GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

klutedavid

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You never showed where a command by Jesus abrogates any law.
If one law is abrogated then the rest follow in like fashion. Jesus said, not one letter of the law will fail. As soon as one letter of the law failed then the entire law failed.
like if two men are behaving recklessly and if a woman passing by is injured the two men will receive the same injury, if she dies the men are put to death, an eye for an eye, a life for a life; if the woman was pregnant and has a miscarriage, I vaguely remember, the men had to pay a price of two goats and two bulls.
That is a moral law and not a ceremonial law.
In 363 C.E. the Council of Laodicea prohibited Christians from observing the Biblical Sabbath and encouraged them to work on Saturday and rest on the Sunday. The fact that this edict was issued with prohibitions indicates that Sunday worship was still not totally accepted by followers of Christ.
Another way to understand this is that there were still elements of legalism around.
Constantine believe he had changed the day
Constantine did not mention a Sabbath day and his law had nothing to do with the Sabbath law.
as the papacy thought they had changed the day; did they change it? Yes and no. Yes they changed it for those who followed their direction; NO they did not change it for those who follow God, nor did they change the law by which they will be judged.
There is no historical evidence that the papacy issued any law regarding changing the Sabbath day. Sunday was widely honored way before the popes took their seats.
If even one law is abolished in the law of Moses then the rest follow in like fashion.
Correct, as God does not change so the law never changes either. So the only conclusion is the law was fulfilled by the Christ and hence was nullified. Thus the sinner can now be saved.
I have heard this before, is it a quote from the Bible; I have seen in the Bible, if one breaks one Law one breaks them all; in other words if one does not keep the Sabbath, judgement wise, one may as well have committed murder; all have sinned but some are called and chosen and some are not.
Obeying the law is no defense against loving the things of this world or loving this world. The law is useless when you do not visit people that are imprisoned. The law counts for nothing if you do not forgive or even love filthy money.
The law has not changed because sin has not changed; when the Law is abrogated sin ceases to exist.
But the law did change because circumcision is no longer valid. Your argument collapses on this point. As I said before, God does not change and not one letter of the law will change. Unless the law is really a shadow and has been replaced.

Hebrews 10
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things...
 
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BobRyan

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Hello ECR.

That the Sabbath was made for mankind, is an old creation instruction. You missed the fact that we are members of the new creation. New creatures based on the new image of Christ.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

You must be born again.

Or ... to quote the actual Bible -- we are "new Covenant" Christians with the "LAW of God written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-13 instead of "abolished" and/or "abrogated"
 
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BobRyan

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"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 -- Matt 22
"Love God with all your heart" Duet 6:5
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2
For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

the New Covenant has the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart Jer 31:31-34... and we are ... New Covenant Christians

If one law is abrogated then the rest follow in like fashion

Not sure if you are making my point for me on purpose .. or just by accident.
 
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klutedavid

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"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 -- Matt 22
"Love God with all your heart" Duet 6:5
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2
For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

the New Covenant has the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart Jer 31:31-34... and we are ... New Covenant Christians



Not sure if you are making my point for me on purpose .. or just by accident.
A solid example of cherry picking verses to support an interpretation.

Bob, you need to follow the context in each letter and not randomly select verses as you do.

That is a nasty habit you have.
 
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klutedavid

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Or ... to quote the actual Bible -- we are "new Covenant" Christians with the "LAW of God written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-13 instead of "abolished" and/or "abrogated"
You threw over six hundred shadow laws in the dust bin, now throw the rest in that bin also.

As soon as circumcision failed the rest of the law also failed.

The Lord's commandments are what you are under now, not the law of Moses.
 
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klutedavid

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Or ... to quote the actual Bible -- we are "new Covenant" Christians with the "LAW of God written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-13 instead of "abolished" and/or "abrogated"
Love is written on our hearts as the two commandments in 1 John testify to.

God is love.
 
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BobRyan

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Love is written on our hearts as the two commandments in 1 John testify to.

God is love.


John does not quote "Love God with all your heart"...
not in 1 John ,
not in 2 John
not in 3 John
not in the Gospel of John
and not in the book of Revelation.

John never proposed that we delete all of scripture "except for the writing of John"

In Matt 22 Jesus said all of scripture -- all of God's Word is based on ... firmly established on these two commands from the Mosaic Law -- (and the Jews agreed with him)

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
 
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Crosstian

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If one law is abrogated then the rest follow in like fashion. Jesus said, not one letter of the law will fail. As soon as one letter of the law failed then the entire law failed. ...
Jesus actually said:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The heaven and earth Jesus spoke of are still here.

Peter knew when:

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Not a single letter has failed, nor ever will fail.

Psa_33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Psa_89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psa_119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
 
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Crosstian

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Love is written on our hearts as the two commandments in 1 John testify to.

God is love.
Let's fill out the definition of Love, from scripture, and also sin:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Who is the "liar"? What is "sin"? What is "doeth righteousness"? What are the "works of the devil"?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus walking. Hmmm.

Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

What "day" was Isaiah 61 fulfilled? Who was it being fulfilled by? Was this person filled with the Holy Spirit?

Did Jesus suffer for proper sabbath keeping (obedience to His Father), in the face of the traditions of men (which was sin)?

1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
 
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Crosstian

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God is love, is understood by His character, not an empty shell of a definition which is a wax nose, twisted to any shape one desires.

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
Exo 33:14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
Exo 33:15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
Exo 33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Exo 34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
Exo 34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
Exo 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Exo 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
Exo 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Notice God is quoting from Exodus 20:5-7:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Love of God, is keeping/glorifying His character alway.

The Ten Commandments reveals God's character, by which we are to be compared:

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The Law of Liberty that James refers to, is the very Ten Commandments:

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Psa_119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Love of God?

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What commandment and Law did James cite from? Remember, they had the OT, for the Jews were the caretakers of the "oracles of God".
 
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Crosstian

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2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

As the type, so the anti-type.

What is truth?

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa_119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 
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Crosstian

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The New Covenant itself, states:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote that God said, "my laws".

What "my laws" were being referred to?

Exo_16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Jer_6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jer_9:13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;

Jer_16:11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

Jer_26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

Jer_44:10 They are not humbled even unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers.

How about it Isaiah, is Jeremiah correct?

Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

How about it, as the Father speaks to the Son?

Pro_7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

What were the words of God's own mouth?

Psa_78:1 Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

Was there a Law that God spake?

Exo_16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
 
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Crosstian

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What would be the point of Paul saying the following if as so many assert that the Law (Ten Commandments) was abolished,

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
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klutedavid

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Jesus actually said:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The heaven and earth Jesus spoke of are still here.

Peter knew when:

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Not a single letter has failed, nor ever will fail.

Psa_33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Psa_89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psa_119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
You say that one letter of the law did not fail.

Well over six hundred laws failed so how do you explain that?
 
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klutedavid

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What would be the point of Paul saying the following if as so many assert that the Law (Ten Commandments) was abolished,

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law includes the ten commandments.

Only by walking in the Holy Spirit is every point in the whole law fulfilled.
 
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klutedavid

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2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

As the type, so the anti-type.

What is truth?

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa_119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
If you want the Lord's commandments read through 1 John.
 
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klutedavid

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What would be the point of Paul saying the following if as so many assert that the Law (Ten Commandments) was abolished,

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul said, 'the law', Paul did not say the ten commandments.

Please stop changing the text to support your claim.
 
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klutedavid

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2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

As the type, so the anti-type.
What has that got to do with the OP?
Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
The text says 'law', the text does not say the ten commandments. I should not have to sit here and correct people like this.
Psa_119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
I agree with that.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
John was talking about the Lord's commandments listed in 1 John 3.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
 
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Bob S

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Hi Crosstian, you seem to have an answer for all of what Klukedavid has posted and so I have a question for you to give your opinion.

In 2Cor 3:6-11 Paul writes that the ministry of death, 10 commandments, have been done away. KJV In another version it is telling us that the 10 were transitory. Since you have used so many verses from 1, 2 & 3 JN that refer to commandments, how would you reconcile that any of them were referring to the old covenant for Israel only ten commandments?

Jesus wrote in Jn15 that He kept the Law, Sinai covenant, and asks us to keep His commands, 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you Then Jesus adds in the next sentence,
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
and then
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
nailed i
Is Jesus God? Jesus lived under the old covenant and nailed it to the Cross. His new covenant asks us to Keep the Royal Law Of Love.

1Jn3:19-24 says it all concerning the commandments we are to live under. Notice those verses start out with:
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I know I am of the truth because I do believe in Jesus as my victorious Savior and my goal is to love one another as He loves me. The Plan of Salvation is pretty simple isn't it?
 
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klutedavid

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John does not quote "Love God with all your heart"... not in 1 John , not in 2 John not in 3 John not in the Gospel of John and not in the book of Revelation.
John gave you the Lord's commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

Do you deny that you are commanded to believe in the name of Jesus Christ?
John never proposed that we delete all of scripture "except for the writing of John"
You deleted over six hundred laws and then the pot claims the kettle deleted scripture?
In Matt 22 Jesus said all of scripture -- all of God's Word is based on ... firmly established on these two commands from the Mosaic Law -- (and the Jews agreed with him)
You deleted over six hundred laws and numerous laws that the prophets also gave to Israel. Then you quote the following commandment from the law which is not one of the ten commandments.

Matthew 22:39
The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Leviticus 19:18
'Love your neighbor as yourself'

As if you are somehow under the law.

You have the wrong commandments.


1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
 
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