Greed

[NightHawkeye]

I don't believe I've been a massive cheerleader for Obama, unless of course you consider rejecting paranoid conspiracy theories such as those promulgated by Birthers and nutjobs claiming Obama is an Islamo-marco-fascist.

LOL ... In other words anyone who criticizes Obama for his Marxist/socialist/communist tendencies ...

 

[ViaCrucis]

LOL ... In other words anyone who criticizes Obama for his Marxist/socialist/communist tendencies ...

Since virtually all of those "marxist/socialist/communist tendencies" are utter hogwash, yes.

It's empty rhetoric.

It would be better if people actually addressed real issues, facts, and matters which pertain to reality rather than creating nonsense rhetoric which does not correspond to reality.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Of course that has nothing to do with what I said, noting that the situation has to be twisted to make allowance for the greedy neighbor who only wants more of what he didn't earn.

I was adapting your scenario to better match what it is people are actually concerned about viz-a-viz the rich paying their fair share of taxes. Your scenario, as-is, has no bearing as to what anyone is actually talking about or concerned with.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MachZer0]

I was adapting your scenario to better match what it is people are actually concerned about viz-a-viz the rich paying their fair share of taxes. Your scenario, as-is, has no bearing as to what anyone is actually talking about or concerned with.

-CryptoLutheran

No, you twisted the scenario to fit your perspective which had nothing to do with what I said.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Since virtually all of those "marxist/socialist/communist tendencies" are utter hogwash, yes.

It's empty rhetoric.

It would be better if people actually addressed real issues, facts, and matters which pertain to reality rather than creating nonsense rhetoric which does not correspond to reality.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, allow me to attempt to get a calibration point for continuing this conversation then, CryptoLutheran. I seem recall from prior conversations that you support:
- redistribution of wealth
- social justice
- black liberation theology

Please correct if any of these are in error. Thanks.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Of course that has nothing to do with what I said, noting that the situation has to be twisted to make allowance for the greedy neighbor who only wants more of what he didn't earn.

To be fair, a guy on food stamps is on food stamps because he can't afford food. I think in the same situation, all of us would be just like him.

 

[MachZer0]

To be fair, a guy on food stamps is on food stamps because he can't afford food. I think in the same situation, all of us would be just like him.

Being on food stamps does not make one greedy, but being on food stamps then claiming your neighbor isn't paying his fair share does seem to be an attitude of greed to me.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Well, I'll agree with you on that point.

 

[bricklayer]

If i was earning money and paying taxes, while my neighbor was collecting food stamps and not paying taxes, I would consider him greedy if he said I wasn't paying my fair share.

What if your said neighbor considered you greedy for having more than you need while she is barely surviving?

 

[bricklayer]

If your neighbor has been laid off, is currently injured and unable to get work, has no choice but to rely on a bit of welfare and still has to do everything he can just to exist; while you are taking all kinds of tax breaks, and at times getting even more from the government then what you've paid in taxes then no, you can't consider your neighbor greedy.

-CryptoLutheran

One's degree of need is no measure of their rights.

 

[MachZer0]

What if your said neighbor considered you greedy for having more than you need while she is barely surviving?

If i was trying to take what she had, she might have a point

 

[Umaro]

If i was trying to take what she had, she might have a point

If you're her boss extracting surplus value from her wages, it could be said that's the case.

 

[MachZer0]

If you're her boss extracting surplus value from her wages, it could be said that's the case.

Non Sequitur, we're talking about a hypothetical neighbor

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, allow me to attempt to get a calibration point for continuing this conversation then, CryptoLutheran. I seem recall from prior conversations that you support:
- redistribution of wealth

Yes, insofar as it is befitting a just economic system that benefits the hard-pressed and the down-pressed in their need. This conforms to the broad Christian tradition and is part of the historic Christian ethic.

While I'm not Roman Catholic, the Catholic Church's Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church has some relevant material in this regard:

"Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute and untouchable: “On the contrary, it has always understood this right within the broader context of the right common to all to use the goods of the whole of creation: the right to private property is subordinated to the right to common use, to the fact that goods are meant for everyone”[372]. The principle of the universal destination of goods is an affirmation both of God's full and perennial lordship over every reality and of the requirement that the goods of creation remain ever destined to the development of the whole person and of all humanity[373]. This principle is not opposed to the right to private property[374] but indicates the need to regulate it. Private property, in fact, regardless of the concrete forms of the regulations and juridical norms relative to it, is in its essence only an instrument for respecting the principle of the universal destination of goods; in the final analysis, therefore, it is not an end but a means[375]." - Source

- social justice

Yes. I'm a Christian, I couldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't believe in social justice, it would be an oxymoron to say I believe in Christ and the Holy Scriptures and then reject the entirety of what the biblical message says in regards to justice and the poor.

- black liberation theology

I believe liberation theology (whether black or otherwise) communicates the good and just implications of Christian teaching and how it relates to the oppressed and the least of these. So yes.

Please correct if any of these are in error. Thanks.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

One's degree of need is no measure of their rights.

You may want to crack open your Bible.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[twob4me]

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[EdwinWillers]

One's degree of need is no measure of their rights.

QFT

You may want to crack open your Bible.

-CryptoLutheran

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

 

[Grizzly]

What if your said neighbor considered you greedy for having more than you need while she is barely surviving?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."

There is also some other biblical quote about loving your neighbor. But I am sure it's not relevant here.

 

[katherine2001]

Yes, insofar as it is befitting a just economic system that benefits the hard-pressed and the down-pressed in their need. This conforms to the broad Christian tradition and is part of the historic Christian ethic.

While I'm not Roman Catholic, the Catholic Church's Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church has some relevant material in this regard:

"Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute and untouchable: “On the contrary, it has always understood this right within the broader context of the right common to all to use the goods of the whole of creation: the right to private property is subordinated to the right to common use, to the fact that goods are meant for everyone”[372]. The principle of the universal destination of goods is an affirmation both of God's full and perennial lordship over every reality and of the requirement that the goods of creation remain ever destined to the development of the whole person and of all humanity[373]. This principle is not opposed to the right to private property[374] but indicates the need to regulate it. Private property, in fact, regardless of the concrete forms of the regulations and juridical norms relative to it, is in its essence only an instrument for respecting the principle of the universal destination of goods; in the final analysis, therefore, it is not an end but a means[375]." - Source



Yes. I'm a Christian, I couldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't believe in social justice, it would be an oxymoron to say I believe in Christ and the Holy Scriptures and then reject the entirety of what the biblical message says in regards to justice and the poor.



I believe liberation theology (whether black or otherwise) communicates the good and just implications of Christian teaching and how it relates to the oppressed and the least of these. So yes.



-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis, you should get a copy of the book, "On Social Justice" by St. Basil the Great published by St. Vladimir's Seminary as part of its Popular Patristics Series. It is a series of sermons that St. Basil gave about the wealthy and how they steal from the poor. I particularly like the sermon "I Will Tear Down My Barns". Unfortunately, I can't find the entire sermon online. Here is an excerpt from it:

St. Basil on stealing from the poor « De unione ecclesiarum

I think it is very relevant to the topic of this thread. By the way, St. Basil the Great was a bishop in the 4th Century, but his words are equally relevant to the present. If God gives us material goods, it is so that we can share it with those who need it, not keep it for ourselves. Since I do have the sermon, I can tell people that the next part of the sermon is about how those who do hold onto their wealth rather than sharing it with those in need will face on Judgment Day, when Christ judges us on the guidelines that He set out in the last passage of Matt. 25. The fact is, the Government wouldn't have to have Government programs to help the disadvantaged if we Christians lived out what Christ taught in the last passage of Matt. 25. Unfortunately, too many of us have missed that message and his telling us to build treasures in heaven rather than in this world, and, of course, we do that by giving away our wealth to help others instead of keeping it for ourselves. If we (and I definitely include myself here) shared what we have with those in need, the Government would not have to take it away by force to make sure that the poor are cared for. The Government should not have to take it, we should be willingly giving it to those in need. I think of one of our modern saints, St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, who used to be criticized for serving the services barefoot much of the time when he was in Shanghai. The reason that he would be barefoot is because he would have given his sandals away on his way to the cathedral to someone who didn't have any shoes.

 

[Grizzly]

Can someone please tell me what has happened to Christianity in the past 25 years? Poor people are now called "greedy and covetous" for not earning what they want, taxes are now considered stealing, and somehow its now easy for the rich to get into heaven. Nations that decide they want to care for their poor and sick are now evil, and apparently the only honorable way for the poor to get help is for them to beg in the streets for charity.

What has happened to you people?