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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HARK!, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I don't need to.
    In the all the generations that I have traced it back, no one was Jewish.
    We were not brought up learning of our Jewish great grandfathers - we didn't have them. Nor were we taken to the synagogue, taught about all the Jewish feasts, traditions and promises given to those who are Jewish.

    Exactly.
    So HE is my Saviour; not Moses.
    My ancestors did not build tabernacles in the wilderness, not do my family remember this feast today; but Jesus was tabernacled among us.
    My ancestors did not celebrate Passover - when the angel of death passed over their houses that were protected by the lamb's blood - and they were saved from death. But I am protected from eternal death by the blood of the Lamb of God.

    Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Isaac and telling him "God, himself, will provide the sacrifice my son", was a foreshadowing of the time when God WOULD provide the sacrifice himself; his Son."
    Previously we read that God made Abraham a promise; that he, almost 100 with a 90 year old wife, would have a son. Abraham's believed God's words and was credited as righteous.
    Both of these things are foreshadowing the cross and justification by faith.

    The Gospel is proclaimed in the OT - many things were either foreshadowing future events or prophesying what was going to happen. Paul says that Jesus is a second Adam, Hebrews says that he is greater than Moses, Jesus gave the sign of Jonah for his resurrection. None of that means that we have to keep the Jewish law in order to live as, and become one of, God's people.
     
  2. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That's not an answer to the question.
    The 10 commandments don't mention homosexuality, but they teach marital faithfulness.
    Jesus talked about marriage between a man and a woman; he did not mention homosexuality at all.

    And you still haven't told me how you define "the law".
    I seem to remember from another post that you talked about believing EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God - yet when I mention laws found in Leviticus about stoning adulterers, not trimming beards, wearing clothes made from only one fabric etc, you switch tracks and talk about "God's pure Torah."

    Are all the laws in Leviticus, God's law? Yes or no? If no, which are and which aren't?
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Timothy was said to be Greek because of his father. Also, at that time, there was Hellenistic influence even over Jews. However, since Timothy had a Jewish mother, he would be considered a Jew, but he was likely uncircumcised at birth. So Paul was just following Torah...
     
  4. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Which is Torah. When He was tempted in the desert, He quoted Torah to Satan...
     
  5. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    That is not what it says...part because you are grafted into it
     
  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes.
    And I said that I didn't mean that Jesus never spoke about the OT, nor that he didn't ever refer to the law.

    When I said "Jesus didn't teach OT law", I meant that he never taught adherence to the laws written in Leviticus, nor observance of animal sacrifices, wearing clothes made from only one fabric et etc. He did not teach that these things, nor circumcision, were necessary for Gentile believers; abstaining from pork was not the way to salvation and was neither commendable nor damnable.
    He never said "it is God's will that you keep the law perfectly", he said "it is God's will that you come to me and have eternal life."
     
  7. Strong in Him

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    Yes, but the point of this was that I said that Paul taught the circumcision didn't save, didn't mean anything and that hoe who taught it - either as well as or instead of faith in Jesus should be castrated. And someone replied "tell that to Paul because he circumcised Timothy."

    My whole point was that Paul circumcised Timothy for a specific reason - so that he would be accepted when he preached the Gospel. That action was not about Paul saying "you know what; I think circumcision does save". We do not read of him circumcising any other new believers. He prayed for them to be filled with the Holy Spirit - he didn't circumcise them.
    The Council of Jerusalem makes it clear that they did not favour circumcision for new believers, and they certainly didn't preach it as part of the Gospel.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) 1Jn 2:1
    My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning.

    What is sin?

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:4
    Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.



    And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:2
    And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:3
    And in this we know that we know Him, if we should be keeping His precepts.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:4
    He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:5
    Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are IN Him:

    (CLV) Jn 14:15
    If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

    (CLV) Jn 14:21
    He who has My precepts and is keeping them, he it is who is loving Me. Now he who is loving Me will be loved by My Father, and I shall be loving him and shall be disclosing Myself to him."

    (CLV) Jn 14:23
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

    (CLV) Jn 14:24
    He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

    (CLV) Jn 15:10
    If ever you should be keeping My precepts, you will be remaining in My love, according as I have kept the precepts of My Father and am remaining in His love.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:4
    He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:5
    Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

    (CLV) 1Jn 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

    (CLV) 2Jn 1:6
    And this is love, that we may be walking according to His precepts. This is the precept, according as you hear from the beginning, that you may be walking in it;




    (CLV) 1Jn 2:6
    he who is saying that he is remaining IN Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

    (CLV) 1Jn 2:7
    Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.

    In the beginning was the word.
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    In case you didn't realize it, Taking YHWH's name in vain, and homosexuality, are both transgressions of YHWH's perfect Torah

    Not one jot will pass from YHWH's perfect Torah before heaven and earth pass.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    (CLV) Ro 2:25
    For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

    (CLV) Jn 14:24
    He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    You seem to be implying that Timothy didn't ask Paul to circumcise him, when Timothy was ready; just as Abraham came to faith first; then he sealed his obedience to YHWH's word, in faithfulness.

    (CLV) Ro 4:11
    And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

    1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    1 John 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
     
  12. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Because, as I have said, Jews would have known all of that since childhood. BTW, Yeshua's parents made sacrifices as did Paul and the other Apostles. Love God and your neighbor IS "OT" law...
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Circumcision saves? Answer me this...why did God bring in circumcision (Genesis 17)? All covenants are blood covenants. The new covenant is in blood also...
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I wasn't aware that Yahshua was speaking to large gatherings of people who didn't already know about those laws, and obey them.

    Can you show me that in scripture?

    Those are the easy ones. Loving your associate as Yahshua loved his disciples? (who all obeyed those laws by the way)

    Not so easy.
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Just in case you missed it; WHAT are his precepts?
    WHAT is the law?
    Are you talking about ALL the laws written in Exodus and Leviticus - assuming that they're not gender specific?

    Do "his precepts" include Leviticus 19:27, Leviticus 19:32?
    Do "his precepts" include animal sacrifices for sin, or after childbirth, Leviticus 12, so that the woman can be purified? If they do, how can you reconcile that with Jesus' sacrifice once for all for the sin of the world?

    Walking as Jesus walked does not mean becoming a Jew, speaking Aramaic or wearing robes and sandals - any more than "taking up your cross" means that you will be physically crucified one day.
     
  16. Strong in Him

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    Written to people who may have been wondering what point there was in being a Jew, or if they should repent of their Jewishness in light of the Gospel.
    It also says that unless they kept the entire law there was no merit in their being circumcised.

    Jesus' words were not "obey all the laws in Leviticus".

    "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised Christ will be of no value to you at all." Galatians 5:2

    "In Christ, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value." Galatians 5:4

    Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2; some men were teaching people that unless you were circumcised you cannot be saved. This brought Paul and Barnabas into dispute with them.
    Result? The letter that was written to Gentile believers said nothing about circumcision.

    The early church did not teach salvation by circumcision.
     
  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, the blood of Jesus.

    The NT clearly says that circumcision does not save - see my reply to Hark.
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    He was speaking to them, yes - but he also spoke to them about salvation and eternal life, and did not say that this was through the law.

    Can you show me where we are told that people are saved by keeping the law?
    If all Jesus came to do was to show people how to keep the law perfectly, why was he crucified?

    Only until they met Jesus - they didn't after the resurrection.
    They preached salvation through Christ; that Jesus, and not Caesar, was Lord. As Paul said, "If I am still preaching circumcision, why am I being persecuted?" Galatians 5:11.

    You think I should keep the law because it's "easier" than loving as God loves me?
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    We are not told that Timothy asked to be circumcised at all; Paul just did it.
    I don't know why you draw a parallel with Abraham coming to faith.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Red Moderator of the Year Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
    STRONGS NT 1785: ἐντολή
    ἐντολή, ἐντολῆς, ἡ (ἐντέλλω or ἐντέλλομαι, which see), from Pindar and Herodotus down; the Sept. often for מִצְוָה, in the Psalms the plural ἐντολαί also for פִּקְּוּדִים; an order, command, charge, precept;
    1. universally, a charge, injunction: Luke 15:29; ἐντολήν λαμβάνειν παρά τίνος, John 10:18; πρός τινα, Acts 17:15; λαβεῖν ἐντολάς περί τίνος, Colossians 4:10; that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office, ἐντολήν ἔχειν followed by infinitive, Hebrews 7:5; ἐντολήν διδόναι τίνι, John 14:31 L Tr WH; with τί εἴπῃ added, of Christ, whom God commanded what to teach to men, John 12:49; ἡ ἐντολή αὐτοῦ, of God, respecting the same thing, John 12:50.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
    STRONGS NT 3551: νόμος
    νόμος, νόμου, ὁ (νέμω to divide, distribute, apportion), in secular authors from Hesiod down, anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, usage, law; in the Sept. very often for תּורָה, also for חֻקָּה, דָּת, etc. In the N. T. a command, law; and
    1. of any law whatsoever: διά ποίου νόμου; Romans 3:27; νόμος δικαιοσύνης, a law or rule producing a state approved of God, i. e. by the observance of which we are approved of God, Romans 9:31, cf. Meyer (see Weiss edition), Fritzsche, Philippi at the passage; a precept or injunction: κατά νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης, Hebrews 7:16; plural of the things prescribed by the divine will, Hebrews 8:10;

    However if you study the concrete, as opposed to abstract, nature of the Ancient Hebrew language; you'll see that in concrete terms, it means direction, not unlike the path of an arrow, THE WAY ------->

    YHWH is the target; whereas sinning can be defined as "missing."

    So when we deviate from YHWH's direction; we lose our way, and miss the target.


    Those aren't my words. Those are Messiah's words; and as you should know, Messiah's words are YHWH's words.

    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

    (CLV) Mt 24:35
    Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by.

    (CLV) Ps 119:160
    The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian. (This means forever.)

    There will be sacrifices in the kingdom to come; when the Levitical Priesthood is reassembled.

    How did Paul reconcile that? Were Paul's sacrifices made by the High Priest himself? The High Priest made the sacrifice for sins that the people of Israel weren't even aware that they made, on Yom Kippur. If we study YHWH's Torah; it helps us to understand who and what Yahshua is and was. After all, the scripture speaks of him.

    Again there will be sacrifices in the kingdom to come. We can't make them according to the Torah, without the assembly of the Levitical Priesthood.

    If we are in Yahshua we are a new creature. We have died to self. We don't follow our lustful flesh. We are dead to this world; and reborn in him. Was there any sin in him? Has that changed?

    (CLV) Hb 10:26
    For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

    We walk in his truth. YHWH's word is the truth.

    You might want to think about that.

    There is no law that says you have to wear sandals. Come on!
     
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