God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

Sophrosyne · Feb 10, 2014

from scratch said:
Who is at war with the Ten Commandments? I think you try your bestest to show everyone who doesn't keep the 7th day Sabbath is. Paul even says we're delivered from them in Romans 7.

Except himself of course. We know that James said if you break one law you break them all so by not keeping ALL of the Mosaic Law you are in effect breaking the Sabbath command. Not advocating keeping the whole Law is advocating breaking any and all of it, circumcision anyone?

Cribstyl · Feb 10, 2014

dcalling said:
This is a hard question, I tend to agree with BobRyan, that the 10 COMMANDMENTS is still in effect. The reason is all of them (except observe the Sabbath) clearly needs to be observed, i.e. Love God, don't kill.

The Sabbath one is really hard, I try my best not to do any company work on Sunday, not to buy anything on Sunday, but I do cook, drive, use internet. And I do it on Sunday instead of Saturday, because I believe as long as we just pick a day, the exact date doesn't matter, I am "observing the Sabbath" once a week None of church members I know do this, but I think that is fine too, because the thief who died with Jesus and went to heaven most likely didn't observe one day of Sabbath.

Still in effect for who???
Why do you believe that God's word commands you to keep the ten Commnadments? What scriptures is given to compel the Gentiles to be under the law?
The fact that sabbath was a sign between God and the Children of Israel proves that Sabbath was not given to the world. The fact of Sabbath given in the law prove that God did not command the world to keep the law.

Sophrosyne · Feb 10, 2014

Cribstyl said:
Still in effect for who???
Why do you believe that God's word commands you to keep the ten Commnadments? What scriptures is given to compel the Gentiles to be under the law?
The fact that sabbath was a sign between God and the Children of Israel proves that Sabbath was not given to the world. The fact of Sabbath given in the law prove that God did not command the world to keep the law.

I asked for proof that the Sabbath was upon anyone other than Israel (and their servants) and equated that there was never punishment for breaking it upon those not of Israel and got a run around from the Adventist crowd. They want to insist that the Sabbath was for all mankind but for some reason only Israel was punished for breaking it.

FredVB · Feb 10, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
You aren't agreeing with anyone as the Sabbath command is about keeping Saturday not Sunday so that makes you breaking the 10 commandments. The 10 are part of the Mosaic Law inseparable from the rest of the Law contrary to what people want to teach of them so by demanding or trying to "keep" the 10 you must also keep the dietary laws, fabric/clothing laws, cleanliness laws, and other laws listed in Leviticus plus you must be circumsized and attend a Jewish Temple too. If you aren't doing all of this properly God sees you as a sinner for even attempting it.
Making your "Sabbath" Sunday is obliging yourself to sin. Christians are not required to keep Mosaic Law including the Sabbath.

We are all sinners, whatever we observe or don't. Yahweh God sees us that way, unless we come to be in Christ, in whom we will all be delivered.

Mark 2:27 Sabbath is made for man.

Cribstyl · Feb 10, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
I asked for proof that the Sabbath was upon anyone other than Israel (and their servants) and equated that there was never punishment for breaking it upon those not of Israel and got a run around from the Adventist crowd. They want to insist that the Sabbath was for all mankind but for some reason only Israel was punished for breaking it.

I understand and agree.
It seems clear that Paul taught that Gentiles were foreigners and strangers of the covenants. It seems clear that when Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews", it was because God's promises and covenants was directly to only a circumcizing people.

The good news is that in the fulness of time, God would accept other nations.
Jews and even Peter could not handle the truth head on, so the Holy Spirit gave him a dream.

Godisgood12 · Feb 10, 2014

Cribstyl said:
I understand and agree.
It seems clear that Paul taught that Gentiles were foreigners and strangers of the covenants. It seems clear that when Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews", it was because God's promises and covenants was directly to only a circumcizing people.

The good news is that in the fulness of time, God would accept other nations.
Jews and even Peter could not handle the truth head on, so the Holy Spirit gave him a dream.

Your saying that Abraham was a Jew and circumscised?

Just admit that doing evil isn't good(of God) already.

It really isn't helping people by causing problems, it's called vexation, evil. Woah unto those that call good, evil and evil, good.

Sophrosyne · Feb 10, 2014

Fred V B said:
We are all sinners, whatever we observe or don't. Yahweh God sees us that way, unless we come to be in Christ, in whom we will all be delivered.

Mark 2:27 Sabbath is made for man.

The "man" talked about here is an audience of Jews whom Jesus was addressing. This audience wasn't Gentiles. If I was talking at a union rally and said something addressing them as "men" I wouldn't be addressing non union workers by default in a third world country but union workers.

Sophrosyne · Feb 10, 2014

Cribstyl said:
I understand and agree.
It seems clear that Paul taught that Gentiles were foreigners and strangers of the covenants. It seems clear that when Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews", it was because God's promises and covenants was directly to only a circumcizing people.

The good news is that in the fulness of time, God would accept other nations.
Jews and even Peter could not handle the truth head on, so the Holy Spirit gave him a dream.

Yes, we have had to argue endlessly the following:
Keep Law = mandatory circumcision
Not keep Law = no circumcision required
Thus one cannot use the excuse of being a Christian to opt out of circumcision in order to properly keep the Law. If one does become circumcised one cannot use the excuse of being a Christian to circumvent the obligations of the Law upon the circumcised unless one totally decides to abandon keeping of the Law.
When I say keep the Law I mean using it as a standard to define sin and actions contrary to the Law would be sinful to those upon whom keep it. One could decide to as far as ceremony is keep Jewish traditions with no thought of being right/wrong for failing to do so (sinning if one does not).

from scratch · Feb 10, 2014

Fred V B said:
We are all sinners, whatever we observe or don't. Yahweh God sees us that way, unless we come to be in Christ, in whom we will all be delivered.

Mark 2:27 Sabbath is made for man.

No. The verse contrasts mankind with the man. The phrase τὸν ἄνθρωπον isn't the same as ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

from scratch · Feb 10, 2014

Godisgood12 said:
Your saying that Abraham was a Jew and circumscised?

Just admit that doing evil isn't good(of God) already.

It really isn't helping people by causing problems, it's called vexation, evil. Woah unto those that call good, evil and evil, good.

Where did Cribstyl say Abraham was a Jew?

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

Fred V B said:
We are all sinners, whatever we observe or don't. Yahweh God sees us that way, unless we come to be in Christ, in whom we will all be delivered.

Mark 2:27 Sabbath is made for man.

Indeed - it is made for 'mankind' not "mankind made for the Sabbath" in Mark 2:27.

God made "mankind" in Genesis 1 and 2.

God did not "make Jews" by forming them of the dust of the ground and no text says "God made Jews" as if by direct creation in Gen 1 or 2.

Thus even the sunday keeping sources admit that mankind kept the Sabbath starting in Eden.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

And even they admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the "moral law" of God still binding on the saints today.

As we all know.

in Christ,

Bob

from scratch · Feb 13, 2014

BobRyan said:
Indeed - it is made for 'mankind' not "mankind made for the Sabbath" in Mark 2:27.

God made "mankind" in Genesis 1 and 2.

God did not "make Jews" by forming them of the dust of the ground and no text says "God made Jews" as if by direct creation in Gen 1 or 2.

Thus even the sunday keeping sources admit that mankind kept the Sabbath starting in Eden.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

And even they admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the "moral law" of God still binding on the saints today.

As we all know.

in Christ,

Bob

Not according to the original written text.

No the Sunday keepers as you call us admit no such thing.

Why do you seem to insist everyone but primarily the SDA are ignorant fools? You can't support your doctrines from the Bible.

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

These sunday sources affirm the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God - binding since Eden on all mankind - and still binding on the saints today.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

from scratch said:
. Bugkiller showed you from the same sources what you intend to show (prove) isn't the intent of your sources. For instance I think its Stanley who says the Christian Sabbath is Sunday. Do I need to fetch the quote again?

I think you need to remember that "details matter" -

The way that works is to 'notice' that I refer to them as "Sunday sources" -- my claim is not that they do not try to "bend the 4th commandment" my point is that they claim it still applies and that all mankind is still obligated by the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God -- and that as given by God it was "The SEVENTH day" in Eden and remained that same day to the NT time of the cross.

Irrefutable and never touched by Bugkiller - if you have a place where he addressed it remotely - please show us. I think this is the point where his argument fizzled.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

from scratch said:
Not according to the original written text.

No the Sunday keepers as you call us admit no such thing.

Why do you seem to insist everyone but primarily the SDA are ignorant fools? You can't support your doctrines from the Bible.

Your wild assertions are not supported by the actual text in the documents.

So why keep repeating them as if that helps?

in Christ,

Bob

from scratch · Feb 13, 2014

BobRyan said:
Indeed - it is made for 'mankind' not "mankind made for the Sabbath" in Mark 2:27.

God made "mankind" in Genesis 1 and 2.

God did not "make Jews" by forming them of the dust of the ground and no text says "God made Jews" as if by direct creation in Gen 1 or 2.

Thus even the sunday keeping sources admit that mankind kept the Sabbath starting in Eden.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

And even they admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the "moral law" of God still binding on the saints today.

As we all know.

in Christ,

Bob

I repeat post 249 for those who missed it.

No. The verse contrasts mankind with the man. The phrase τὸν ἄνθρωπον isn't the same as ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

Notice how this "sunday keeping source" argues for
1. the TEN Commandments as the MORAL Law of God - all TEN.
2. The Sabbath starting in EDEN - and kept by mankind even then.

========================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

[FONT=&quot]Here Spurgeon's "Baptist Confession of Faith" insists the Sabbath was "changed"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Though admitting that from Creation - from Eden mankind kept it as the seventh day of the week -- until that 4th commandment was "bent" by man made tradition to point to week-day-1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Section 22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Point 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.[/FONT]

BobRyan · Feb 13, 2014

from scratch said:
I repeat post 249 for those who missed it.

No. The verse contrasts mankind with the man. The phrase τὸν ἄνθρωπον isn't the same as ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

[FONT=&quot]27 Jesus said to them, "" The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (G444 Anthropos)
28 ""So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" - Man. [/FONT]G444

[FONT=&quot]And "Made for Mankind" in -- Man G444 Mark 2:27-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAN in Mark 2:27 and 28 [/FONT] ἄνθρωπος

VictorC · Feb 13, 2014

BobRyan said:
[FONT=&quot]Here Spurgeon's "Baptist Confession of Faith" insists the Sabbath was "changed"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Though admitting that from Creation - from Eden mankind kept it as the seventh day of the week -- until that 4th commandment was "bent" by man made tradition to point to week-day-1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Bob, how do you reconcile this error stemming from a historic ECF with Scripture's testimony that the sabbath originated during the lifetime of Moses? Why should we replace Scripture with ECFs that contain problems that are so easily recognized?

from scratch · Feb 13, 2014

BobRyan said:
These sunday sources affirm the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God - binding since Eden on all mankind - and still binding on the saints today.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

I think you need to remember that "details matter" -

The way that works is to 'notice' that I refer to them as "Sunday sources" -- my claim is not that they do not try to "bend the 4th commandment" my point is that they claim it still applies and that all mankind is still obligated by the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God -- and that as given by God it was "The SEVENTH day" in Eden and remained that same day to the NT time of the cross.

Irrefutable and never touched by Bugkiller - if you have a place where he addressed it remotely - please show us. I think this is the point where his argument fizzled.

I quote Bugkiller from here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7680094/#post61453199

We find these words at Charles Stanley's Handbook for Christian Living: Biblical Answers to Life's ... - Charles F. Stanley - Google Books page 37 -

We still have a moral obligation to observe the Sabbath.

The Christian Sabbath, through the New Covenant is the Lord's Day.

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead.

We find this on a devotional page - The Fourth Commandment | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Moreover, keeping the day of rest holy also showed ones love for God. The rationale for Sabbath observance is the imitation of the Creator, who worked for six days and then rested on the seventh (Gen. 1:12:3). Fundamentally, we show our love for God in our desire and effort to be holy as He is holy; His holiness is a pattern for us to copy in our everyday lives (Eph. 5:12). The ancient Israelite was duty bound to structure his entire life as God structured His, with designated periods of work and rest.
The same principle of imitation applies to new covenant believers as well, although we no longer observe a seventh-day Sabbath. Instead, the first day of the week is set aside for Christian worship. There is no specific change in day mentioned in the New Testament, but the change was good and proper. Under the old covenant, the Sabbath celebrated Gods work of creation. We celebrate Gods creation under the new covenant as well, only now the focus is on the new creation in Christ (Gal. 6:15), which was established in His resurrection on the first day of the week. (bolded highligh is my addition for attention.)

It can clerarly be seen that none of the above theologians promote the keeping of the 7th day sabbath. They in fact refer to Sunday generally when using the word sabbath.

Bugkiller requoted them here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7680094-2/#post61529018

and for your convenience -

There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. DL Moody

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead. Charles Stanley

Instead, the first day of the week is set aside for Christian worship. There is no specific change in day mentioned in the New Testament, but the change was good and proper. Under the old covenant, the Sabbath celebrated Gods work of creation. We celebrate Gods creation under the new covenant as well, only now the focus is on the new creation in Christ (Gal. 6:15), which was established in His resurrection on the first day of the week. RC Sproul

in Christ,

Bob

Well I guess you can continue to promote religion and death if you wish.

As Bugkiller showed they don't do as you say. They don't promote the 4th commandment. As such they don't promote the law as an obligation of Christians.

I quote you - I think you need to remember that "details matter" -

You choose to ignore the fact these people worship on Sunday and not Saturday as a rule and even call Sunday the Christian Sabbath. In ignoring them you say Bugkiller never touched on them. For your argument he showed your witnesses to be unreliable at best. I would like you to provide where you addressed the quotes Bugkiller provided from the same sources in that debate. They're either not there or I've over looked them. If you simply say I over looked them I'll take it as they're indeed non existent. I think that is the case. So link your argument or quote it with post number.

They preach against sin not an obligation to the law. Yes I understand the ammunition they provide. That is most unfortunate.

In your quote form R C Sproul I find you quoted from the first paragraph and ellipsis this (Following Gods law, therefore, does not mean obeying it to secure our right standing in His heavenly court, for we can stand before Him by His grace alone (Eph. 2:89).) out of the quote skipping 2 paragraphs. Why did you delete the above blue bolded quote from you quote?

Now what exactly are you saying Bugkiller never touched on? He even quoted the same people and from the same sources?

God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

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