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leecappella

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Why is it that when it comes to the homosexual issue, some can say, "Here is the bible, it says 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind', so that means it is wrong!" or, "In Genesis, it says God made them male and female, so that means heterosexual couples are the ony acceptable couple!", and based on these,they see themselves as justified and right in what they've just said? However, when the same premise is used in return, like, "In Genesis, it says to 'be fruitful and multiply', so that means every man/woman couple is expected to procreate and if they don't, they are disobeying God's Genesis command!" or, "Here is the bible, it says that women should be silent in the church!", and when this is said back to them, the response is one of not accepting what was just said to them, though they expect others to accept what was just said to them because it came from the bible, ironically, just like what was just said to them came from the bible?
 

Polycarp1

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Lee, many Christians make the distinction between elements of the Law, dividing it into the dietary law, the ceremonial law, and the moral law. The vision to Peter and Jesus's comments on what comes out of the body as opposed to what goes in supersede the dietary law, the self-sacrifice of Jesus fulfills and supersedes the ceremonial law, and Paul's comments on being free to follow Christ and love and not to sin validate the moral law.

There are two problems here: Nowhere in Scripture is that sort of trifold division overtly made, so that that conclusion may be drawn; and Paul's repeated statement is that we are free from the Law -- all the Law.

This must not be taken in an antinomian sense -- we are free to do whatever we like. We are free by virtue of the fulfillment of the Law in Him Whom we take as Savior and Lord, and are therefore under our own binding oaths (for which term, interestingly, the Latin word is "sacramentum") to do His Will.

If, then, it be presumed that He looks with disfavor on gay sex, that remains a valid stricture against those tempted to engage in it.

However, the presumption that He does look with disfavor on any gay sexual act under any circumstances is based on interpretive work on Paul's comments, the extent to which Leviticus remains important in the lives of Christians, and a few other exegetical procedures that can be questioned.

Personally, I see Paul condemning hedonism, whether straight, bi, or gay -- selfish gratification of sexual lust, in the same way as selfish gratification of the appetite for food is condemned. I think he no more conceived of a quasi-marital committed loving relationship between two men or women in love with and covenanting lifelong bonds with each other than he did of heart transplants. (I also see the Scriptures condemning violent forcible or coercive sex, whether straight or gay, and the vile industry of compulsive prostitution, including the pandering of boys, and of course idolatrous fertility rites.) Others regard what they see as the flat-out condemnation of any sex act between two men as the plain sense of Scripture.

But the bottom line to all of this is, what are we as Christians called to do as regards our gay brothers and sisters? And IMHO that is amply contained in Jesus's teachings on how to treat our fellow man, male or female, gay or straight, or any other dichotomy you care to name. Those who preach the condemnation of "sin" without a sense of the interior feelings and motives of the people whom they therefore condemn as sinners are evincing little of the love and compassion which Christ commands. I can only suppose that they conceive themselves to be without sin and therefore eligible to throw the first stone, or are not taking seriously Jesus's commands about the dangers of judging another.
 
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Mekkala

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leecappella said:
Why is it that when it comes to the homosexual issue, some can say, "Here is the bible, it says 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind', so that means it is wrong!" or, "In Genesis, it says God made them male and female, so that means heterosexual couples are the ony acceptable couple!", and based on these,they see themselves as justified and right in what they've just said? However, when the same premise is used in return, like, "In Genesis, it says to 'be fruitful and multiply', so that means every man/woman couple is expected to procreate and if they don't, they are disobeying God's Genesis command!" or, "Here is the bible, it says that women should be silent in the church!", and when this is said back to them, the response is one of not accepting what was just said to them, though they expect others to accept what was just said to them because it came from the bible, ironically, just like what was just said to them came from the bible?

Yeah... people like Fred Phelps, who take the few Bible passages that speak against homosexuality as the primary message in the Bible, but completely ignore such things as, "Love your neighbor as yourself," which is not exactly done by going to people's funerals to tell everyone the person is in Hell :rolleyes:
 
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leecappella

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polycarp1: Lee, many Christians make the distinction between elements of the Law, dividing it into the dietary law, the ceremonial law, and the moral law. The vision to Peter and Jesus's comments on what comes out of the body as opposed to what goes in supersede the dietary law, the self-sacrifice of Jesus fulfills and supersedes the ceremonial law, and Paul's comments on being free to follow Christ and love and not to sin validate the moral law.

me: I am familiar with this view. I disagree with it, but am familiar with it.

polycarp: There are two problems here: Nowhere in Scripture is that sort of trifold division overtly made, so that that conclusion may be drawn; and Paul's repeated statement is that we are free from the Law -- all the Law.

me: This is exactly why I don't agree with that view. Nowhere is the law referred to as laws (plural).

polycarp: Personally, I see Paul condemning hedonism, whether straight, bi, or gay -- selfish gratification of sexual lust, in the same way as selfish gratification of the appetite for food is condemned. I think he no more conceived of a quasi-marital committed loving relationship between two men or women in love with and covenanting lifelong bonds with each other than he did of heart transplants. (I also see the Scriptures condemning violent forcible or coercive sex, whether straight or gay, and the vile industry of compulsive prostitution, including the pandering of boys, and of course idolatrous fertility rites.) Others regard what they see as the flat-out condemnation of any sex act between two men as the plain sense of Scripture.

me: I'm in agreement here. Context I say:)

polycarp: But the bottom line to all of this is, what are we as Christians called to do as regards our gay brothers and sisters? And IMHO that is amply contained in Jesus's teachings on how to treat our fellow man, male or female, gay or straight, or any other dichotomy you care to name. Those who preach the condemnation of "sin" without a sense of the interior feelings and motives of the people whom they therefore condemn as sinners are evincing little of the love and compassion which Christ commands. I can only suppose that they conceive themselves to be without sin and therefore eligible to throw the first stone, or are not taking seriously Jesus's commands about the dangers of judging another.

me: Again, I agree.

 
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wryan

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Polycarp1 said:
Lee, many Christians make the distinction between elements of the Law, dividing it into the dietary law, the ceremonial law, and the moral law. The vision to Peter and Jesus's comments on what comes out of the body as opposed to what goes in supersede the dietary law, the self-sacrifice of Jesus fulfills and supersedes the ceremonial law, and Paul's comments on being free to follow Christ and love and not to sin validate the moral law.

There are two problems here: Nowhere in Scripture is that sort of trifold division overtly made, so that that conclusion may be drawn; and Paul's repeated statement is that we are free from the Law -- all the Law.

This must not be taken in an antinomian sense -- we are free to do whatever we like. We are free by virtue of the fulfillment of the Law in Him Whom we take as Savior and Lord, and are therefore under our own binding oaths (for which term, interestingly, the Latin word is "sacramentum") to do His Will.

If, then, it be presumed that He looks with disfavor on gay sex, that remains a valid stricture against those tempted to engage in it.

However, the presumption that He does look with disfavor on any gay sexual act under any circumstances is based on interpretive work on Paul's comments, the extent to which Leviticus remains important in the lives of Christians, and a few other exegetical procedures that can be questioned.

Personally, I see Paul condemning hedonism, whether straight, bi, or gay -- selfish gratification of sexual lust, in the same way as selfish gratification of the appetite for food is condemned. I think he no more conceived of a quasi-marital committed loving relationship between two men or women in love with and covenanting lifelong bonds with each other than he did of heart transplants. (I also see the Scriptures condemning violent forcible or coercive sex, whether straight or gay, and the vile industry of compulsive prostitution, including the pandering of boys, and of course idolatrous fertility rites.) Others regard what they see as the flat-out condemnation of any sex act between two men as the plain sense of Scripture.

But the bottom line to all of this is, what are we as Christians called to do as regards our gay brothers and sisters? And IMHO that is amply contained in Jesus's teachings on how to treat our fellow man, male or female, gay or straight, or any other dichotomy you care to name. Those who preach the condemnation of "sin" without a sense of the interior feelings and motives of the people whom they therefore condemn as sinners are evincing little of the love and compassion which Christ commands. I can only suppose that they conceive themselves to be without sin and therefore eligible to throw the first stone, or are not taking seriously Jesus's commands about the dangers of judging another.
Very well said Polycarp1, especially your last paragraph. We're told not to judge others, but some would say that we should judge the sin or act itself, but not the person. Even if this were true I think it's important to look at our own motivations for making judgement. Are we judging out of love(concern for someone's well being), or are we judging out of anger or to place ourselves on a pedastal(thus negating our own guilt)? It seems like the more someone strives to obey the letter of the law, the more they seem to lose the spirit of it, but that's just my opinion. Bill
 
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