Good Friday, a doctrine of men?

[Ken Rank]

No, it is not.

Well, if you think that three days AND NIGHTS means three consecutive daytime hours... you are welcome to believe that. I don't and I won't... it makes no sense to say "and nights" and not include the nights.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[prodromos]

Well, if you think that three days AND NIGHTS means three consecutive daytime hours... you are welcome to believe that. I don't and I won't... it makes no sense to say "and nights" and not include the nights.

Be blessed.
Ken

A day and a night is the whole of the synecdoche, being 24 hours. It can refer to any part of the 24 hour period.

 

[rstrats]

prodromos,
re: "Days and nights is the idiom. You will find it repeated many times in Scripture."

So you're saying that the Messiah was using common idiomatic language of the time. Can you provide any examples from that period to support that idea?

 

[Ken Rank]

A day and a night is the whole of the synecdoche, being 24 hours. It can refer to any part of the 24 hour period.

That is where, historically, you have it backwards. First of all, those in the ancient near east didn't break things up into divisions as we do. A foot wasn't 12", it was the length of a man's foot and that size varied... as did a cubit. A day (yom in Hebrew) can mean many things but in context here, not so much 24 exact hours or 1440 hours, but the day time hours and the night time hours. When one wanted to refer to any part of the day or night... any part of what we now call "24 hours," you say "day"... "three days" can be any part of 3 days or nights. But when you include the word "night" (as in "three days and nights") then the "and" plays a key role here. And it is specifically 3 days >>AND<< 3 nights. Therefore, you are referring to any part of 3 days AND 3 nights.

Friday to Sunday works fine because those are three days (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday) if he had said, "3 days." Which he DOES when speaking about the Temple (his body). But when he brought in the idea of "and nights" that meant all or part of 3 consecutive days and nights are included.

When he was speaking in general.... he used the idiom, "3 days." But when they asked for a SIGN he got specific, for there would be only one sign.

3 days = any part of 3 consecutive 24 hour period. 3 days AND nights includes parts of nights or they wouldn't add the "and nights."

 

[Ken Rank]

prodromos,
re: "Days and nights is the idiom. You will find it repeated many times in Scripture."

So you're saying that the Messiah was using common idiomatic language of the time. Can you provide any examples from that period to support that idea?

1 Sam 30:12 And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs and two clusters of raisins. So when he had eaten, his strength came back to him; for he had eaten no bread nor drunk water for three days and three nights.
1 Sam 30:13 Then David said to him, "To whom do you belong, and where are you from?" And he said, "I am a young man from Egypt, servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind, because three days ago I fell sick.

 

[Ken Rank]

A day and a night is the whole of the synecdoche, being 24 hours. It can refer to any part of the 24 hour period.

I will say this... it is not an easy task to 'prove' my point. I can share some historical quotes but not enough that I would even attempt to make the point if we were in a court of some kind. To make matters worse, I was skimming through Lightfoot's commentary (He was a Christian with Jewish heritage in the 18th century who spent a great deal of time comparing the gospels to the Talmud, Tosefta, and other early Jewish writings) sure I would find something to back up my point, and he took a Friday position as well. So, I will do just that, back off. When and if I can find some time period usage I will share it. Blessings.

 

[prodromos]

1 Sam 30:12 And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs and two clusters of raisins. So when he had eaten, his strength came back to him; for he had eaten no bread nor drunk water for three days and three nights.
1 Sam 30:13 Then David said to him, "To whom do you belong, and where are you from?" And he said, "I am a young man from Egypt, servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind, because three days ago I fell sick.

In this example, remember that the counting of days was inclusive. In our culture we would interpret the statement in vs. 13 being made on the 4th day. Not so in semitic culture.

 

[rstrats]

Ken Rank,

You quoted my question to prodromos and then referenced 1 Sam 30:12 and 13. I'm afraid I don't see your point with regard to my question.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken Rank,

You quoted my question to prodromos and then referenced 1 Sam 30:12 and 13. I'm afraid I don't see your point with regard to my question.

In talking to prodromos, you asked, "So you're saying that the Messiah was using common idiomatic language of the time. Can you provide any examples from that period to support that idea?"

I was simply showing how one verse says three days and nights while the very next verse says "three days." I am gathering examples from the Tanach (OT) as well as other early ancient near east writings showing how "three days" is idiomatic and can mean anything from "the day after tomorrow" to "three days and nights," but when "three days and nights" is used, one must also count the nights.

 

[rstrats]

Ken Rank'
re: "... but when "three days and nights' is used, one must also count the nights."


But I'm looking for examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

 

[buzuxi02]

It does not say that at all. It says HE will not. Nor will HE drink of the cup. If that were true, why then did John, Polycarp and the rest of the eastern churches keep Nisan 14?

This is my precise point. The Asia Minor churches which held the gospel of John in high esteem kept Nisan 14. As did sects like the Audianis. On the other hand an explanation was required as to why those that hold onto the alternative date (first Sunday after Nissan 14)why they fast through the Jewish passover.
I gave the scripture in the Synoptic's which agrees with John''s assertion that Christ was crucified before the eating of the passover as one piece of evidence (which has yet to be refuted).
The fact that in pre-70AD the passover supper would have included the entire family as each family would present a lamb to be killed. Jesus mother and brothers were present at the Wedding feast at Cana and were also present at Pentecost, but here is a Passover meal that only includes the twelve excluding all family. The fact that absolutely no lamb is either mentioned, or symbolically interpreted. That even Paul calls Jesus, 'our paschal lamb". And further says this is 'our feast'.
Rabbis and Jewish scholars looking over the last supper texts find it surprising that the verses seem to imply that this was Jesus "own" passover, as something exclusive for the inner circle of disciples. "Our" passover is how it's viewed. I believe it was a traditional berekoth meal which Jesus instituted a mystical element (ritualistic meals was a practise by the Essenes as well). My opinion is the original Jewish Christians also believed it was a berekoth judging from Acts 2:42-46

 

[rstrats]

prodromos,

You have a question directed to you in post #143.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

This is my precise point. The Asia Minor churches which held the gospel of John in high esteem kept Nisan 14. As did sects like the Audianis. On the other hand an explanation was required as to why those that hold onto the alternative date (first Sunday after Nissan 14)why they fast through the Jewish passover.
I gave the scripture in the Synoptic's which agrees with John''s assertion that Christ was crucified before the eating of the passover as one piece of evidence (which has yet to be refuted).
The fact that in pre-70AD the passover supper would have included the entire family as each family would present a lamb to be killed. Jesus mother and brothers were present at the Wedding feast at Cana and were also present at Pentecost, but here is a Passover meal that only includes the twelve excluding all family. The fact that absolutely no lamb is either mentioned, or symbolically interpreted. That even Paul calls Jesus, 'our paschal lamb". And further says this is 'our feast'.
Rabbis and Jewish scholars looking over the last supper texts find it surprising that the verses seem to imply that this was Jesus "own" passover, as something exclusive for the inner circle of disciples. "Our" passover is how it's viewed. I believe it was a traditional berekoth meal which Jesus instituted a mystical element (ritualistic meals was a practise by the Essenes as well). My opinion is the original Jewish Christians also believed it was a berekoth judging from Acts 2:42-46

The only problem is that it DID have elements of a Passover seder and it was held on the 13th AFTER sundown (which was actually the beginning of the 14th). Of course there would not have been any lamb present because it had not been killed yet. lamb was not needed because Yeshua was to be that lamb. I believe John kept the 14th because Yeshua told them to as a yearly memorial to Him and His death. I am sure Pascha (on Yom HaBikkurim) would have been added in addition to keeping Passover on the 14th not too long afterwards. yes, the Passover on the 14th was not the problem, fasting after Pascha would be if it during ULB.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You can do a simple google search for Nisan 14 30 ad and see Nisan 14 began at sundown Wed Christ dies at 30 on Thurs (still Nisan 14)

Jesus was born during the time Herod the Great was a live, Herod the Great died in 4 BC, that means Jesus was born before 4 BC. We don't know how old Jesus was when He died, He began His ministry when He was "about 30" (says Luke) but "about 30" could mean He was 29 or 31 for example; we also don't know how long His earthly ministry lasted, it was at least three years; but it could have been longer (Scripture doesn't say, that John's Gospel mentions three Passovers doesn't mean those were the only Passovers that occurred during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry).

So latching onto AD 30 is entirely arbitrary here. The exact year of Jesus' birth is unknown. The exact year of Jesus' death is unknown. A time frame of about 6-4 BC for His birth, and late 20's/early 30's AD for His death are about as close as we get.

What is clear is that on the first day of the week Jesus has risen from the dead and while on the road to Emmaus Jesus, incognito, starts walking with some of His followers and we read that "it is the third day since these things (Jesus' death)" That gives us this: Jesus was crucified on the sixth day of the week, Jesus was in the grave on the seventh day, and Jesus rose on the first day.

If that's a problem because it doesn't fit what one wants "three days and three nights" to mean (and the point here is the analogy with Jonah being in the fish, that's the point) then we have roughly two choices:

1) The first choice is that the Bible is straight up wrong and Jesus was in the grave longer than the three days recorded in the Gospel texts.

2) The second choice is that the Bible is right, that Jesus was crucified on Friday, and raised on Sunday; and trying to contort "three days and three nights" to mean something other is wrong.

Me, I go with the second choice. Jesus died on the sixth day of the week, what we call Friday in English; and He was raised on the first day of the week, what we call Sunday in English. As the Gospels themselves say, and as the Church has always understood and believed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Adstar]

I welcome any scripture that speaks of good Friday.

On this day 1987 years ago: Jesus rose from the grave

Spring Feasts:

Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost

Jesus died on Passover, was buried on Unleavened Bread & rose on Firstfruits.

2017: Thurs 4/6/17 (Nisan 10) the Passover Lamb would be chosen (Ex 12). Mon 4/10/17 is Nisan 14 lamb would be killed (Lev 23:5).

FIRSTFRUITS: RESURRECTION DAY!

It was on Firstfruits that Christ rose from the grave. Resurrection day this year begins at sundown Thurs April 13, 2017 & ends Fri at sundown. Any day is a great day to celebrate Christ Resurrection. Today is this years actual corresponding day.

When the Temple stood this day marked the official commencement of the grain (main/largest) harvest (Deut 16:7)

The firstfruits/sheaf of the barley harvest was brought to the Temple as a wave offering (Leviticus 23:9-14).

The waving of the sheaf/firstfruits, was a dedication before God and sanctified the whole harvest field.

Jesus is the Firstfruits to Resurrect from the grave. Recorded in Matt 27: Christ brings a wave offering before God with Him:

Matthew 27:51-53
51 Jesus dies; and behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. (OLD COVENANT ENDS RIGHT HERE!)

52 ""The tombs also were opened"". ""And many bodies of the saints who had died were raised"",

53 ""and coming out of the tombs"" ""after his resurrection"" ""they went into the holy city and appeared to many""

Paul also ties the Feast of Firstfruits together by linking Christ's Resurrection to it, Here:

1 Corinthians 15:
20 ""But now Christ is risen from the dead"", ""and has become the firstfruits"" ""of those who have died"".

21 For since by one man (Adam) came death, by one Man (Jesus Christ) also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall (Believers) be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming

Yes Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who where ignorant of the fesivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calander..

Jesus was executed on a wednesday afternoon and was buried just before sundown on the day of passover.. He rose again at the start of the first day of the week On sundown saturday.. He did Spend 3 days and 3 nights in the earth as was prophecised, to the glory of God..

 

[prodromos]

Yes Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who where ignorant of the fesivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calander..

This is the first time I've heard someone suggest that the Apostles were ignorant of the festivals and holy days of convocation in the Hebrew calender. What next, I wonder?

 

[Adstar]

This is the first time I've heard someone suggest that the Apostles were ignorant of the festivals and holy days of convocation in the Hebrew calender. What next, I wonder?

I never said the Apostles where ignorant of the festivals and Holy Days of convocation.. So you have lied openly in this forum stating that i have said something that anyone who can simply go baclk to my post can see clearly that i have never even mentioned the Apostles in it..

I don't put up with liars putting words into my mouth that i have never said and i don't think the moderators in this forum should put up with it either..

Quote of my Post::: """""
Yes Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who where ignorant of the fesivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calander..

Jesus was executed on a wednesday afternoon and was buried just before sundown on the day of passover.. He rose again at the start of the first day of the week On sundown saturday.. He did Spend 3 days and 3 nights in the earth as was prophecised, to the glory of God..""""""

So if anyone can read the word Apostle in my quoted post and point it out for me then i will gladly apologise to prodromos and delete this post...

 

[ViaCrucis]

I never said the Apostles where ignorant of the festivals and Holy Days of convocation.. So you have lied openly in this forum stating that i have said something that anyone who can simply go baclk to my post can see clearly that i have never even mentioned the Apostles in it..

I don't put up with liars putting words into my mouth that i have never said and i don't think the moderators in this forum should put up with it either..

Quote of my Post::: """""
Yes Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who where ignorant of the fesivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calander..

Jesus was executed on a wednesday afternoon and was buried just before sundown on the day of passover.. He rose again at the start of the first day of the week On sundown saturday.. He did Spend 3 days and 3 nights in the earth as was prophecised, to the glory of God..""""""

So if anyone can read the word Apostle in my quoted post and point it out for me then i will gladly apologise to prodromos and delete this post...

It's the Apostles and Evangelists who say that Jesus was crucified on Friday and raised on Sunday. So if "Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who were ignorant of the festivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calendar" then the "men" in question are the Apostles and Evangelists themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Adstar]

It's the Apostles and Evangelists who say that Jesus was crucified on Friday and raised on Sunday. So if "Good friday is a doctrine that came from the thinking of men who were ignorant of the festivals and holy days of convocation of the Hebrew calendar" then the "men" in question are the Apostles and Evangelists themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

No the Apostles never said Jesus was raised on Sunday.. It says he was raised at the start of the first day of the week.. The Biblical day starts at sundown.. Not sunrise.. Therefore the start of the first day of the week is saturday sundown..

 

[prodromos]

I never said the Apostles where ignorant of the festivals and Holy Days of convocation.. So you have lied openly in this forum stating that i have said something that anyone who can simply go baclk to my post can see

It is a doctrine which can be traced back to people who were taught by the Apostles. The only divergence in this teaching was when to celebrate it. Those taught by the Apostle John celebrated it on 3 days of the Jewish feast of Passover regardless of what day of the week it started each year, whereas the rest of the Church settled on always celebrating on the three days Friday, Saturday and Sunday near the Passover. Regardless of when they celebrated it, they all agreed that Christ was crucified and died on Friday, lay in the tomb for the Sabbath, and rose from the dead early on the Sunday. This was taught in every Church regardles of which of the Apostles established the Church and regardless of location. There is such uniformity of belief that it is only possible if they were all taught the same thing by the Apostles. Thus, when you made your statement above, it could only be referring to the Apostles.