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Grafted In

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HARK!, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Yahshua is the King of Israel. I am his citizen.
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Everyone who believes.

    (CLV) Jn 5:47
    Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"
     
  3. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    If obeying sabbath laws and feasts and dietary laws is what your conscience tells you to do (and what your conscience tells you is right for you to do because you are made holy by the Spirit of Christ), then do it.

    I love the meaning behind the Biblical moedim/appointed times too, and I know that Jesus and His apostles observed them, because they were all Jews, and the New Covenant, which God informed us in Jer 31:31-33 is not like the Covenant given through Moses (because it had been broken by the people), had not yet been established in the blood of Christ.

    I do not believe that anyone "ought" to observe any sabbaths, appointed times or dietary laws. I believe that the love of God and neighbor produced by Christ in His life, and produced by Christ in you will automatically inspire and cause you to love and treat your brethren and your neighbor the way Christ would, and I believe that all the law and the prophets are but a shadow of this.

    Nevertheless if you feel in your heart that part of loving God is to observe the sabbaths etc, then do so.
     
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  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    There is only one assembly. All are one in Yahshua.

    YHWH shows no partiality.
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Are you asserting that Christians aren't in the same assembly with Moses and Elijah before YHWH's throne?
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Jn 14:15
    If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

    (CLV) 1Jn 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


    (CLV) Dt 30:11
    For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.
     
  7. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Why not use a translation that makes sense? The CLV is a "one man band" that is out of step with the Word of God as is generally accepted by most of Christianity.

    John 14:15, “If you love me, you will obey my commandments"

    1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down"

    Deuteronomy 30:11, “This commandment I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it too remote."

    I would bet that the great majority of people on this forum think, speak, read, and write -- ready? -- conventional English. The Biblical texts were not written in some bizarre version of the languages, as is the case with Adolph Ernst Knoch's strange translation.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    One of the goals of this translation is to translate each Greek, or Hebrew word, the same way, each time, throughout the translation. Words have meaning, and I believe those who penned the scripture did their best to write down YHWH's intent. The version I downloaded free at scripture4all.com comes with some pretty nifty tools. I can look at the words in the original languages, in the original order, with Strong's numbers. Many translators get pretty creative with their translations; in order to reflect their personal doctrine. The CLV is a word for word translation. If you have any questions about a particular word; I'll try to help you.

    Now can we get back on topic? There are other forums to discuss translations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Messiah and his Apostles kept the Moedim.

    When the flood was coming; YHWH told Noah to build an ark; so that he, and those who were with him, would be saved. Do you think that if you were there with Noah; that you could have built your own ark, apart from the ark that YHWH instructed Noah to build, and still have been saved?

    Do you believe there was another way?

    Yahshua is the way. He calls us to follow his example of obedience to our loving Abba. Trust him.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Matthew 28: 19-20 CJB

    19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
    20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Neither did I.

    Straw man
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to navigation Jump to search
    This article is about the logical fallacy. For other uses, see Straw man (disambiguation).
    "Man of straw" redirects here. For the novel by Heinrich Mann, see Der Untertan.
    [​IMG]
    A straw man
    A straw man (sometimes written as strawman, also sometimes straw dog[1][2]) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.[3] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

    The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[4][5] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.
     
  12. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    So, since we have the Law, we don't need Jesus. Is that it?
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    The law (Torah) is the word of YHWH. In the beginning was the word. Yahshua's words are his father's words.

    This is what Yahshua told his detractors:

    (CLV) Jn 5:37
    And the Father Who sends Me, He has testified concerning Me. Neither have you ever heard His voice nor a perception of Him have you seen.

    (CLV) Jn 5:38
    And His word you do not have remaining in you, for that One Whom He commissions, this One you are not believing.

    (CLV) Jn 5:39
    "Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,

    (CLV) Jn 5:40
    and not willing are you to come to Me that you may have life.

    Yahshua was YHWH's word in the flesh.
     
  14. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    And the Scriptures I provided shouldn't be ignored either - Jesus healed, taught and spoke to Gentiles.
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I believe the word of God; I don't always accept your interpretation, taken always from the same Bible.
     
  16. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    "For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also." Heb 7:12

    "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
    not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;" Jer 31:31-32

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also." Heb 7:12

    "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another." John 13:34

    "No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

    "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
    For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
    Love works no ill to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8-10

    If the precepts given to Moses still apply, then we need to acknowledge a different High Priest.

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also." Heb 7:12

    However, if this is what you feel God wants you to do and you do this out of love for God and not fear of condemnation, then do so. BUT love your brothers enough not to demand that they "hear you" and do the same. Point them only to their Shepherd, not to the law.
     
  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Clearly there are many assemblies.

    The word Ecclesia means a gathering of those summoned.
    Clearly, any group of people can be called forth, or summoned, even Christians. This word has also come to mean the church - but it doesn't always mean that. Just as Jesus was a teacher, but we can't say that every time we see the word Teacher, it is speaking of Jesus.

    So the Hebrews who were a large group that had been summoned, called, out of Egypt by God could easily have been called an ecclesia.
    Luke clearly uses that word in Acts; Luke was Greek, wrote classical Greek and Ecclesia is a Greek word, so it makes sense that he would use that word. Like I said, just because a word is used of a person or group of people, it does not mean that every time the word is used it always refers to that same person or group of people.

    Sorry but the argument that the Christian church were in the wilderness with Moses just because the same word is used to describe both groups, is nonsense.
    And clearly a group of people that do not know, or reject, the Messiah cannot be in him and one with the people who confess Christ as Lord.
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    They were Jewish; I am not.

    If I had lived at that time and I was sinning greatly, I would have been outside the ark.
    If I had been a member of Noah's family I would have gone into the ark that Noah was commanded to build.
    What's that got to do with the topic?

    I know.

    And I try to - but he did not command me to keep the Jewish law.

    Are you implying that I don't?
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, and he did not command Gentiles to keep the law given to Moses and the Hebrews at Sinai.

    God rescued these people from Egypt; he was their Saviour.
    He led them, protected them, gave them his word at Sinai and they were his people. He made a covenant with them.
    They constantly broke that covenant and disobeyed his laws.
    Marriage is a covenant where 2 people make vows to each other. If one of those people is repeatedly unfaithful and breaks the vows that they made to be faithful; the covenant has been broken. The marriage won't necessarily be over, but one person will have broken their vows to the other and broken the covenant between them. Hosea wrote about this - the Lord was a faithful husband and Israel prostituted herself.
    Israel broke the covenant so often that they were sent away into exile and the lord said that he would make n new covenant. This was made through Jesus - who taught us many things, but never to keep the old covenant which the Israelites, God's people, had been incapable of keeping.

    They don't even keep it today, as they do not offer animal sacrifices.
    Whereas Jesus is our sacrifice for sin, offered once and for all time.
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    You said:
    It seemed to me that you were saying that when God taught about keeping the Passover he was talking to the church, as people who were "grafted in".
    And that anyone who was/is not grafted into Israel may not eat the Passover.

    The rest of that post suggested that God's people are the Jews and those who have been "grafted in" to Israel; anyone who hasn't been grafted in is not one of God's people.

    That's why I answered as I did; the NT says that those who believe in Christ and received his Spirit are God's people, John 1:12.

    If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologise.
    But making a mistake because you have misunderstood a post and deliberately creating a straw man argument, are 2 different things.
     
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