Great tribulation....Sabbath Test?

[jtaime2]

If the sabbath is the test in end times, then what about all the people that have died before. What will their test be?

 

[ricker]

If the sabbath is the test in end times, then what about all the people that have died before. What will their test be?

What does the Bible say about a test that people have to live up to to be saved? If such an important test would exist, would it vary from generation to generation?

I'll cut to the chase. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Any other "test" dreamed up by man (or woman) is a deception.

 

[MidnightCry]

You need to read about the exodus of the Hebrews out of Egypt led by Moses. There are several end time parallels in the story that were written for the final generation.

God demanded the Hebrews observe His Sabbath as a precondition for deliverance. God sent this demand through Moses because He wanted to demonstrate man's rebellion by confronting Pharaoh, the most powerful man on Earth at the time; teach the Hebrews their first lesson in faith, and use Israel and their deliverance as a lesson for generations to come. Unfortunately, Pharaoh's persecution destroyed the faith of most Hebrews. They lost confidence in Moses and in God.

Believers in Christ are now the Hebrews. We are the children of God. During the Great Tribulation, God will once again set His Sabbath rest up in direct opposition to man's laws. Everyone who wants to be delivered from the bondage of sin must submit to God as a precondition to being set free. This will cause our faith to be severely tested.

Salvation comes through faith and God will test our faith to see where each of us will stand. When people deliberately and intentionally choose to suffer because of their faith in God, He makes their faith pure, like gold. This refining process produces the type of people who will inherit the Earth made new. (see Zechariah 13:9)

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[OldStudent]

What does the Bible say about a test that people have to live up to to be saved? If such an important test would exist, would it vary from generation to generation?

I'll cut to the chase. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Any other "test" dreamed up by man (or woman) is a deception.

While your logic can be followed it might also be a bit hasty. Consider these observations:

For the deadly 10th plague God's people marked the doorposts of their homes with the blood of a lamb. Keeping it minimal, the door to their heart was marked with the blood of Jesus. The Death Angel saw this a evidence the Saviors blood had been applied. In the litigious environment of the Great Controversy this also gave evidence to the enemy angels that the Death Angel had the right to Passover these homes and spare the occupants for their passage to the Promised Land.

Judges 12 records a feud. A persons destiny hung on his ability to say "shibboleth." The ability to say it correctly was evidence of tribal identity.

Many of Jesus' parables contained a judgement clause. The clause framed a point of qualification that was quite apparent to any onlooker.

A passage pair to consider: "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them."
"And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God." Ezekiel 20:12, 20.

Now consider the 1st angels message. "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" Rev 14:7. This links the judgement with worship of the Creator in terms of 4th commandment Sabbath language.

The Sabbath is not a test for the people of God - it is evidence, as was the blood on the Passover door that the blood of Jesus has been applied. Jesus has sanctified them and He is their Lord. They have a right to God's protection. It is the flag of allegiance to the Kingdom of Heaven. It is the "shibboleth" that makes it perfectly apparent who is of God's kingdom and who isn't. It is also a test, a point of evidence for who is lost.

Having said "it is not a test for the people of God" it will make them marked targets for those of Satan's subjects. So it will single them out as "persons of interest" for their purposes. There may well be some martyrs singled out by it but their lives will not be lost in the longer view.

 

[ricker]

The Sabbath is not a test for the people of God - it is evidence, as was the blood on the Passover door that the blood of Jesus has been applied. Jesus has sanctified them and He is their Lord. They have a right to God's protection. It is the flag of allegiance to the Kingdom of Heaven. It is the "shibboleth" that makes it perfectly apparent who is of God's kingdom and who isn't. It is also a test, a point of evidence for who is lost.

Where do you find Biblical evidence the Sabbath, given to the Israelites at Sinai as an exclusive sign (EX 31), is now the difinitive evidence, or "flag of allegiance" proving we are followers of Jesus?

Surely the Epistles written to the Gentiles would make extensive references to such an important doctrine, right?

 

[ricker]

If the sabbath is the test in end times, then what about all the people that have died before. What will their test be?

I would like to hear an Adventist's answer to this. We seem to have left the track, so to speak, again.

 

[OldStudent]

Where do you find Biblical evidence the Sabbath, given to the Israelites at Sinai as an exclusive sign (EX 31), is now the difinitive evidence, or "flag of allegiance" proving we are followers of Jesus?

Surely the Epistles written to the Gentiles would make extensive references to such an important doctrine, right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be strong undercurrent in peoples mind that the NT is a new set of Scripture superseding the OT. If it isn't in the NT it is of no concern to us now except, perhaps, some its stories provide food for thought. I can't buy that. The Scriptures of Jesus, Paul, and the apostles were the OT. Those Scriptures were authoritative as its use was basic to much of what was presented to Jew or Gentile.

God wrote the law containing the Sabbath clause in stone - twice. The Tabernacle and its services embodied in visible, active form key features of the Kingdom of God and the working of His plan for our salvation. The first thing God described to Moses about the Tabernacle was His throne - the Ark of the Covenant. That law was embeded in His throne under the Mercy Seat. Thus that law is signified as an essential essence of the Kingdom of God. God has never edited or authorized an edit to the law on which His throne rests and which the quality of His grace and mercy seeks to transform us to obedience.

If you review my post you will see some evidence of Sabbath honor post resurrection. I also suggest doing a search on "sabbath" in the life of Jesus. It is amazing how much effort, risk, and commentary He brought to bear on the matter. It was that important to Him then. There is no evidence that edge has been blunted since.

I tend to hold that the Reformation was not over after a few generations following Luther. One reason a church came about taking the name "Seventh-day Adventist" is that it was important that the Sabbath be restored in the context of the soon coming of Jesus. It is worth noting that the message of the angel flying in the midst of heaven with the everlasing gospel (Rev 14) is including language of judgment, creation, and Sabbath in his message. Observing the seventh day sabbath can be expected to be a characteristic of His people in that time. When all people of earth are faced with the stark choice of their kingdom of choice it can be expected that there will be distinctive characteristics of each kingdom. It is likely that the day "sanctified" by each kingdom will be one distinguishing characteristic.

 

[OldStudent]

Originally Posted by jtaime2
If the sabbath is the test in end times, then what about all the people that have died before. What will their test be?

I would like to hear an Adventist's answer to this. We seem to have left the track, so to speak, again.

My post just previous to this addressed this to some degree. There is a sense in which the term "test" may fit and be useful. But rather than "test" it is also quite helpful to think in terms of "evidence." "Evidence" of ones faith in Jesus as his Lord is that he also observes the Sabbath of Jesus as He did.

A key part of your question is "in end times." At "crunch time" stark contrasts and meticulous details can be expected to be present unlike any other time in history. The fulcrums over which an entire planets populous destinies are to be simultainously set must be sharp and unequivocally defined and evident. That circumstance has never before existed. Until that point there can rightfully be wiggle room for individual cases not having all the details in place. The key point in all cases, however, is that a person faithfully submits to what God is asking of them. Then at the 2nd coming He is justified in completing His work in them in the twinkling of an eye as He has been granted that permission already on an ongoing basis. He is not over-ruling any persons evidenced choice and will.

 

[ricker]

Originally Posted by jtaime2
If the sabbath is the test in end times, then what about all the people that have died before. What will their test be?




My post just previous to this addressed this to some degree. There is a sense in which the term "test" may fit and be useful. But rather than "test" it is also quite helpful to think in terms of "evidence." "Evidence" of ones faith in Jesus as his Lord is that he also observes the Sabbath of Jesus as He did.

A key part of your question is "in end times." At "crunch time" stark contrasts and meticulous details can be expected to be present unlike any other time in history. The fulcrums over which an entire planets populous destinies are to be simultainously set must be sharp and unequivocally defined and evident. That circumstance has never before existed. Until that point there can rightfully be wiggle room for individual cases not having all the details in place. The key point in all cases, however, is that a person faithfully submits to what God is asking of them. Then at the 2nd coming He is justified in completing His work in them in the twinkling of an eye as He has been granted that permission already on an ongoing basis. He is not over-ruling any persons evidenced choice and will.

So pre-SDA the "test" would not be something specific as in keeping the Sabbath will be/is, but that the person had faithfully submitted to whichever of God's laws that they were aware of?

 

[OldStudent]

So pre-SDA the "test" would not be something specific as in keeping the Sabbath will be/is, but that the person had faithfully submitted to whichever of God's laws that they were aware of?

I sense you are feeling out a line of "fairness" and "consistency” through history in terms of adherence to check lists of requirements. While there are “check lists” there is also a broader aspect.

By the way, Sabbath observance is not new with SDA's. It has always been observed by at least a small number of people (not counting Jews). Our founders first heard it from a Seventh-day Baptist lady years before the term SDA was coined.

Years ago a local elder gave a classic sermon titled, “The Other Unpardonable Sin.” His summary conclusion was something like this: “The other unpardonable sin is the thing God asks of you but you won’t give Him.” The rich young ruler kept the check lists scrupulously but he valued his assets more than the opportunities to be of service. He turned away from Jesus. A story in Luke 14:16 and on shows more issues that result in personal disqualification. None of these were check points of the law – directly. Though when you look more deeply they all have an element of covetousness or sense of values that was short sighted. The Sabbath is a moot point if there isn’t first a firm turning to Jesus as the Christ and Lord of their/our lives. Then the Sabbath rightfully becomes AN evidence of that lordship. If the world then doesn’t like the witness of that lordship then THEY may turn it into a test like the jealous men tried to get Daniel killed for his prayer habit. Is it a "test?" It tests the unrighteous in their determination to be unrighteous. It may be a test for the righteous (especially for the unsettled) but they are more likely to just face it in adherence to God's will and let Him deal with it. As with many of Jesus' parables this just places the judgement factors in plain sight for all to see. God cannot then be charged with favoritism, personal fickleness, or even vindictivness.

 

[ricker]

I sense you are feeling out a line of "fairness" and "consistency” through history in terms of adherence to check lists of requirements. While there are “check lists” there is also a broader aspect.

By the way, Sabbath observance is not new with SDA's. It has always been observed by at least a small number of people (not counting Jews). Our founders first heard it from a Seventh-day Baptist lady years before the term SDA was coined.

Hmm, what ary you trying to say with the bolded statement (which may be true or not, doesn't really matter).
Are you saying in a round about way that Christians through the ages should have know Sabbath keeping was required of them and will be lost if they didn't measure up? A different reason?

Why do you think it is important to believe there were continuously at least a few Christians on this planet at any given time in the last 2000 years that thought the Sabbath was required of them?

 

[OldStudent]

Hmm, what ary you trying to say with the bolded statement (which may be true or not, doesn't really matter).
Are you saying in a round about way that Christians through the ages should have know Sabbath keeping was required of them and will be lost if they didn't measure up? A different reason?

Why do you think it is important to believe there were continuously at least a few Christians on this planet at any given time in the last 2000 years that thought the Sabbath was required of them?

I divide my response in 2 parts.

SDA’s have a weakness for over rating the Sabbath. God has always has His faithful present on earth. Sabbath isn’t the matter that is bugging you. There is something about judgment that is harassing you. You are looking for THE point you have to get right to pass judgment. The closest I can come to that is found in Matthew 25. In the latter part of ch 24 Jesus is building a thirst in His audience for getting ready for His return. Ch 25 is His answer key to the question:

1st: Accept the invitation to the party. Having accepted the invitation, embedded in the story is the key importance of having the extra measure of oil.

2nd: My study indicates that the extra measure is acquired through investing the talents He has fitted you with and making a return on that investment.

3rd: Here is how to invest and the result of the investment. If the four fold repetition in the 3rd story means anything, THIS is the point you MUST get right. BOTH the “sheep” and the “goats” were nonplussed at the pivotal point on which their destiny hung. It was over apparently thoughtless (“disinterested”) service. The nature of their hearts was shown in how they responded to the needs of others in their environment. This employed their talents and provided them with the extra measure of oil to get them through difficult and/or unexpected times. If you are looking for A test THIS IS IT.

Have I ditched all the law? NO! The law provides parameters of safe operation and shaped key characteristics of how they lived. The law didn’t concern them or Jesus for in serving as He did and would they wouldn’t cross any of those boundaries anyway. They would have needed the Sabbath as a tool to refresh, regroup, and set direction to keep their service faithful and on target so that was a given natural.

 

[OldStudent]

Hmm, what ary you trying to say with the bolded statement (which may be true or not, doesn't really matter).
Are you saying in a round about way that Christians through the ages should have know Sabbath keeping was required of them and will be lost if they didn't measure up? A different reason?

Why do you think it is important to believe there were continuously at least a few Christians on this planet at any given time in the last 2000 years that thought the Sabbath was required of them?

In post 9 you replied: So pre-SDA the "test" would not be something specific as in keeping the Sabbath will be/is, but that the person had faithfully submitted to whichever of God's laws that they were aware of.

I meant nothing about a point of judgment. I was merely pointing out that Sabbath observance was not an SDA invention or revelation. It could have been an issue with some at any point – especially since Sinai and even through the Middle Ages.

The topic and aspects of “judgment” might deserve several threads. I will make this observation on what I read behind your commentary so far.

The destiny of those who have lived before and for whom death has sealed their destiny is not a matter we can fruitfully discuss. That aspect of judgment belongs solely in the hands of God. He has an overview we cannot fathom. He has insight into hearts that, fortunately, we don’t have. What He brings to bear on His assessments will, I believe, be open for review during the Millennium. As the outcome of that investigation will impact both our contentment for eternity and the level of punishment the lost will endure until their existence ceases.

Now I am going to possibly make it really difficult for you – for us. “…The soul that sinneth, it shall die” Ezek 18:4, 20. What is sin?

“Sin is transgression of the law” 1 John 3:4. The old standby. BUT don’t miss these:

"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23.
“But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors” James 2:9.
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” James 4:17.

Ouch! Ouch! And Ouch!

These are all qualities God, only God can rightly judge and as He points to specifics in our personal character. We mustn’t tangle our minds with judging other peoples destinys.

As for our own place in all this? Only by the grace of God and His incredible miracle of re-creation in us do we have a ghost of a chance. But it isn’t just a ghost of a chance – it is assured when we let Him exercise His desires and His rights in us and through us knowing He isn’t capricious or self-serving at our expense. He will meticulously preserve our personality while removing that which is destructive in us.

 

[ricker]

I divide my response in 2 parts.

SDA’s have a weakness for over rating the Sabbath. God has always has His faithful present on earth. Sabbath isn’t the matter that is bugging you. There is something about judgment that is harassing you. You are looking for THE point you have to get right to pass judgment. The closest I can come to that is found in Matthew 25. In the latter part of ch 24 Jesus is building a thirst in His audience for getting ready for His return. Ch 25 is His answer key to the question:

1st: Accept the invitation to the party. Having accepted the invitation, embedded in the story is the key importance of having the extra measure of oil.

2nd: My study indicates that the extra measure is acquired through investing the talents He has fitted you with and making a return on that investment.

3rd: Here is how to invest and the result of the investment. If the four fold repetition in the 3rd story means anything, THIS is the point you MUST get right. BOTH the “sheep” and the “goats” were nonplussed at the pivotal point on which their destiny hung. It was over apparently thoughtless (“disinterested”) service. The nature of their hearts was shown in how they responded to the needs of others in their environment. This employed their talents and provided them with the extra measure of oil to get them through difficult and/or unexpected times. If you are looking for A test THIS IS IT.

Have I ditched all the law? NO! The law provides parameters of safe operation and shaped key characteristics of how they lived. The law didn’t concern them or Jesus for in serving as He did and would they wouldn’t cross any of those boundaries anyway. They would have needed the Sabbath as a tool to refresh, regroup, and set direction to keep their service faithful and on target so that was a given natural.

What do you believe the oil in the virgin's lamps represents?

There is much writen in Adventist circles about how anyone who goes to church on Sunday is bowing down to the Beast, but Sabbath worhippers will be saved. That does seem like a clear line, or test, dividing the lost and saved.

I've known SDA's who have fought tooth and nail (figuratively) to defend the belief that the Sabbath has been continuously kept by Christians throughout history, and have always wondered why. Does that make the viability of Sabbath keeping more believable?

I believe the Sabbath was one of the ceremonial laws done away with at the cross, but I wont get much love for that position here.

 

[ricker]

OldStudentaithfully 62509923]In post 9 you replied: So pre-SDA the "test" would not be something specific as in keeping the Sabbath will be/is, but that the person had submitted to whichever of God's laws that they were aware of.

I meant nothing about a point of judgment. I was merely pointing out that Sabbath observance was not an SDA invention or revelation. It could have been an issue with some at any point – especially since Sinai and even through the Middle Ages.

The topic and aspects of “judgment” might deserve several threads. I will make this observation on what I read behind your commentary so far.

The destiny of those who have lived before and for whom death has sealed their destiny is not a matter we can fruitfully discuss. That aspect of judgment belongs solely in the hands of God. He has an overview we cannot fathom. He has insight into hearts that, fortunately, we don’t have. What He brings to bear on His assessments will, I believe, be open for review during the Millennium. As the outcome of that investigation will impact both our contentment for eternity and the level of punishment the lost will endure until their existence ceases.

Now I am going to possibly make it really difficult for you – for us. “…The soul that sinneth, it shall die” Ezek 18:4, 20. What is sin?

“Sin is transgression of the law” 1 John 3:4. The old standby. BUT don’t miss these:

"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23.
“But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors” James 2:9.
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” James 4:17.

Ouch! Ouch! And Ouch!

These are all qualities God, only God can rightly judge and as He points to specifics in our personal character. We mustn’t tangle our minds with judging other peoples destinys.

As for our own place in all this? Only by the grace of God and His incredible miracle of re-creation in us do we have a ghost of a chance. But it isn’t just a ghost of a chance – it is assured when we let Him exercise His desires and His rights in us and through us knowing He isn’t capricious or self-serving at our expense. He will meticulously preserve our personality while removing that which is destructive in us.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness NASB

That verse in whatever version you want to quote it is saying there is sin apart from the law. It never says or implies we have to keep all the law given to the Nation of Israel.

 

[OldStudent]

What do you believe the oil in the virgin's lamps represents?

The best evidence I have is in the Tabernacle. The three persons of God are represented in the Holy Place. Father and Son by the two stacks of bread on the Table of Shewbread. The Holy Spirit is fittingly seen in the Lampstand. The Holy Spirit's specialty is illumination. The illumination must be maintained by the presence of oil in the lamps.

Zachariah 4 carries strong implication relating oil and the Holy Spirit.

If this is the case then the oil in the lamps of the virgins would be likened to their holding the Holy Spirit. While they all had a measure of the Spirit some of them had an extra measure. For while I was puzzled about how a person could "store" an extra meaure of the Holy Spirit. In the next story Jesus seems to develop that answer to that - it seems to derive from the benefits of service.

Ellen White states the oil signifies the Holy Spirit (COL 407). That the benefits of the Holy Spirit are not transferable as borne out by behaviors in the parable. "So from the holy ones that stand in God’s presence His Spirit is imparted to the human instrumentalities who are consecrated to His service" (COL 408). The chapter is well worth some time.

There is much writen in Adventist circles about how anyone who goes to church on Sunday is bowing down to the Beast, but Sabbath worhippers will be saved. That does seem like a clear line, or test, dividing the lost and saved.

Sounds like the Hebrews having blood on the doorposts Passover night. Is that a problem in your thought world? To me the parallel is quite fitting. They were prepared for their exodus and we for ours.

Consider this link: Rome ADMITS they changed the Sabbath
I have read some the Vatican's thought on Sabbath including a recent statement from the Papal office. There is excellent understanding about Sabbath there. It's just the "given" that its solemnity was transfered to Sunday that puts us apart.

I've known SDA's who have fought tooth and nail (figuratively) to defend the belief that the Sabbath has been continuously kept by Christians throughout history, and have always wondered why. Does that make the viability of Sabbath keeping more believable?

No. As I was applying the history it deflects the idea that somehow Sabbath observance is an "adventist" thing of our creation. It is one of several things that we get straight in preparation for the last show down.

 

[OldStudent]

I believe the Sabbath was one of the ceremonial laws done away with at the cross, but I wont get much love for that position here.

No, you won't get much love for that but I hope you will be treated with respect anyhow.

Say we accept this commonly held point of view. Then I have to submit that Jesus made several mistakes in His understanding of the Sabbath.

He overstated the jurisdiction of the Sabbath in stating it was made for man – a generic, all inclusive audience.

There are few, if any, single topics Jesus was so deliberate about bringing to discussion. On several occasions He deliberately set the table knowing He would create contentious discussion regarding Sabbath observance. He got one guy in deep trouble getting him evicted from the synagogue. A couple times He received death threats over it. The matter was valuable enough to Him that He willingly put His life and ministry at risk over it. Yet He didn’t seem to understand that it wasn’t worth all the heat and risk as it would be a moot point after the Resurrection.

We see His misunderstanding again in Matthew 24. Jesus was explaining to the disciples that hard times were to come suddenly at some point in the future. They would have to make a quick escape to save their lives. They were to “pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” vs 20. Apparently He expected the Sabbath would still be honored past His death. None of this happened even before His ascension. He made this assertion not realizing it would not stand muster in the upcoming Christian era. If He knew of hard times coming why wouldn't He know there was to be an edit to the Sabbath (which God wrote in stone) and give us a heads up?

He laid claim to lordship of the the Sabbath. This means that He was qualified to define it and establish its qualities and specifications. How are we to think of His lordship? If Jesus missed so thoroughly missed this, what else did He miss? Did someone correct Him? Who would have the authority?

Given the opening premise, does any of this make sense?

Please don't chew on me for not puting verses with all of this. Brevity is in order in this venue. Bring up an Online Bible and search "sabbath" in the gospels. It is helpful to copy and paste all of the incidents, group them together where appropriate, and print the result. It won't take long. You will have some-teen entries. I was rather astonished with what came up. See if I missed something.

 

[ricker]

[=OldStudent;62529421]Say we accept this commonly held point of view. Then I have to submit that Jesus made several mistakes in His understanding of the Sabbath.

He overstated the jurisdiction of the Sabbath in stating it was made for man – a generic, all inclusive audience.

Interesting you should say Jesus was speaking to an all-inclusive audience. On what do you base this belief?

Matt 12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath


Mark 23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

6 Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. 2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 3 And Jesus answering them said, “Have you not even read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him, 4 how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the consecrated bread which is not lawful for any to eat except the priests alone, and gave it to his companions?” 5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Notice none of these Gospels said anything about Gentiles being present. Pharisees weren't too keen on being around them as you probably know. The audience was most likely Jewish. Too bad for you Jesus didn't say
"mankind", or something to that effect.

There are few, if any, single topics Jesus was so deliberate about bringing to discussion. On several occasions He deliberately set the table knowing He would create contentious discussion regarding Sabbath observance. He got one guy in deep trouble getting him evicted from the synagogue. A couple times He received death threats over it. The matter was valuable enough to Him that He willingly put His life and ministry at risk over it. Yet He didn’t seem to understand that it wasn’t worth all the heat and risk as it would be a moot point after the Resurrection.

Far from doctrinal teaching here. Jesus was baiting the Pharisees and teachers of the law. If Sabbath keeping was so important and it's observance was different from what the Jews taught, why wasn't it mentioned at all in the Epistles to the Gentiles, who didn't have the Gospels to read yet?

We see His misunderstanding again in Matthew 24. Jesus was explaining to the disciples that hard times were to come suddenly at some point in the future. They would have to make a quick escape to save their lives. They were to “pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” vs 20. Apparently He expected the Sabbath would still be honored past His death. None of this happened even before His ascension. He made this assertion not realizing it would not stand muster in the upcoming Christian era. If He knew of hard times coming why wouldn't He know there was to be an edit to the Sabbath (which God wrote in stone) and give us a heads up?

Do you believe it would be a sin to flee for your life on the Sabbath? I suppose Jesus knew not every Jew would convert to Christianity and some converted Jews would still want to keep the Sabbath so yes, the Sabbath would still be honored.

He laid claim to lordship of the the Sabbath. This means that He was qualified to define it and establish its qualities and specifications. How are we to think of His lordship? If Jesus missed so thoroughly missed this, what else did He miss? Did someone correct Him? Who would have the authority?

If Jesus had said the Sabbath was for all mankind the Pharisees would have totally blown a fuse. The understanding was then that it was only for Jews and obviously they were very protective and specific about it's observance. Jesus was and is Lord over everything.

Please don't chew on me for not puting verses with all of this. Brevity is in order in this venue. Bring up an Online Bible and search "sabbath" in the gospels. It is helpful to copy and paste all of the incidents, group them together where appropriate, and print the result. It won't take long. You will have some-teen entries. I was rather astonished with what came up. See if I missed something.

Check how many times the word "Sabbath is used post-cross, under the New Covenant, in the Epistles God instructed Paul to write to the new Gentile churches and get back to me.

God bless!

 

[ricker]

[=OldStudent;62529097]The best evidence I have is in the Tabernacle. The three persons of God are represented in the Holy Place. Father and Son by the two stacks of bread on the Table of Shewbread. The Holy Spirit is fittingly seen in the Lampstand. The Holy Spirit's specialty is illumination. The illumination must be maintained by the presence of oil in the lamps.

Zachariah 4 carries strong implication relating oil and the Holy Spirit.

If this is the case then the oil in the lamps of the virgins would be likened to their holding the Holy Spirit. While they all had a measure of the Spirit some of them had an extra measure. For while I was puzzled about how a person could "store" an extra meaure of the Holy Spirit. In the next story Jesus seems to develop that answer to that - it seems to derive from the benefits of service.

Ellen White states the oil signifies the Holy Spirit (COL 407). That the benefits of the Holy Spirit are not transferable as borne out by behaviors in the parable. "So from the holy ones that stand in God’s presence His Spirit is imparted to the human instrumentalities who are consecrated to His service" (COL 408). The chapter is well worth some time.

Agreed. I believe the oil is the Holy Spirit, too.

Sounds like the Hebrews having blood on the doorposts Passover night. Is that a problem in your thought world? To me the parallel is quite fitting. They were prepared for their exodus and we for ours.

Consider this link: Rome ADMITS they changed the Sabbath
I have read some the Vatican's thought on Sabbath including a recent statement from the Papal office. There is excellent understanding about Sabbath there. It's just the "given" that its solemnity was transfered to Sunday that puts us apart.

I don't believe the "solemnity" of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday and neither do most Protestants I know. We surely don't worship Sunday like you do Sabbath. I work at a secular job every Sunday afternoon and my pastor know it and has never said anything bad about it.

It doesn't surprise me some Catholics claim to have changed the day of worship and that most protestantism has followed them. Are you surprised? Doesn't make it true.

No. As I was applying the history it deflects the idea that somehow Sabbath observance is an "adventist" thing of our creation. It is one of several things that we get straight in preparation for the last show down.

I don't doubt there have been others that promote the Saturday Sabbath is still binding. I'm not sure how many of them have said that those who choose to go to church on Sunday will get the mark of the beast and will be lost because of it.

 

[OldStudent]

I am responding to your post in several pieces. If you should decide to wade through all of this your patience and consideration is appreciated.

Interesting you should say Jesus was speaking to an all-inclusive audience. On what do you base this belief?

I didn't mean to imply Jesus was speaking to an all inclusive audience. The audience for Sabbath was all of humanity. According to John 1 and Col 1 it was Jesus whose voice initiated the existence of all that exists. It was He who blessed and sanctified the 7th day as the completion of creation and made it the punctuation mark of the week. The sole audience then (at that time) was the totality of humanity - Adam. Abraham was not for another 2000 years. Sinai adds almost 700 more. It was God (likely Jesus again) who memorialized the day in stone citing the creation event as its basis.

Notice none of these Gospels said anything about Gentiles being present. Pharisees weren't too keen on being around them as you probably know. The audience was most likely Jewish. Too bad for you Jesus didn't say "mankind", or something to that effect.

It was rare that the teaching of Jesus included or was directed to a Gentile audience. Therefore the Sermon on the Mount, the teaching recorded in John 13-17, and indeed much the rest of the record of the Gospels has nothing to say to us (Gentiles) as, with few exceptions, it was all to Jewish audiences. Therefore the whole idea of Gentile Christian is an oxymoron (if He needed to be teaching Gentiles for it to apply to them). We can't selectively excise Sabbath teaching as "Jewish" teaching and also hold the other teaching as valid.

Far from doctrinal teaching here. Jesus was baiting the Pharisees and teachers of the law. If Sabbath keeping was so important and it's observance was different from what the Jews taught, why wasn't it mentioned at all in the Epistles to the Gentiles, who didn't have the Gospels to read yet?

Yes, this was one of several times Jesus baited conversation. Jesus was making no change to the Sabbath as God defined it. He was overturning tradition the Jews had overburdened it with. The then available Scripture was quite adequate to handle teaching on the matter as God intended it.

If Jesus had said the Sabbath was for all mankind the Pharisees would have totally blown a fuse. The understanding was then that it was only for Jews and obviously they were very protective and specific about it's observance. Jesus was and is Lord over everything.

There is room for the likelihood that the Pharisees were focused on Jesus' immediate infraction and did not consider picking up on perceived exclusiveness. They may have realized the "exclusive" argument was unaddressable as His precedent came at some 2700 years before theirs.

Check how many times the word "Sabbath is used post-cross, under the New Covenant, in the Epistles God instructed Paul to write to the new Gentile churches and get back to me.

Ahh, the "New Covenant" ruse. There are commonly held perceptions about the "New Covenant" and what it means. What I have noticed is that there is "urban legend" - tradition handed down - about what New Covenant entails. I recently realized there were problems with its definition but couldn't really define why. It was time to look at that and see what comes of the Scripture speaking for itself on the matter. The next couple of posts summarize the findings. I will approach the "epistle" record in another post.