Greed

[bricklayer]

Hmm. Let's say that there is a lake nearby that provides water to a local town. It's also available for recreational use. But I want the lake to myself. So I buy it and the surrounding land. And I stop allowing the town to use it as a water source. Nor do I allow anyone near the lake.

Am I being greedy?

Such a person would be greedy to think that he was entitled to anything but scorn from that community. Such a person has not earned anyone's friendship.
An equally greedy person would be so arrogant as to take the lake and do with it as she pleases.

 

[Umaro]

By definition, two workers that earn "different paychecks" don't generate "identical wealth".
They may produce the same product, but they are selling it at different prices.
Please don't ask me to explain price fluctuations to you here; that would take another thread.

By that same token, would it then also be acceptable for the government to use similar economic leverage against your business? If the owner knows he can demand a lower price from the worker because the worker cannot seek emolument elsewhere, wouldn't it follow thy the government can demand a higher price for operating within the city limits, say higher property taxes for instance, because you're still technically free to move your store to the boonies?

 

[chris4243]

What one earns is determined by what another is VOLUNTARILY willing to pay.

How much did a bum earn, who never worked a day in his life, received no government assistance, but was given by a charity $1000 a year?

 

[bricklayer]

Here's another hypothetical. Let's say my church is trying to raise money to help poor people. I have lots of money but I don't donate because that money is mine and I don't want to give it to charity.

Am I being greedy?

No
There is quite a difference between greed and selfishness.
Greed can be a form of selfishness, but not all selfishness is greed.
The above Hypo. is not necessarily greed.

An example of greed, befitting the above Hypo. would be a person in the church voting to transfer the selfish woman's money to the poor.

 

[Autumnleaf]

No
There is quite a difference between greed and selfishness.
Greed can be a form of selfishness, but not all selfishness is greed.
The above Hypo. is not necessarily greed.

An example of greed, befitting the above Hypo. would be a person in the church voting to transfer the selfish woman's money to the poor.

You have workers that work for you. Do you divide how many bricks they lay from the total laid for the job to find out what percentage they earn? Or does you doing paperwork and making a few phone calls entitle you to earn more than whatever share of the bricks you laid yourself?

Business owners have a sweet deal in America. Many of them still manage to get bent out of shape having to pay taxes.

 

[kermit]

Greed is not earning more than one needs.
Greed is wanting more than one earns.

The problem with this definition is that it begs the question "how do we quantify what is earned?"

Who's the arbiter of whether an auto worker making $50k is earning his money and whether the auto CEO making $15M is earning his.

Greed is the desire for more than we have. It is neither good nor bad. It is our actions that are good or bad. If, in your greed, you grow your company by hiring people that are able to support a family that is good. If, in your greed, you grow your company by paying exploiting the poor in 3rd world nations that is bad.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Charity is indispensable for a people to remain free.
The involuntary transfer of wealth is anathema to charity.

"Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey! What will you do on the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth? They shall only bow down under the prisoners, and shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger, the staff in whose hand is my indignation!" - Isaiah 10:1-5

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bricklayer]

You have workers that work for you. Do you divide how many bricks they lay from the total laid for the job to find out what percentage they earn? Or does you doing paperwork and making a few phone calls entitle you to earn more than whatever share of the bricks you laid yourself?

Business owners have a sweet deal in America. Many of them still manage to get bent out of shape having to pay taxes.

Our customers decide what our product is worth. The men that work with me are paid a percentage of the profit.

I am as outraged as you that so many people won't bring themselves to do paperwork and make a few phone calls. It seems a shame that thousands and thousands of people could lay brick or be otherwise employed but for a lack of their willingness to employ even their own efforts, let alone those of others. And here all along, as you have pointed out, all it would take is some paperwork and a few phone calls.

By the way, how's business?

 

[bricklayer]

The problem with this definition is that it begs the question "how do we quantify what is earned?"

Who's the arbiter of whether an auto worker making $50k is earning his money and whether the auto CEO making $15M is earning his.

Greed is the desire for more than we have. It is neither good nor bad. It is our actions that are good or bad. If, in your greed, you grow your company by hiring people that are able to support a family that is good. If, in your greed, you grow your company by paying exploiting the poor in 3rd world nations that is bad.

My customers are the arbiters of the value of my products.
My men are paid a percentage of the profit.

A desire for more than one has is not, in and of itself, greed.
A desire for more than one has is ambition, and ambitions can be easily misplaced.

 

[NightHawkeye]

"Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey! What will you do on the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth? They shall only bow down under the prisoners, and shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger, the staff in whose hand is my indignation!" - Isaiah 10:1-5

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, indeed ... the Assyrian humbles the mighty ones ... but only for a little while ...

Now, the rest of the story ...

Isaiah 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?

9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?

10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;

11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:

14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.

19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. 25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction. 26 And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt. 27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.
​

Being on the side of the Assyrian might not be the wise choice, ViaCrucis.

Just sayin ...

 

[bricklayer]

By that same token, would it then also be acceptable for the government to use similar economic leverage against your business? If the owner knows he can demand a lower price from the worker because the worker cannot seek emolument elsewhere, wouldn't it follow thy the government can demand a higher price for operating within the city limits, say higher property taxes for instance, because you're still technically free to move your store to the boonies?

No. Not against my business. That is obama style crony-capitalism.

Let "the worker who cannot seek emolument elsewhere" motivate you to join me and other entrepreneurs create the competitive environment that elevates the value of labor and expands employment opportunities.

 

[bricklayer]

How much did a bum earn, who never worked a day in his life, received no government assistance, but was given by a charity $1000 a year?

One does not, by definition, earn charity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

By definition, two workers that earn "different paychecks" don't generate "identical wealth".
They may produce the same product, but they are selling it at different prices.
Please don't ask me to explain price fluctuations to you here; that would take another thread.

Actually, in Umaro's example, they did generate identical wealth. The owner just took more of the profit from one than from the other.

 

[bricklayer]

Actually, in Umaro's example, they did generate identical wealth. The owner just took more of the profit from one than from the other.

Wealth is determined by the value others place on what one has.
It is rare that any of my men earn exactly the same.

 

[MachZer0]

Actually, in Umaro's example, they did generate identical wealth. The owner just took more of the profit from one than from the other.

Owners don't take profit from the workers

 

[chris4243]

One does not, by definition, earn charity.

There's a guy, you might know him, who disagrees with you.

What one earns is determined by what another is VOLUNTARILY willing to pay.

Per this definition, if someone voluntarily gives charity to another, that other person earned that much more money. Similarly, if someone voluntarily gives money to a robber at gunpoint (so long as the robber doesn't use any force only threats), then the robber earned what was willingly given him.

But maybe you, like me, disagree with that guy's definition.

 

[WiredSpirit]

Such a person would be greedy to think that he was entitled to anything but scorn from that community. Such a person has not earned anyone's friendship.
An equally greedy person would be so arrogant as to take the lake and do with it as she pleases.

Hey guys, I think we have a breakthrough here.

Those who make their money off naked short selling, buy struggling companies just to load them up with outside debt, liquidate their assets, then declare bankruptcy, or those that bundle junk mortgages as securities and bury them in your 401K earn a lot of scorn.

Those that promote unjust and unpopular wars and keep the cost out of the budget and hidden from scrutiny and offer no way to pay for them earn scorn.

Employers that attempt to justify wage discrimination, or any other form of discrimination, earn scorn.

Etc, etc, etc.

I don't think the person that bought that lake is worried about scorn, so long as they've got the government looking out for their interests and protecting their property "rights."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Wealth is determined by the value others place on what one has.
It is rare that any of my men earn exactly the same.

But, in Umaro's example, they are doing exactly the same work. They are earning the same amount of money for the business, but one is taking home more money. Why?

 

[Umaro]

My customers are the arbiters of the value of my products.
My men are paid a percentage of the profit.

A desire for more than one has is not, in and of itself, greed.
A desire for more than one has is ambition, and ambitions can be easily misplaced.

Your customers determine your salary. What they are willing to pay is equal to the net gain your business receives. But you are the sole arbiter of what percentage your employees get. You could give them 90% or 10% of the profit generated by their labor. Would you ever say there is a point where economic leverage allows an employer to give an employee too small a percentage of the profits?

No. Not against my business. That is obama style crony-capitalism.

Let "the worker who cannot seek emolument elsewhere" motivate you to join me and other entrepreneurs create the competitive environment that elevates the value of labor and expands employment opportunities.

You consider it acceptable for the employer to use economic leverage against the employee, but not for the government to use economic leverage against the employer? Why is that exactly? It's the same leverage being used in the same manner. If it's acceptable for you to take a higher portion of the employees wage because you know they can't easily quit, why is it unacceptable for the government to do the same thing?

Wealth is determined by the value others place on what one has.
It is rare that any of my men earn exactly the same.

The wealth you place on them is not what determines the wealth they generate. If my co-worker and I each spend 1 hour making you a chair that sells for $20, when you sell those two chairs for $40 we have each generated equal wealth for you. If you pay me $8 and him $6.75 because you can use economic leverage against him, you are objectively paying him less as a percentage of what he earned.

 

[kermit]

My customers are the arbiters of the value of my products.

You are muddling concepts now. Your customers are determining the value of yoru products, but they are not determining what percentage of the your company's revenue is yours.

My men are paid a percentage of the profit.

It's rare to see profit sharing in this day. Good for you.

A desire for more than one has is not, in and of itself, greed.
A desire for more than one has is ambition, and ambitions can be easily misplaced.

Greed is a form of ambition. I might have ambition to learn the piano, but that isn't greed. Ambition related to wealth or power is greed. But as you said, any form of ambition can by easily misplaced.