Grafted In

[Strong in Him]

The truth is that it would be breaking YHWH's perfect Law to stone someone to death outside of the judgement of YHWH's Court of Judges, according to YHWH's perfect Law.

So another law from Leviticus that we don't keep.
Ok.

 

[HARK!]

The author of the book of Hebrews thought so too; he/she said that the old covenant was obsolete, that where there was a change of priesthood then there is also a change of the law, Hebrews 7:12.

The 1st definition of G3331 is transfer, not change.

G3331 - metathesis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The laws concerning the High Priesthood were transferred with the Priesthood.

To say that the law was changed, does not only fail the Deuteronomy 13 test; it's in contradiction yo the TaNaK,

(CLV) Ps 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian.

..and even the words of Yahshua:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

(CLV) Mt 24:35
Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by.

 

[HARK!]

What is the Torah; you haven't yet said.
God's law as recorded in the first 5 books of Scripture? Or God's law minus some of the difficult verses about beards in Leviticus?

I believe it's no minor coincidence that the word Torah which and be defined as law, direction, instruction, is outlined in the first five books of the Bible, also known as the Torah.

What's difficult about beard verses?

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) Dt 30:10
when you hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim to observe His instructions and His statutes, the ones written in this scroll of the law, once you return to Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) Dt 30:11
For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.

(CLV) Dt 30:12
It is neither in the heavens for you to say: Who shall ascend to the heavens for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?

(CLV) Dt 30:13
Nor is it across the sea for you to say: Who shall cross across the sea for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?

(CLV) Dt 30:14
For the word is exceedingly near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.

(CLV) Dt 30:15
See! I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

(CLV) Dt 30:16
If you should hearken to the instructions of Yahweh your Elohim that I am enjoining on you today, to love Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in His ways and to observe His instructions, His statutes and His ordinances, then you will live and multiply, and Yahweh your Elohim will bless you in the land where you are entering to tenant it.

 

[HARK!]

Congratulations on your consistency.

Thank you. Esteem to YHWH!

I don't know how many people you've stoned to death

Zero! I wouldn't dare usurp his perfect law in absence of the duly appointed Judges of his Courts. I thought that we covered this already.

how you square circumcision by Paul's words

I'll leave it up to the Ruach HaKodesh to reconcile that for you, in light of the fact that Paul circumcised Timothy.

I reconciled it here: Circumcision

his words that food does not bring us closer to God

I made no such claim. Why do you bring it up?

Jesus didn't teach the food laws.

Yahshua obeyed YHWH's dietary laws. He called us to follow his example. I know of no other way.

 

[HARK!]

The food and hygiene laws given to the Hebrews at Sinai; those rescued from Egypt by God, were not given to me. I have no Jewish ancestry or heritage.

Not all of the Hebrews at Sinai were of Jewish ancestry, nor even the descendants of Abraham; but the mixed multitude agreed to do all that YHWH commanded; as they entered covenant with him.

 

[HARK!]

Great.
He didn't teach circumcision or food laws.

He taught all of YHWH's perfect Torah.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 

[HARK!]

So another law from Leviticus that we don't keep.
Ok.

Speak for yourself. I am not a duly appointed Judge of his Court.

I keep his law in that I wouldn't dare stone someone to death outside the letter of YHWH's law.

Abstaining from murder is not transgression of the law.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But he did not teach the Jewish law.

How can you even say that with a straight face?!?!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus is the Truth, and his Spirit of Truth lives in me.

So He wrote the Torah and you say it is not truth? Was it all fake, a lie?

 

[Strong in Him]

The 1st definition of G3331 is transfer, not change.

G3331 - metathesis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The laws concerning the High Priesthood were transferred with the Priesthood.

To say that the law was changed, does not only fail the Deuteronomy 13 test; it's in contradiction yo the TaNaK,

I didn't say the law had changed, I said the priesthood had changed.
Call it transfer if you wish but the effect is the same. Hebrews 7 talks of the Levitical priesthood, and then says that Jesus was a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron.
Jesus is our great High priest; Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi, as Jewish priests are.

 

[Strong in Him]

I believe it's no minor coincidence that the word Torah which and be defined as law, direction, instruction, is outlined in the first five books of the Bible, also known as the Torah.

What's difficult about beard verses?

Nothing at all.

I'm just pointing out, and have been all along, that if you believe in keeping the law as given to Moses and recorded in Leviticus, then that includes often overlooked verses, such as "do not trim the ends of your beards or the hair at he sides of your heads", Leviticus 19:27. Or "rise in the presence of the aged", Leviticus 19:32.

On this forum, threads on the law usually focus on not eating pork and keeping the Sabbath; sometimes circumcision is also mentioned. Some folk insist that we have to keep God's law in these matters. But there are many other laws in Leviticus that never get mentioned. These were given by God and recorded in Leviticus, in the word of God; our Bibles.
My point has always been that if you insist that Christians HAVE to keep the law; every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, then you have to keep all these others - which includes stoning Sabbath breakers - too. If you do, then good for you; you practice what you preach.
But if people say "we don't need to keep THAT law", or "that law was only given for ....", then they are picking and choosing. They are saying that some parts of Leviticus are enforceable but not others.

Which is why I asked the question; what do you mean by "the law"?

 

[HARK!]

I didn't say the law had changed, I said the priesthood had changed.
Call it transfer if you wish but the effect is the same. Hebrews 7 talks of the Levitical priesthood, and then says that Jesus was a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron.
Jesus is our great High priest; Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi, as Jewish priests are.

The High Priesthood was transferred; but here are some verses which define the eternal nature of the Levitical Priesthood.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Num 25:11
Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, reversed My fury from on the sons of Israel in his zeal- for My jealousy in their midst so I did not finish the sons of Israel in My jealousy.

(CLV) Num 25:12
Therefore say: Behold Me giving to him My covenant of peace;

(CLV) Num 25:13
it will be his and his seed's after him, the covenant of an eonian priesthood, inasmuch as he was zealous for his Elohim and made a propitiatory shelter over the sons of Israel.

(CLV) Jer 33:19
The word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah, saying-,

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Nothing at all.

I'm just pointing out, and have been all along, that if you believe in keeping the law as given to Moses and recorded in Leviticus, then that includes often overlooked verses, such as "do not trim the ends of your beards or the hair at he sides of your heads", Leviticus 19:27. Or "rise in the presence of the aged", Leviticus 19:32.

On this forum, threads on the law usually focus on not eating pork and keeping the Sabbath; sometimes circumcision is also mentioned. Some folk insist that we have to keep God's law in these matters. But there are many other laws in Leviticus that never get mentioned. These were given by God and recorded in Leviticus, in the word of God; our Bibles.
My point has always been that if you insist that Christians HAVE to keep the law; every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, then you have to keep all these others - which includes stoning Sabbath breakers - too. If you do, then good for you; you practice what you preach.
But if people say "we don't need to keep THAT law", or "that law was only given for ....", then they are picking and choosing. They are saying that some parts of Leviticus are enforceable but not others.

Which is why I asked the question; what do you mean by "the law"?

Well not ALL laws are for ALL people...some are just for men, others just for Kohenim, others for woman, etc. Also, some can not be kept because of current circumstances....no temple, etc. So when you say "law", do you mean JUST Torah or do you also include oral torah?

 

[HARK!]

My point has always been that if you insist that Christians HAVE to keep the law; every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, then you have to keep all these others - which includes stoning Sabbath breakers - too.

I've already explained that stonings are not to be done outside of the jurisdiction of the Judges of YHWH's Court. When the Court is reestablished then the stoning laws will become applicable again.

It is my understanding that stonings were uncommon under the jurisdiction of the Court; that they would only take place about every 7 years or so. This would seem to be an indication that it was a truly kadosh nation by today's standards.

I've read studies that over 50% of husbands have cheated on the wives in the U.S.; and that nearly 50% of wives in the U.S. have cheated on their husbands. Wouldn't be a wonderful thing if we lived in a nation where this lawlessness wasn't left unchecked?

 

[HARK!]

Well not ALL laws are for ALL people...some are just for men, others just for Kohenim, others for woman, etc. Also, some can not be kept because of current circumstances....no temple, etc.

I was considering covering this point in my last post.

 

[Strong in Him]

Zero! I wouldn't dare usurp his perfect law in absence of the duly appointed Judges of his Courts. I thought that we covered this already.

But he commanded that we keep the Sabbath and said to Moses that those who work on the Sabbath should be stoned to death, Exodus 35:2.
So did he give that law and then change his mind? Did he forget that he had also given a command not to murder? Or is stoning to death a Sabbath breaker a law that was given then, for those people, but which we don't keep any longer?

Thank you. Esteem to YHWH!
I'll leave it up to the Ruach HaKodesh to reconcile that for you, in light of the fact that Paul circumcised Timothy.

I don't need to have it reconciled; I'm asking you.

I have said, a number of times, that Paul circumcised Timothy because he wanted to take Timothy into the temple, or to talk to Jews. And as Timothy was Greek, he circumcised him so that Jews would accept him and not get upset that he was defiling the temple.
Becoming like someone, or adopting their culture/tradition so that you have earned the right to speak to them about God, is not only right and what we should be doing; it's what God did. He sent his Son to live alongside us; to see our suffering, our lives, experience our temptations, know what it was like to be hungry, poor, persecuted etc.
Paul said elsewhere that he became all things to all people - he started from where people were. If they worshipped many gods, (Athenians) he did not go in all guns blazing and rebuke them for breaking the 2nd commandment, he looked at all the images, found a shrine to an unknown god and started from there to preach the gospel. If he was talking to Jews he went to the synagogues, and no doubt introduced himself as Saul; if he was talking to gentiles he used the Greek form of his name, Paul.

All this is completely different from the teaching that believers have to be circumcised to be saved, which is what the Judaizers of Paul's day were saying. Of them he said "I wish they would go away and be castrated"!

I made no such claim. Why do you bring it up?

I never said that you did.
But part of the law given at Sinai was that they abstain from certain kinds of foods.
As a Pharisee, Paul would have believed, and taught, that - if people were going to keep God's law, then the food laws were part of that.
And yet, some years after meeting Christ, he wrote that food does not bring us closer to God. After the resurrection the disciples were told to go and make disciples and witness to Jesus; they were not told to keep, or teach, the Jewish food laws.
They preached the Gospel, not the law.

Yahshua obeyed YHWH's dietary laws. He called us to follow his example. I know of no other way.

Jesus was Jewish.
Calling us to live as he did does not mean following his culture, way of dress etc - otherwise we would have to be male, circumcised, speaking Aramaic, wearing robes and sandals before we were able to follow his example.

If you were brought up to follow Jewish food laws and believe that even though you now follow Christ, you still have to keep those laws; go for it.
I, and many others, were not brought up like that. We were taught that Jesus taught about God, showed what God is like by his miracles, healings and his perfect life lived in obedience to God - and that we are saved because he offered that perfect life as a sacrifice for us.
I know of no other way than to trust Jesus for salvation and follow his teachings. And he did not, ever, say "follow me but keep the Jewish law".

 

[Strong in Him]

Not all of the Hebrews at Sinai were of Jewish ancestry, nor even the descendants of Abraham; but the mixed multitude agreed to do all that YHWH commanded; as they entered covenant with him.

Yes, THEY - the ones who had been rescued from Egypt, seen his miracles and been protected and provided for in the wilderness, entered into covenant with him. A covenant that they broke repeatedly, by the way.

I have no Jewish heritage; none of my ancestors were rescued from Egypt.
But I HAVE been rescued from bondage, sin and death by Jesus. HE is my Saviour. The NEW Covenant was signed with his blood, I have come to him and received eternal life.

 

[Strong in Him]

Speak for yourself. I am not a duly appointed Judge of his Court.

I keep his law in that I wouldn't dare stone someone to death outside the letter of YHWH's law.

As I've said, his command to Moses was that anyone who worked on the Sabbath should be put to death, Exodus 35:2.

 

[Strong in Him]

How can you even say that with a straight face?!?!

When I said Jewish law, I was talking about circumcision, food laws, not wearing clothes with mixed fibres, not touching unclean people and all other laws mentioned in Exodus and Leviticus.
Jesus did not teach any of these. These things are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments.

 

[Strong in Him]

So He wrote the Torah and you say it is not truth? Was it all fake, a lie?

No - and I didn't even say that it was untrue.
I said that we, Christ's followers, did not come to faith through the law and have not been commanded to keep it.