GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[Bob S]

What would be the point of Paul saying the following if as so many assert that the Law (Ten Commandments) was abolished,

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

First of all the "law" was 613 laws not 10. Do you not give Jesus credit for His blood that covers our sins? Jesus fulfilled the laws of the Sinai covenant. That is what He came to accomplish. He did what no man could accomplish and now His blood covers all past, present and future sins. We are righteous before the Father.

Ritual laws of the Sinai covenant ended at Calvary. All laws concerning morality are forever.

Note: the old covenant laws found in the book of the law had many laws dealing with morality.

 

[klutedavid]

First of all the "law" was 613 laws not 10. Do you not give Jesus credit for His blood that covers our sins? Jesus fulfilled the laws of the Sinai covenant. That is what He came to accomplish. He did what no man could accomplish and now His blood covers all past, present and future sins. We are righteous before the Father.

Ritual laws of the Sinai covenant ended at Calvary. All laws concerning morality are forever.

Note: the old covenant laws found in the book of the law had many laws dealing with morality.

Here are some moral laws in the law that these folk like to rename as ceremonial laws.

Exodus 22:22
You shall not afflict any widow or orphan.

Leviticus 19:29
Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.

Leviticus 19:31
Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them.

Leviticus 19:33
When a foreigner resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.

Leviticus 19:35
You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.

These are clearly moral laws and some are more powerful laws than coveting an oxen.

 

[BobRyan]

Love is written on our hearts as the two commandments in 1 John testify to.

God is love.

John does not quote "Love God with all your heart"...
not in 1 John ,
not in 2 John
not in 3 John
not in the Gospel of John
and not in the book of Revelation.

John never proposed that we delete all of scripture "except for the writing of John"

In Matt 22 Jesus said all of scripture -- all of God's Word is based on ... firmly established on these two commands from the Mosaic Law -- (and the Jews agreed with him)

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

John gave you the Lord's commandments.

without telling us that all of scripture has been deleted as soon as one command has been quoted

Then you quote the following commandment from the law which is not one of the ten commandments.
Matthew 22:39
The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Leviticus 19:18
'Love your neighbor as yourself'

As if you are somehow under the law.

New Covenant "Law of God written on the heart and mind" -- Jer 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-12

Matt 22
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment.
(from Deut 6:5)

39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Lev 19:18)
40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

You have the wrong commandments.

That was Christ speaking in Matt 22 - take it up with Him - your argument is "with the text"

Paul in Romans 13 reminds us that it is the name commandments Christ lists in Matthew 19.

I am going to stay with the Bible on this one.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

Here are some moral laws in the law that these folk like to rename as ceremonial laws.

Exodus 22:22
You shall not afflict any widow or orphan.

Leviticus 19:29
Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.

Leviticus 19:31
Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them.

Leviticus 19:33
When a foreigner resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.

Leviticus 19:35
You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.

These are clearly moral laws and some are more powerful laws than coveting an oxen.

Don't be ridiculous. No one believes these are ceremonial laws. And any law that is not ceremonial can be implied by the Ten Commandments or the two great laws upon which all law is founded. Is there no limit to the mental gymnastics to which people will resort to hate on the moral law given at Sinai?

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

Do you not give Jesus credit for His blood that covers our sins?

Would anyone admit to this charge even if they believed it? Behold, the diversionary rhetoric is not convincing anyone. The ones who come to your aid already believe what you claim.

Believing that Christians should, by the grace of God, keep the ten commandments to the best of their God-given ability does not equate to rejecting Christ's substitutionary atonement, no matter how hard you work to conflate the two.

Scripture simply does not teach a lawless covenant, even if people choose to do so.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 NIV

Last I checked, heaven and earth had not disappeared, nor has everything been accomplished.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

That is a moral law and not a ceremonial law.

Proponents of antinomianism can't seem to agree on whether the ceremonial and moral laws are separate or not. Fascinating.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

how would you reconcile that any of them were referring to the old covenant for Israel only ten commandments?

It's very simple.

The ten commandments are simply the ten commandments.

The "old covenant for Israel only" slogan derived from your private interpretation of 2 Corinthians, Ch. 3 and John Ch. 15, and one or two other sparse, selective passages is just plain ol' irrelevant.

There is nothing that points to 1 John 3:23 as being the definitive statement of man's duty toward God, except the opinions of man. Nothing.

There is however such a statement in the Bible and it is found in Ecclesiastes 12:13:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[klutedavid]

Don't be ridiculous. No one believes these are ceremonial laws.

Are you sure that no one believes that the moral laws, such as afflicting widows and orphans, is a ceremonial law.

Only the ten commandments were inside the ark of the covenant.

Seventh Day Adventist

28 Fundamental Beliefs

The Law of God
The great principles of God’s law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God’s love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. (SDA adventist.org)

You may need to retract your claim; 'No one believes these are ceremonial laws.'

And any law that is not ceremonial can be implied by the Ten Commandments or the two great laws upon which all law is founded. Is there no limit to the mental gymnastics to which people will resort to hate on the moral law given at Sinai?

Are you saying that there are ten moral laws or are you saying that there are twelve moral laws?

 

[klutedavid]

Proponents of antinomianism can't seem to agree on whether the ceremonial and moral laws are separate or not. Fascinating.

Since you seem to know everything regarding the scripture, you may need to answer a few questions.

1) What is the law of liberty?

2) What is the law of Christ?

3) Are the following two commandments separate to the ten or the twelve commandments in the law?

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

 

[klutedavid]

Would anyone admit to this charge even if they believed it? Behold, the diversionary rhetoric is not convincing anyone. The ones who come to your aid already believe what you claim.

Believing that Christians should, by the grace of God, keep the ten commandments to the best of their God-given ability does not equate to rejecting Christ's substitutionary atonement, no matter how hard you work to conflate the two.

Scripture simply does not teach a lawless covenant, even if people choose to do so.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 NIV

Last I checked, heaven and earth had not disappeared, nor has everything been accomplished.

If not the smallest letter will disappear from the law, then how do you explain that hundreds of laws disappeared from God's law?

 

[Bob S]

Great comeback Kd. It would be a great idea if some would engage brain before allowing fingers to hit the keyboard.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

Are you sure that no one believes that the moral laws, such as afflicting widows and orphans, is a ceremonial law.

Oh, quite.
No sane person believes that the laws you quoted are ceremonial. Not one. Such a belief would pretty much preclude sanity, I think. (Although I sense some kind of ridiculous trap on the horizon.)

Only the ten commandments were inside the ark of the covenant.

What is that supposed to prove to us?

Seventh Day Adventist

28 Fundamental Beliefs

The Law of God
The great principles of God’s law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God’s love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. (SDA adventist.org)

A copy-and-paste from adventist.org is not authoritative to me.
And a brief statement of belief does not mean that everything about the subject has been said and that nothing else applies.
And I don't understand why I'm having to explain that to literate, intelligent adults.

You may need to retract your claim; 'No one believes these are ceremonial laws.'

Not gonna happen.
Unless I go insane.

Are you saying that there are ten moral laws or are you saying that there are twelve moral laws?

Is the concept of categories and sub-categories foreign to you?

Since you seem to know everything regarding the scripture

I have never claimed this, but I do recognize that which is plain and simple.

you may need to answer a few questions.

Clever-sounding, but actually just ridiculous drama.

1) What is the law of liberty?
2) What is the law of Christ?

Isn't the Scripture clear on these items? How readest thou?

3) Are the following two commandments separate to the ten or the twelve commandments in the law?

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

I know of no single body of twelve commandments. Again: Categories; sub-categories, Gentlemen. Not rocket science. This is an expression of the two great commandments with the added stipulation that loving God with all our hearts, etc. includes accepting the Incarnation of Christ, God The Son, as truth. If I've omitted or mishandled anything or simply expressed something contrary to your agenda, please feel free to ask me another irrelevant, mind-numbing, straw man question.

If not the smallest letter will disappear from the law, then how do you explain that hundreds of laws disappeared from God's law?

How can I explain something that hasn't happened? The entire Law is still there, serving as it is intended to do until heaven and earth disappear and everything has been accomplished, in accordance with Scripture.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Oh, quite.
No sane person believes that the laws you quoted are ceremonial. Not one. Such a belief would pretty much preclude sanity, I think. (Although I sense some kind of ridiculous trap on the horizon.)

What is that supposed to prove to us?

A copy-and-paste from adventist.org is not authoritative to me.
And a brief statement of belief does not mean that everything about the subject has been said and that nothing else applies.
And I don't understand why I'm having to explain that to literate, intelligent adults.

Not gonna happen.
Unless I go insane.

Is the concept of categories and sub-categories foreign to you?

I have never claimed this, but I do recognize that which is plain and simple.

Clever-sounding, but actually just ridiculous drama.

Isn't the Scripture clear on these items? How readest thou?

I know of no single body of twelve commandments. Again: Categories; sub-categories, Gentlemen. Not rocket science. This is an expression of the two great commandments with the added stipulation that loving God with all our hearts, etc. includes accepting the Incarnation of Christ, God The Son, as truth. If I've omitted or mishandled anything or simply expressed something contrary to your agenda, please feel free to ask me another irrelevant, mind-numbing, straw man question.

How can I explain something that hasn't happened? The entire Law is still there, serving as it is intended to do until heaven and earth disappear and everything has been accomplished, in accordance with Scripture.

Great comeback, Brother Dave. Some of these comments to which you reply sound like they might originate in "the zone between the zones."

 

[klutedavid]

Oh, quite.
No sane person believes that the laws you quoted are ceremonial. Not one. Such a belief would pretty much preclude sanity, I think. (Although I sense some kind of ridiculous trap on the horizon.)

Not a trap but there are church movements that only proclaim the ten commandments. I can assure you that they are out there.

A copy-and-paste from adventist.org is not authoritative to me.

Nor does it carry any weight for me either.

Nevertheless the SDA believe they are under the ten commandments and virtually no other law except perhaps for a food law here and there.

And a brief statement of belief does not mean that everything about the subject has been said and that nothing else applies.
And I don't understand why I'm having to explain that to literate, intelligent adults.

I understand completely what your saying but some other folk do not.

Not gonna happen. Unless I go insane.

It happened already.

Is the concept of categories and sub-categories foreign to you?

No not really except Jesus was not talking to me when He was talking about the greatest commandments in the law.

I strictly adhere to the context that each letter exhibits. Who were the target audience and why was Jesus discussing a topic.

I have never claimed this, but I do recognize that which is plain and simple.

Let's say I asked you what the greatest commandment in the New Testament was, what would you say it was and why?

Isn't the Scripture clear on these items? How readest thou?

Gentiles are not under the law.

I know of no single body of twelve commandments. Again: Categories; sub-categories, Gentlemen. Not rocket science. This is an expression of the two great commandments with the added stipulation that loving God with all our hearts, etc. includes accepting the Incarnation of Christ, God The Son, as truth. If I've omitted or mishandled anything or simply expressed something contrary to your agenda, please feel free to ask me another irrelevant, mind-numbing, straw man question.

How do you fit the rules that the prophets listed into your legal arrangement?

How can I explain something that hasn't happened? The entire Law is still there, serving as it is intended to do until heaven and earth disappear and everything has been accomplished, in accordance with Scripture.

Your not reading the scripture carefully enough.

 

[sparow]

If one law is abrogated then the rest follow in like fashion. Jesus said, not one letter of the law will fail. As soon as one letter of the law failed then the entire law failed.

That is a moral law and not a ceremonial law.

Another way to understand this is that there were still elements of legalism around.

Constantine did not mention a Sabbath day and his law had nothing to do with the Sabbath law.

There is no historical evidence that the papacy issued any law regarding changing the Sabbath day. Sunday was widely honored way before the popes took their seats.

Correct, as God does not change so the law never changes either. So the only conclusion is the law was fulfilled by the Christ and hence was nullified. Thus the sinner can now be saved.

Obeying the law is no defense against loving the things of this world or loving this world. The law is useless when you do not visit people that are imprisoned. The law counts for nothing if you do not forgive or even love filthy money.

But the law did change because circumcision is no longer valid. Your argument collapses on this point. As I said before, God does not change and not one letter of the law will change. Unless the law is really a shadow and has been replaced.

Hebrews 10
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things...

It would seem Christ's warning, "Beware lest you be deceived," was in vain.

<<There is no historical evidence that the papacy issued any law regarding changing the Sabbath day. Sunday was widely honored way before the popes took their seats.>>

I am not sure what you are arguing about; there is ample evidence.

Pope Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.)

Pope Sylvester I by decree changed or transferred the Sabbath to Sunday; this is about 250 years before what we know as the Papacy came into existence. There is no change made in scripture, only by the teachings of men. Pope as I am sure you know is merely another ford for Father, or boss.


Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday? There is a lot of information here that you could test.


It is true that many professing Christians were keeping Sunday by the third century; so as not to be confused for Jews who were being persecuted; but there is a scripture they for got:


Matthew 16:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

 

[sparow]

First of all the "law" was 613 laws not 10. Do you not give Jesus credit for His blood that covers our sins? Jesus fulfilled the laws of the Sinai covenant. That is what He came to accomplish. He did what no man could accomplish and now His blood covers all past, present and future sins. We are righteous before the Father.

Ritual laws of the Sinai covenant ended at Calvary. All laws concerning morality are forever.

Note: the old covenant laws found in the book of the law had many laws dealing with morality.

Jesus was the Lamb of God since the rock foundation; what was the rock foundation; The Ten Commandments written on stone with God's finger. Jesus is the daily sacrifice, for sins committed in ignorance, which will save many. Also Jesus had to die because the covenant had been broken; but there are conditions to this; first one has to be in covenant with God, secondly, if one is conscious of one's sin one is required to repent before being forgiven.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

there are church movements that only proclaim the ten commandments. I can assure you that they are out there.

I know they are out there. But that doesn't prove that anyone believes the commands you listed are part of a religious ceremony.

Nor does it carry any weight for me either.

Nevertheless the SDA believe they are under the ten commandments and virtually no other law except perhaps for a food law here and there.

It seems to carry enough weight with you that you feel comfortable making short, sweeping generalizations about what Adventists believe.

It happened already.

I don't recall ever retracting any claim, but I appreciate the attempt to enlighten me with what I must assume is some flash of cognitive dissonance.

I strictly adhere to the context that each letter exhibits.

If you choose to thus limit your hermeneutical toolkit, who am I to deny you your liberty of conscience?

Let's say I asked you what the greatest commandment in the New Testament was, what would you say it was and why?

Against my best judgment, I'm compelled to answer this obviously pharisaical hypothetical. I'm going to go with:
Mat 22:37 KJV Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
And for the why, I'm going with:
Because Jesus said so directly afterwards:
Mat 22:38 KJV This is the first and great commandment.
(Doubtless, He is referring to the Old Testament here, but notice: It is being confirmed and recorded in the New, which is not even recognized as Scripture until, at the very earliest, 30+ years later in the 2nd epistle of Peter, in Ch. 3, v. 16., and is not available even as a semi-cohesive whole for another 100 years being, as it was at the time, largely a matter of antisemitism.)
He then proceeds to debunk dispensationalism and covenant theology in verses 42 through 45. It is difficult to discern by folks who have a strong conviction that there is more than one way to be saved, however.

Gentiles are not under the law.

This is your collective definition of the law of liberty and the law of Christ?

How do you fit the rules that the prophets listed into your legal arrangement?

I don't have a "legal arrangement," but:
Mat 4:4 KJV But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Your not reading the scripture carefully enough.

When I open a Bible and look, I see that the laws which you claim have disappeared are still there.

 

[Bob S]

2Cor3:
Are we beginning to praise ourselves again? Some people need letters that speak well of them. Do we need those kinds of letters, either to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter. You are written on our hearts. Everyone knows you and reads you. 3 You make it clear that you are a letter from Christ. You are the result of our work for God. You are a letter written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God. You are a letter written not on tablets made out of stone but on human hearts.

4 Through Christ, we can be sure of this before God. 5 In ourselves we are not able to claim anything for ourselves. The power to do what we do comes from God. 6 He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

To those who feel we must observe the ritual laws of the old covenant please explain why Paul, the ambassador of our Savior Jesus Christ, wrote that we are not under the covenant based on the written Law of Moses.

Paul goes on to write: 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Paul called the Galatians foolish because they allowed the Judaizers to persuade them to observe the Law of Moses. Do not allow anyone to persuade you to observe the ritual laws of the Law of Moses. Christians answer to a much higher calling, The Royal Law of Love.

 

[D.A. Wright]

The obsession with 2 Corinthians, Ch. 3, is fast becoming something eerily resembling vain repitition. They think they are heard for their much speaking, Jesus said. There is nothing but personal preference that points to 2 Cor 3 as being a lens through which all other Scripture must be viewed. No amount of trumpeting will make it so. The Bible calls for no such monotonous demonstration.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Great comeback Kd. It would be a great idea if some would engage brain before allowing fingers to hit the keyboard.

Wouldn't it, though?