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Featured Grafted In

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HARK!, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:40 PM.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Ex 12:49
    One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

    This what YHWH said about those who were grafted into Israel, right after he gave instructions for keeping Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    He was speaking to the Church.

    (CLV) Ex 12:47
    The whole congregation of the sons of Israel, they shall do it.

    However those who are not Grafted into Israel my not eat of it.

    (CLV) Ex 12:43
    Yahweh said to Moses and to Aaron: This is the statute of the passover: Any son of a foreigner, he shall not eat of it.

    He also told them all to keep the Sabbath.

    (CLV) Ex 16:29
    See! For Yahweh, He has given to you the sabbath; therefore He is giving to you on the sixth day bread for two days. Be seated, each man in his place; let no one go forth from his place on the seventh day..

    (CLV) Ex 20:10
    yet the seventh day is a sabbath to Yahweh your Elohim. You shall not do any work, you, your son or your daughter, your manservant or your maidservant, your bull, your donkey or your beast, or your sojourner who is within your gates.

    There were no exceptions for those who were grafted in.

    YHWH tells those who are grafted in, to keep the Feast of Weeks.

    (CLV) Dt 16:11
    You will rejoice before Yahweh your Elohim, you, your son and your daughter, your manservant and your maidservant, the Levite who is within your gates, the sojourner, the orphan and the widow who are among you, in the place where Yahweh your Elohim shall choose to tabernacle His Name.

    YHWH tells those who are grafted in to keep Yom Kippur forever.

    (CLV) Lv 16:29
    It will come to be for you as an eonian statute: In the seventh month on the tenth of the month you shall humble your souls, and no work at all shall you do, the native or the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

    YHWH tells those who are grafted in to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

    (CLV) Dt 16:14
    You will rejoice in your festival, you, your son and your daughter, your manservant and your maidservant, the Levite, the sojourner, the orphan and the widow who are within your gates.

    There is equal justice, and equal judgement for those who are grafted into Israel and for the native.

    (CLV) Lv 24:22
    The same judgment shall you come to have; for the sojourner as well as the native shall it be: for I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

    (CLV) Ex 12:49
    One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

    The same goes for the church for Temple worship. The law is the same for native Israel, and for those who are grafted in, forever.

    (CLV) Num 15:14
    In case a sojourner is sojourning with you or whoever is in your midst throughout your generations, and he offers a fire offering of fragrant odor to Yahweh, just as you are doing so shall he do.

    (CLV) Num 15:15
    As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

    (CLV) Num 15:16
    One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

    Paul emphsizes this point to those who were being newly grafted in.

    (CLV) Ro 10:12
    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same One is Lord of all, being rich for all who are invoking Him.

    (CLV) Ga 3:28
    in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

    All one in Yahshua.

    Ruth and Rahab were not only grafted into Israel; they are in the lineage of Yahshua.

    (CLV) Mt 1:5
    now Salmon begets Boaz of Rahab; now Boaz begets Obed of Ruth; now Obed begets Jesse;
     
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  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    You are drawing a long bow to suggest this was a requirement for the church.

    Personally I think you are entirely wrong.
     
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Ac 7:35
    "This Moses, whom they disown, saying, `Who constitutes you a chief and a justice over us?' this one has God commissioned to be a chief as well as a redeemer, a justice, with the hand of the messenger who was seen by him in the thorn bush.

    (CLV) Ac 7:36
    This man led them out, doing miracles and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

    (CLV) Ac 7:37
    This is the Moses who says to the sons of Israel: A Prophet will God be raising up to you from among your brethren, as me.

    (CLV) Ac 7:38
    This is he who came to be in the ecclesia in the wilderness with the messenger, who speaks to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who receives the living oracles to give to you,

    (CLV) Ac 7:39
    to whom our fathers are not willing to become obedient, but they thrust him away, and turned to Egypt in their hearts,
     
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    Exodus 12:
    43
    And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
    No foreigner shall eat it.
    44
    But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him,
    then he may eat it.
    A servant bought for money is not grafted into Israel, he is property. He can join the family
    and partake of the Passover after being circumcised.

    45 A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it.
    This will only go into effect after entering the Promised Land, as this is the only way one
    may be considered a sojourner.
    Strangers and sojourners may not eat of the passover. They are not grafted in.

    Numbers 15: Law concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices
    2
    Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them:
    When you have come into the land you are to inhabit, which I am giving to you,
    3 and you make an offering by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering or a sacrifice,
    to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering or in your appointed feasts...
    16 One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.
    Strangers living in Israel cannot partake of the passover, per Exodus 12:45,
    however, he may offer sacrifices to YHVH by the same Law as one of Israel.


    None of this has anything to do with being grafted in, which is a Talmudic term, and is never
    used in the Torah. Paul uses it in Romans 11 to describe gentiles becoming a part of
    spiritual
    Israel by Faith, using the analogy of the Olive Tree.
    Romans 11:
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy my flesh and save some of them. .
    17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree,
    were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness
    of the olive tree,
    19 You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.
    Do not be haughty, but fear.
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but
    toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
    karet-to be cut off from Israel, such as Korah, who took his whole family down with him.
    Hope this helps.
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This was already covered at the beginning of the OP.

    Perhaps these verses will help.


    (CLV) Ex 12:48
    In case a sojourner is sojourning with you, and he makes a passover to Yahweh, every male of his is to be circumcised, and then he may draw near to make it, and he will become as a native of the land. Yet anyone uncircumcised, he shall not eat of it.

    (CLV) Ex 12:49
    One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    You seem to be conflating the foreigner ( נכר nakar) with the sojourner ( גר ger). YHWH used two different words for a reason. If we conflate those words; YHWH seems to be giving us mixed messages. We know that this is not the case.
     
  7. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    No, you omitted vs. 44 and 45, I included them because the add clarity to the discussion, especially 45.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    There is a difference between a guest ( תושב toshab) and a sojourner ( גר ger). YHWH expresses the difference. If we conflate the two; it adds confusion to the discussion. It would seem that the translation that you are using is causing confusion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020 at 1:04 AM
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    Exodus 12:43. And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger [nakar] eat thereof:
    Exodus 12:44. But every man's servant [ebed] that is bought for money, when thou hast
    circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
    Exodus 12:45.
    A foreigner[towshab] and an hired servant[sakiyr] shall not eat thereof.
    Exodus 12:49. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger[ger] that
    sojourneth[guwr] among you.
    This is not conflating. a sojourner is a foreigner who has come to live permanently in Israel. Sojourn
    implies resident. He can participate in Passover having been circumcised.
    Exodus 12:48. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

    Again, this pertains to keeping Passover, as this is the topic of Exodus 12.
    Grafted in is never mentioned, so why are you applying that term to the Torah?
    The key point is clearly circumcision in the flesh. How is that being grafted in?
     
  10. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    A sojourner is a foreigner who is living in residence in Israel. That isn't complicated, or conflated.
     
  11. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Ger toshav
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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  13. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    This also has nothing to do with being grafted in, which is never mentioned in Acts. You can only
    connect grafting in mentioned in Romans 11 to the law of Moses via the Talmud. If anything is being
    conflated, it is circumcision of the flesh:
    Genesis 17:13. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
    And the circumcision of Christ in the spirit.
    Colossians 2:11
    . In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    Romans 2:
    28
    For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter.
    John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    ger tzedek refers to a "righteous convert", a proselyte to Judaism, and ger toshav, a non-Jewish inhabitant of the Land of Israel who observes the Seven Laws of Noah and has repudiated all links with idolatry.[10] In Modern Hebrew, the unqualified term ger means ger tzedek.[11]

    Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia
     
  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    The word ger comes from the Hebrew verb lagur (לגור) meaning "to reside" or "to sojourn [with]". In the Hebrew Bible ger is defined as a "foreigner", or "sojourner".[7] Rabbi Marc Angel writes:

    The Hebrew ger (in post-Biblical times translated as "proselyte") literally means "resident" and refers to a non-Israelite who lived among the Israelite community. When the Torah commands compassion and equal justice for the ger, it is referring to these "residents". Rabbinic tradition interpreted the word ger as referring to proselytes..."[8]

    As I said, residency is the qualifier.
     
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    See post 15
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    In case you missed it:

     
  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    post 15 is adding "convert" to foreigner ger toshav, and is much later to what Moses is writing in the Torah, i.e. you are bringing in Talmudic teaching, as I said would be necessary to connect Exodus 12
    to the title of your thread, Grafting In. Moses in not describing grafting in or conversion,
    he is stipulating who can participate in the Passover. You are conflating from there.
     
  19. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    Not in the Torah. If we are going to Wikipedia, or Talmud, I am out.
    I was just trying to clarify your exegesis from Exodus 12, by including a few
    more verses that were omitted in the post #1 brief. You suggested I was
    conflating, but now you have out conflated me.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    YHWH uses the words ger and toshab as two different sets of people, with two different sets of rules. The Talmud is supporting the Torah in this case. When we conflate the two words; not only does it contradict the teachings of the Talmud; it contradicts the word of YHWH; and puts the word of YHWH in contradiction to itself. YHWH's word does not contradict itself. It seem that those who wrote the Talmud got this part right.

    Moses didn't stipulate who could participate in Pesach. YHWH did.

    When he spoke to the mixed multitude and the rest of the assembly (church) at Sinai; those who entered covenant were joined to Israel as ger tzedek. They were grafted in as one, one law for all. They ate the Passover, in Egypt, before they reached Sinai.
     
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