heymikey80]

What has happened to you people?

We've grown wise in the use of earnings, and recognized the difference between gifts through grace and government coercion.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

The Bible has a lot to say about the rights of the poor in regard to the measure of their need; and conversely the judgment that comes upon the wealthy and powerful who withhold theirs from the poor, who oppress the needy, and who hoard their wealth to the detriment of their workers.

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you." - James 5:1-6

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis, you should get a copy of the book, "On Social Justice" by St. Basil the Great published by St. Vladimir's Seminary as part of its Popular Patristics Series. It is a series of sermons that St. Basil gave about the wealthy and how they steal from the poor. I particularly like the sermon "I Will Tear Down My Barns". Unfortunately, I can't find the entire sermon online. Here is an excerpt from it:

St. Basil on stealing from the poor « De unione ecclesiarum

I think it is very relevant to the topic of this thread. By the way, St. Basil the Great was a bishop in the 4th Century, but his words are equally relevant to the present. If God gives us material goods, it is so that we can share it with those who need it, not keep it for ourselves. Since I do have the sermon, I can tell people that the next part of the sermon is about how those who do hold onto their wealth rather than sharing it with those in need will face on Judgment Day, when Christ judges us on the guidelines that He set out in the last passage of Matt. 25. The fact is, the Government wouldn't have to have Government programs to help the disadvantaged if we Christians lived out what Christ taught in the last passage of Matt. 25. Unfortunately, too many of us have missed that message and his telling us to build treasures in heaven rather than in this world, and, of course, we do that by giving away our wealth to help others instead of keeping it for ourselves. If we (and I definitely include myself here) shared what we have with those in need, the Government would not have to take it away by force to make sure that the poor are cared for. The Government should not have to take it, we should be willingly giving it to those in need. I think of one of our modern saints, St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, who used to be criticized for serving the services barefoot much of the time when he was in Shanghai. The reason that he would be barefoot is because he would have given his sandals away on his way to the cathedral to someone who didn't have any shoes.

Thanks for the heads up. I've been needing to get my nose back into the writings of the Fathers.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grizzly]

Just to correct your error, the poor people who are being called greedy and covetous are only those who want money they didn't earn by having the government to take the money away from people who did earn it. The proper attitude for the poor should be gratitude, not demand or entitlement

There are probably poor people out there who feel this sense of entitlement. It sounds like the right thinks its almost all of them while the left feels its very few. But I don't remember Jesus asking for a litmus test for helping the poor.

There are government programs that truly help those in need. People with mental illnesses, those that have been physically abused, and those with severe disabilities. The right's answer to these folks appears to be "earn a living or beg for charity" and that any attempt to work collectively to help these people is "stealing". If you guys get your way, hundreds of thousands of people will experience real suffering. And you are trying to convince people that this is what Jesus wants.

 

[Grizzly]

We've grown wise in the use of earnings, and recognized the difference between gifts through grace and government coercion.

I hope it keeps you warm at night. I hope you get to keep all the money you earn. And I really hope nothing bad or catastrophic happens to you so that at no point will you need government assistance.

 

[Grizzly]

Christianity is in its death throes, is what happened. It's slowly dying out. These are all just side-effects of that death.

I really hope that's not true. From what I can tell in my 10 years at CF is that many of these people need to believe in God to be moral. I would be afraid to think what this population would be like if most of them had to decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong.

 

[heymikey80]

I hope it keeps you warm at night. I hope you get to keep all the money you earn. And I really hope nothing bad or catastrophic happens to you so that at no point will you need government assistance.

As my family has already been in that last situation, sadly, I know not to rely on the government for assistance.

As for the rest, I'm glad you can spread sarcasm wherever you go. And as you know, I don't get to keep all the money I've earned. I'm sure insurance contracts are more reliable than committing my future into the steely arms of a government who cares so little about me as a person to indebt me by another $13 a day -- in addition to taking 40% of my income. Frankly, I could buy a lot of insurance for that amount per day.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can someone please tell me what has happened to Christianity in the past 25 years? Poor people are now called "greedy and covetous" for not earning what they want, taxes are now considered stealing, and somehow its now easy for the rich to get into heaven. Nations that decide they want to care for their poor and sick are now evil, and apparently the only honorable way for the poor to get help is for them to beg in the streets for charity.

What has happened to you people?

Christian Reconstructionism/Dominionism made more mainstream through preaching of significant leaders who emerged from the Religious Right which became conflated with Evangelicalism and--subsequently--also made some inroads into some Mainline Protestant churches. Even where Rushdooneyism didn't leave a stronger mark, those influenced by Rushdooney and Schaeffer and those further influenced by those influenced by (at the very least, Schaeffer) created a massive ideological stronghold within influential sectors of an emerging Christian subculture in America that likely felt threatened by the counter-culture of the 1960s. A conflation of "traditional American nationalism" with a particular Christian cultural veneer helped make fertile soil for these ideas.

Throw in some influence of Prosperity theology where God's blessings are interpreted as health, wealth, success, and a better state in this world in some fashion or another; with the converse that a less-than-faithful life means the deprivation of such blessings and then expand this to cover the condition of a nation; add on to this a select quoting of some Old Testament to remind people that God judges the nations with heavy America-is-a-kind-of-Israel undertones to indicate America as a chosen/blessed nation with a righteous foundation which has (like Israel of old) fallen to the wayside because of the aforementioned counter-cultural elements seen as detrimental to the cultural comforts of a post-War America perceiving itself as good and Christian and now under attack by diabolical forces.

Well, it creates a cauldron of weirdness. And it's bubbling and frothing all over the place now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MachZer0]

There are probably poor people out there who feel this sense of entitlement. It sounds like the right thinks its almost all of them while the left feels its very few. But I don't remember Jesus asking for a litmus test for helping the poor.

I don't recall Jesus ever demanding that the power of government be used to force people to help the poor.

There are government programs that truly help those in need. People with mental illnesses, those that have been physically abused, and those with severe disabilities. The right's answer to these folks appears to be "earn a living or beg for charity" and that any attempt to work collectively to help these people is "stealing".

Not sure why you included the physically abuse in that group since there is no reason they can't earn a living, but I don't recall any conservatives saying we shouldn't help the disabled

If you guys get your way, hundreds of thousands of people will experience real suffering. And you are trying to convince people that this is what Jesus wants.

That's actually mere speculation. If we got our way, it may be that more people who are slackers would earn their money rather than demand it for free.

 

[Grizzly]

As my family has already been in that last situation, sadly, I know not to rely on the government for assistance.

As for the rest, I'm glad you can spread sarcasm wherever you go. And as you know, I don't get to keep all the money I've earned. I'm sure insurance contracts are more reliable than committing my future into the steely arms of a government who cares so little about me as a person to indebt me by another $13 a day -- in addition to taking 40% of my income. Frankly, I could buy a lot of insurance for that amount per day.

These discussion boards don't carry expression very well. I truly meant that I hoped that nothing bad or catastrophic happened to you (or your family). I have a brother with schizophrenia who lives with my mom (and will live with me soon). We rely on government assistance to help pay for his meds. Without that help, my brother simply would not get those meds. Then I wonder about all the other people with debilitating medical conditions and I wonder how they can make it. At least my brother has a family that won't abandon him. What happens to the person who's not so lucky?

 

[Grizzly]

I don't recall Jesus ever demanding that the power of government be used to force people to help the poor.

And I don't remember Him saying that taxes couldn't be used to help poor people. So let's error on the side of caution and assume Jesus doesn't mind governments looking after poor people. Or at least Jesus turns a blind eye to it...

Not sure why you included the physically abuse in that group since there is no reason they can't earn a living, but I don't recall any conservatives saying we shouldn't help the disabled That's actually mere speculation. If we got our way, it may be that more people who are slackers would earn their money rather than demand it for free.

Again, the right seems to think that the poor is filled mostly with "slackers" who due to their own laziness are not working and are just living off of the sweat of our brow. The left believes that the number of people doing this is far fewer, and most of the people in the "safety net" really do need it.

 

[MachZer0]

And I don't remember Him saying that taxes couldn't be used to help poor people. So let's error on the side of caution and assume Jesus doesn't mind governments looking after poor people. Or at least Jesus turns a blind eye to it...

What we do know is that Jesus gave commands to individuals. The problem with being forced to help the poor through taxation is at least two-fold. First is that in inevitable benefits the slackers who do not deserve help. Second, it is inefficient. If I give a dollar to a poor man, one dollar out of my dollar goes to benefit him. If I give one dollar in taxes to help the poor, there is no way for me to know how much of that one dollar actually reaches the poor and how much goes into supporting the bureaucracy that is there allegedly to help the poor. And now that I think about it, the problem is three fold since there is no Constitutional authorization for taxes going to help the poor, which means that all forms of federal assistance is illegal.

Again, the right seems to think that the poor is filled mostly with "slackers" who due to their own laziness are not working and are just living off of the sweat of our brow. The left believes that the number of people doing this is far fewer, and most of the people in the "safety net" really do need it.

The fact is that there are slackers and with the current system, it is inevitable that we will be supporting them, needlessly, wasting our money. If you have a young boy or girl growing up in a home where the mother doesn't work but instead gets a "check" every month, and the grandmother does the same, what should we expect from the youngsters?

 

[NightHawkeye]

And I don't remember Him saying that taxes couldn't be used to help poor people. So let's error on the side of caution and assume Jesus doesn't mind governments looking after poor people. Or at least Jesus turns a blind eye to it...

It seems that many of us on the right must be OK with this as well ... at least we've tolerated it. Most of us have hearts ... some of us actually tithe to our churches as well ... and give to United Way ... and to Goodwill ... and the Salvation Army ... etc., etc., etc.

Again, the right seems to think that the poor is filled mostly with "slackers" who due to their own laziness are not working and are just living off of the sweat of our brow. The left believes that the number of people doing this is far fewer, and most of the people in the "safety net" really do need it.

Allow me to ask a question then, Grizzly. If the programs of the left actually work, there should be some objective evidence of it, right?

What's the evidence that any of the money thrown into social programs has benefited the intended recipients? It's certainly not showing up in the school system. The colossal failure of the schools has had a ripple effect in inordinate unemployment rates for minorities, squalor and violence in the inner cities.

Speaking for myself, I'm all in favor of keeping what actually works. Help me out here, Grizzly. Which programs actually work? Just feeling good doesn't count. Which programs actually work? I'm drawing the line at the millions spent razing Detroit though ... though admittedly destruction of many of the prior failures was beneficial.

Come on, Griz, show the evidence where the massive social programs have worked.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

And now that I think about it, the problem is three fold since there is no Constitutional authorization for taxes going to help the poor, which means that all forms of federal assistance is illegal.

We agree on this much, at least. States need to have their own versions of welfare, food stamps, etc.

 

[Grizzly]

It seems that many of us on the right must be OK with this as well ... at least we've tolerated it. Most of us have hearts ... some of us actually tithe to our churches as well ... and give to United Way ... and to Goodwill ... and the Salvation Army ... etc., etc., etc.

I have no doubt that many many people on the right give money to charities. I don't doubt that. I just doubt that its enough.

Allow me to ask a question then, Grizzly. If the programs of the left actually work, there should be some objective evidence of it, right?

That's a really tall order. There are many many programs and these programs have had either great success or little to no success.

How about social security? Do you see social security as a failed social program? Or medicare?

Policy Basics: Top Ten Facts about Social Security on the Program's 75th Anniversary — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

 

[MachZer0]

That's a really tall order. There are many many programs and these programs have had either great success or little to no success.

How about social security? Do you see social security as a failed social program? Or medicare?

Policy Basics: Top Ten Facts about Social Security on the Program's 75th Anniversary — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

Social Security is a program that's forced on us and keeps our retirement income lower than what it should be. It's also unsustainable as evidenced by the age requirement changes it's had to endure. Eventually, it will be bankrupt

 

[NightHawkeye]

I have no doubt that many many people on the right give money to charities. I don't doubt that. I just doubt that its enough.

Enough for what?

Lack of accountability has been a common trick of power hungry regimes throughout history.

Obama+Evita And the Money Kept Rolling In - YouTube

BTW, there's a picture of Variant about two-thirds of the way through the video. Didn't see any Grizzlies though. Sorry.

That's a really tall order. There are many many programs and these programs have had either great success or little to no success.

Methinks, Grizzly hasn't looked into any specifics. Your argument will be dynamite just as soon as you offer compelling evidence of the benefit of the social programs. Oughta be simple to find, right? I mean, throw money after poverty ... then, poof ... just that fast, poverty is gone, right? Just offer the accounting, Grizzly. No fair saying there's no evidence ...

If programs work, then there's tons of evidence. When programs don't work ... it usually gets swept under a rug somewhere.

These programs have been going on so long that there's lots of evidence ... just be open to the TRUTH, Grizzly. The evidence is there.

How about social security? Do you see social security as a failed social program?

Now, you're getting real close to home, Grizzly. If I'd been able to save all that I've contributed to Social Security, I'd be set for life now.

Sadly, at best I can expect only a meager payout from Social Security, if anything at all. I'm not complaining that my Social Security contributions went to someone else's retirement. I recognized the program as a Ponzi scheme when I first started working and so I have other savings plans. I just wish that Social Security was actually a trust fund, as originally presented.

Or medicare?

The argument on the right is that Medicare is a disaster of the first order ... a major contributor to escalating medical costs. Like you, I got no evidence ... other than hearing quite a few doctors testify to that effect.

 

[Grizzly]

NHE - are you aware that you're not posting any evidence?

 

[chris4243]

I really hope that's not true. From what I can tell in my 10 years at CF is that many of these people need to believe in God to be moral. I would be afraid to think what this population would be like if most of them had to decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong.

Don't worry, most of them already decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong in their opinion. Wouldn't be much different if they stop saying they believe in God, they'll just stop saying God agrees with them. In fact I don't know anyone who is only held back from being a murdering thieving rapist by their fear of God, even if they might pretend to when arguing for absolute morality.