Good Friday, a doctrine of men?

[dqhall]

Christ said "three days and three nights" which we recognise as synecdoche, given that He also said He would rise "on the third day"

Now we're back to inclusive counting. You know all this as it has been explained time and again, so why do you continue to play these games?

The Synoptic Gospels seemed to indicate Jesus' last supper was a Passover meal, but this could not be as it was illegal to work on the day of Passover that began at sundown. The arrest, trial and crucifixion had to be on the day before Passover when work was allowed, for no work was allowed on the Passover. As for three days, it could have been three days same as happening over three consecutive days that were not entire days. There may have been some distortions as Greeks who were not Jews were doing the copying of manuscripts.

I like the description of the last supper in the Gospel of John better than the Synoptic Gospels. Either Matthew or Mark may have been the first Gospels. According to Eusebius, Mark was an interpreter for Peter. Luke seemed to be copying Mark for part of his manuscript, but somehow a number of passages were omitted. It is called the "Luke's great omission."

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Synoptic Gospels seemed to indicate Jesus' last supper was a Passover meal, but this could not be as it was illegal to work on the day of Passover that began at sundown. The arrest, trial and crucifixion had to be on the day before Passover when work was allowed, for no work was allowed on the Passover. As for three days, it could have been three days same as happening over three consecutive days that were not entire days. There may have been some distortions as Greeks who were not Jews were doing the copying of manuscripts.

The Last Supper was exactly that...Seudah HaMafseket. Yeshua was arrested shortly thereafter and kept the Ta'anit Bekhorim (fast of the firstborn) as he was judged, hung on the cross and buried (from sunrise to sunset) on the 14th.

 

[prodromos]

There may have been some distortions as Greeks who were not Jews were doing the copying of manuscripts.

The manuscript evidence actually demonstrates very few differences, plus the DSS have shown there was more than one version of the Hebrew Old Testament.

 

[dqhall]

The manuscript evidence actually demonstrates very few differences, plus the DSS have shown there was more than one version of the Hebrew Old Testament.

After the DSS were translated it was seen that both the Greek Old Testament that was copied from the Septuagint and the Hebrew Bible/Moscow Codex had deviated from the earlier DSS found at Qumran. The Hebrew Old Testament had deviated from the Dead Sea Scrolls more than the Greek Old Testament deviated from the Dead Sea Scrolls (Hershel Shanks lecture).

The oldest copies of the New Testament were the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus. The Codex Sinaiticus did not have the passage from the Gospel of John where the angel stirs up the pool of Bethsaida and whoever steps in first gets healed. We do not have complete Gospels extant from before the fourth century. These early versions had to be copies of copies as parchment is tanned animal skin that does not last hundreds of years under normal circumstances.

 

[prodromos]

The oldest copies of the New Testament were the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus. The Codex Sinaiticus did not have the passage from the Gospel of John where the angel stirs up the pool of Bethsaida and whoever steps in first gets healed. We do not have complete Gospels extant from before the fourth century. These early versions had to be copies of copies as parchment is tanned animal skin that does not last hundreds of years under normal circumstances.

This does not fall into a category of 'distortions' as you earlier suggested

 

[dqhall]

This does not fall into a category of 'distortions' as you earlier suggested

There was a recent post about Jesus being dead three days and three nights, yet according to other context it could only have been part of three days and two nights, that is one example of distortion. The Synoptic Gospels stating the last supper was a Passover meal is another distortion. You might turn a blind eye to such things, but others can not.

 

[prodromos]

There was a recent post about Jesus being dead three days and three nights, yet according to other context it could only have been part of three days and two nights, that is one example of distortion. The Synoptic Gospels stating the last supper was a Passover meal is another distortion. You might turn a blind eye to such things, but others can not.

There is no distortion. "On the third day", "after three days", "in three days" and "three days and three nights" are all equvalent statements in Hebrew (and Greek) culture.

 

[dqhall]

There is no distortion. "On the third day", "after three days", "in three days" and "three days and three nights" are all equvalent statements in Hebrew (and Greek) culture.

I was reading the Bible once and read, Matthew 23:24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel!

I thought, "What could this mean?" I was answered, "It should be, who strain out a gnat and swallow like a camel."

Two days + three nights does not equal three days + three nights. It was like the Pope calling Galileo a heretic for saying the earth revolved around the sun.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There was a recent post about Jesus being dead three days and three nights, yet according to other context it could only have been part of three days and two nights, that is one example of distortion. The Synoptic Gospels stating the last supper was a Passover meal is another distortion. You might turn a blind eye to such things, but others can not.

They are not distortions in Scripture, they are distortions in understanding which many here have demonstrated.

 

[prodromos]

I was reading the Bible once and read, Matthew 23:24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel!

I thought, "What could this mean?" I was answered, "It should be, who strain out a gnat and swallow like a camel."

Your 'helpful' voice has just destroyed some perfectly clear use of hyperbole, no different to matthew 7:3-5. If you don't understand Scripture, I recommend in future you ask members of your parish who are more mature in the faith rather than listen to voices. Just out of interest, have you made any attempt to confirm the 'knowledge' your voice gave you? How have you tested the spirit which 'informed' you?

Two days + three nights does not equal three days + three nights.

You don't recognise figures of speech. That much has been determined.

 

[rstrats]

Prodromos,
re: "Christ said 'three days and three nights' which we recognise as synecdoche..."

And I agree; parts of calendar days were indeed involved. But no part of a 3rd night is involved with the notion of a Friday crucifixion.



re: "...given that He also said He would rise 'on the third day'"

Which has to mean "on the third day" after His death in order to agree with His prophecies in Matthew 12:40 and Mark 8:31.



re: "...why do you continue..."

Because you haven't shown any scripture that proves that the Messiah couldn't have meant it when He said that He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth or that He couldn't have meant it when He said that He would rise after 3 days.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Because you haven't shown any scripture that proves that the Messiah couldn't have meant it when He said that He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth or that He couldn't have meant it when He said that He would rise after 3 days.

...and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

...and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

...and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.

"The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day."

...and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

 

[prodromos]

Because you haven't shown any scripture that proves that the Messiah couldn't have meant it when He said that He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth or that He couldn't have meant it when He said that He would rise after 3 days.

You misrepresent what Christ said. He didn't say He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth, He said He would spend 3 days and 3 nights. This is the figure of speech known as synecdoche, where the whole, "day and night" represents the part.

 

[rstrats]

prodromos,
re: "You misrepresent what Christ said. He didn't say He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth..."

I did not misrepresent what the Messiah said. He specifically said that He would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth. He also specifically said that He would spend 3 days [3 light periods] in the heart of the earth. What scripture do you have that proves that He didn't mean what He said, i.e., that 3 actual night times would be involved?

re: "...He said He would spend 3 days and 3 nights. This is the figure of speech known as synecdoche, where the whole, 'day and night' represents the part."

How do you know that the Messiah was employing a synecdoche? Again, what scripture do you have that proves that He couldn't have meant that at least a part of each one of 3 night times would be involved with His time in the heart of the earth?

 

[rstrats]

Yeshua HaDerekh,
re: "From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day."

Which has to mean "on the third day" after His death in order to agree with His prophecies in Matthew 12:40 and Mark 8:31.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yeshua HaDerekh,
re: "From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day."

Which has to mean "on the third day" after His death in order to agree with His prophecies in Matthew 12:40 and Mark 8:31.

You are fixated on the 3 days and 3 nights (however, for all of you that have to prove this for some reason, you would have to have 3 nights and 3 days. Either way you cant get there from here. You would HAVE to not count part of days, etc.). He ALSO said "in 3 days", "ON the 3rd day", "after 3 days". I have explained this multiple times here in the past. Either way, the sign was not that a dead man would be dead for 3 days/nights, but would be raised on that 3rd day. He was relating it to the STORY of Yonah. He said an evil generation seeks a sign and none will be given other than like Yonah. He never finished it because they should have been able to figure it out...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

How do you know that the Messiah was employing a synecdoche?

How do you know He wasn't? He also said He would rise ON the 3rd day. Remember, He never said "in 3 nights and 3 days"...

 

[rstrats]

Yeshua HaDerekh,
re: "How do you know He wasn't?"

I don't, but based on the fact that scripture has the Messiah saying that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights and that He would rise after 3 days, I have no reason for thinking that He didn't mean exactly what He said. What scriptural reason do you have for needing to think that He didn't mean that 3 actual night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth"?



re: "He also said He would rise ON the 3rd day."

And again, He had to mean "on the third day" after His death in order to agree with His prophecies in Matthew 12:40 and Mark 8:31.



re: "Remember, He never said 'in 3 nights and 3 days..."

I don't see your point. Please explain.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

re: "Remember, He never said 'in 3 nights and 3 days..."

I don't see your point. Please explain.

How are you getting 3 days and 3 nights...exactly

 

[rstrats]

Yeshua HaDerekh,
re: "How are you getting 3 days and 3 nights...exactly"



I'm not, if by "exactly" you mean 72 hours. What makes you think that I am?

BTW, you have 2 questions directed to you in post #198.